Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It is sad you don't have friends... it is really is, but that's no reason to take stabs at those who do.
Nobody is geting something for nothing.... every XP point is earned by simple hard work the way it was meant to be. Just because you do not agree with it does not make it a cheat. The fact that it affects YOUR gameplay a grand total of 0% should show you how pathetic this complaint is.
FireNuke, so you are saying that nobody should ever talk about anything that dosen't directly impact them?
I have a concern about a flawed game mechanic. I am going to discuss it if I like.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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Alderian/anti-plvlers,
Until you state a concrete reason why powerleveling affects you and your life and your goals, then you dont have much for argument. So far you have never provided concrete evidence other than envy. You are envious of people doing it because they are doing it with less work..
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Um, no. Not all of us.
It is a known fact that the devs released this game with MAJOR balance issues and that they are still working day and night to grapple with those issues. Because they released the game in the shape it was in last April, they had to leave their data-mining and gathering software from beta in place so they could figure out where the holes are and patch them. The burn/provoke nerf is an example. The Hasten nerf is another. A few other things coming down the pike are still further examples. They make these adjustments to the game based on the data they collect. These data include things like "how fast does it take builds with powerset X or Y to level relative to one another?"
When you sit there in the train station PLing, you aren't playing the build, which means any data they have on your build in their data mining procedures are faulty (your build is irrelevent in the train station). However they can't know you levelled this way, and so you are throwing their data and balancing attempts out of whack by doing this.
I get impacted by this when nerfs get thrown into the game because "people are levelling too quickly" -- which decreases my enjoyment of the game and increases how much grinding I have to do. I get impacted because people who have no idea how to use their level 1-32 powers since they've only had them for 3 hours go into a level 33 mission and get owned by it because they don't know what they are doing, /petition it as too hard, and the devs tone that mission down -- thereby leaving it hopelessly easy and trivial for someone who has played all 33 levels at their keyboard and knows their character inside-out.
PLing impacts my game-play indirectly, by causing the balance data mining to be thrown out of whack, but it DOES impact it. If it didn't -- if the devs had said, "Game finished, no more balancing to be done," then I wouldn't care. Since the devs ARE still balancing things, and they clearly ARE taking note of how fast people are levelling, then it does impact me, because dev decisions that negatively affect me could be made as a result of the PLing.
Again, I don't care what level you are. But I *do* mind if suddenly my missions all become too easy or I need 3x more xp to level up because of your PLing.
F
Firenuke, using your logic, which is similiar to countless other, there could be any amount of cheats. The game could be like a play station game where you enter codes. How would this affect anyone's game but yours. Clearly, the designers did not create a cheat function, so there you go.
Additionally, I enjoy playing with a wide variety of people. Playing with is the main idea.
You never addressed my suggestion to play on your friend's level. I have done that many time to help people through a mission, so what's different about you?
IAW COH Rules of Conduct:
You will not exploit any bug in City of Heroes and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug ( bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits ) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of City of Heroes . Bugs should be promptly reported via 'Ask A Question' at http://support.cityofheroes.com.
It is my opinion to gain experience without risk is unnatural and is therefore a bug in the game mechanics and should be duly reported. I will accept from many that while the devs have not deemed it an exploit yet (operative word here) it is something that Ill simply report and included in the report a viable solution that experience should not be gained beyond a set distance from a defeated villain.
IAW COH policies and support section of their website:
Heroes can earn experience points in two different ways. They are:
By defeating as many villains possible. The more difficult the villain, the more XP your hero will earn. Your hero can earn XP defeating villains solo or in teams with other heroes.
By completing the assigned mission. Not only will the hero earn XP from defeating the villains in the mission, upon the completion of a mission, the hero will also be awarded additional XP for completing the mission. Missions can be attempted solo or in teams. XP earned from completing missions will be adjusted based on the level of the hero and the villain as well as number of team members.
So in order to gain experience you must defeat villians either solo (or on a team) or complete mission.
This is not a passive activity since the definition according to websters of a team or team work is:
Team /teem/ n. Two or more persons working together.
Teamwork /teemwerk/ n. Combined action, cooperation.
Simply being on a team does merit the reward. You must be be bringing some form of action to be considered part of the team, otherwise you are taking advantage of a "bug" within the game that grants you an unnatural benefit.
Doc Endeavor - (50) FF Defender
Gravewalker - (40) Emp Defender
Duty: The sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things, you can never do more-you should never wish to do less.
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You can refer to one of my earlier posts if you like, however I'll do my best to repeat it now.
There is a loophole involving SKing and then the master joining a team while the SK is out of range. The SK gets much higher xp than is intended. I'm afraid I don't know the details. There are other such "loopholes".
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That isn't PL'ing, that is exploiting a loophole. Do refer to the title of the thread. I've got absolutely no problem with loophole exploiters having their loopholes closed (or for that matter being banned).
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A level 1 simply SKd to a level 40 is not power leveling. It's just laziness.
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Sorry, but that is using a special definition at odds with what most people understand power levelling to be. Heck, you don't even have to be outside the 8 level range. . .PL technically includes having a friend team you and you stand off somewhere else and do nothing to contribute to the earning of xps.
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You can refer to one of my earlier posts if you like, however I'll do my best to repeat it now.
There is a loophole involving SKing and then the master joining a team while the SK is out of range. The SK gets much higher xp than is intended. I'm afraid I don't know the details. There are other such "loopholes".
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That isn't PL'ing, that is exploiting a loophole. Do refer to the title of the thread. I've got absolutely no problem with loophole exploiters having their loopholes closed (or for that matter being banned).
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A level 1 simply SKd to a level 40 is not power leveling. It's just laziness.
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Sorry, but that is using a special definition at odds with what most people understand power levelling to be. Heck, you don't even have to be outside the 8 level range. . .PL technically includes having a friend team you and you stand off somewhere else and do nothing to contribute to the earning of xps.
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I stated what I believed PLing to be from nearly the begining and have been defending the stance since.
I don't think my definition is too far from what many think. Granted there are some on both sides that are at odds with it. However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.
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Erratic, this is the third time in this thread alone you have gotten hung up on arguing semantics and definitions rather than focusing on the main thrust of the arguements. Hopefully this is not your only tactic to argue your case?
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Its not a tactic, its avoiding the fuzzy-think that some here apparently like to engage in.
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Well, some folks apparantly consider just grouping with high levels powerleveling, no matter if the lower level person is fighting alongside the higher level or not.
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The game was designed with such in mind, hence the sidekick system. If you're working at the general level of the group you're not getting xp notably faster than playing in a group of your level. There are of course tricks to the trade, like SK'ing to someone at the low end of the group, say SK'ing to the level 24 in a group that spans to level 28.
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Others define it as just when you team up thusly and leave the lower level parked in a safe place, going to hunt mobs that are no threat to the high level so the lower level gets scads of XP for just standing there.
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Its not the only definition I use, but it was the one that I have been referring to.
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Most folks are having issues with just the second category.
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Some folks anyway. Again, if you want to park yourself at the tram station I see little difference than going along and hanging at the rear ready to run at the drop of a hat. Why the one should be villified and the other be acceptable is strange to me.
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Let's have some fun with facts.
Fact: Some Devs put time and effort to make a game for people to PLAY
Fact: A multiplayer game means you are playing with OTHER people. By defintion your game is affected by others. A mild example would be that you cannot occupy the exact same area at the exact same time as another player.
Fact: The rules do state something about bugs in the game that cause "unintended and unnatural benefits." ( Rule number 18 at the front of this very forum)
Can we please ditch the jealousy argument? That is quite possibly the dumbest argument I've ever heard.
How can anyone be envious of something that is available to everyone?
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However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.
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With sick delight I note that is Argument By Appeal to Mass Belief.
You know at one point most people believed the world was flat too.
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Well.. with the anti-PL's logic the trade system has to go too, can't have someone giving inf and goodies to another that didnt directly earn it his own damn self now can we... puuulease... Again... it IS being earned, if you cannot see this than maybe you should go back to grade school and stop harassing the adults.
Obviously there has been enough stated on this subject. There are those of us that don't have a problem with with others style of play, RP or whatever, and those of you that would have the rest of us follow your dictations.
Let those in charge handle it.. for good or for bad. They will make a decision that keeps as many of us as possible paying monthly, it is for the $ after all.
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Kazarak: I don't have to be hurt by something to oppose it. Cheating on taxes, lying about disability or welfare fraud doesn't hurt me, but I oppose them.
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But these things DO hurt you. The govt doesnt pay people welfare, the TAXPAYERS do!!! The more people cheat on disability and welfare the more taxes YOU pay. In contrast a PLers XP does not come from you it comes from a voluntary high level accomplice. Taxation is NOT voluntary. Your analogy is worthless.
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Again, if you want to park yourself at the tram station I see little difference than going along and hanging at the rear ready to run at the drop of a hat. Why the one should be villified and the other be acceptable is strange to me.
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As long as the person hanging in the back is in some danger from the mobs being fought I have no issue with it. You are taking the risk so should reap the rewards.
I only have an issue where the risk part is non-existant.
Risk mitigation, sure, using buffs and debuffs and other powers to lower your chances of taking a trip to the hospital while fighting, that's normal and fine.
But you are never going to convince me that the devs EVER intended for a player to deliberately be able to level up while AFK or otherwise taking zero risk to himself.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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Obviously there has been enough stated on this subject. There are those of us that don't have a problem with with others style of play, RP or whatever, and those of you that would have the rest of us follow your dictations.
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Aren't you trying to enforce your way of playing on everyone else? I mean, you are saying if you don't care then neither should anyone else.
Just because you have different ideas on the game doesn't mean you should be rude.
These are my views on PLing:
1.) PLing just cheats you out of gameplay fun. City of Heroes is not about just being level 50.
2.) You need time to learn about your powers: their advantages, disadvantages, and which situations to use them in. Also, you will not appreciate your powers if you did not earn them.
3.) I think PLing is only OK if you're using an alternate character. BUT! If you're making an alt, you did it to have more fun with the game again and PLing isn't fun.
One thing I will say: Duoing is far better than PLing. Just have a team-up with one healer and one offensive character, both the same level. You'll make relatively fast XP and you'll have lots of fun gameplay time.
I met a scrapper a while ago with my healer one day, and played with him in Boomtown. I kept asking, "Shouldn't we invite more teammates??" But he would just say, "With a good healer and scrapper/tanker, we can take on higher-level mobs ourselves" so we fought and leveled lots 
When we went back to the stores to buy enhancements, he said, "Brb, gonna log on another character". And wouldn't you know it, his main was nearly level 50 and he bought me all the DOs I needed for 20++!!
(I won't mention his name since I find that people start trying to make friends with level 50s when they know them by name, just to mooch money off of 'em)
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However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.
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With sick delight I note that is Argument By Appeal to Mass Belief.
You know at one point most people believed the world was flat too.
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I think at this point you are trolling and have ceased to argue any case at all.
I did not say that most agree with my belief, I said they agree with my definition.
You are slowing becoming more and more rude. Please refrain from being negative for negatives sake.
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As long as the person hanging in the back is in some danger from the mobs being fought I have no issue with it. You are taking the risk so should reap the rewards.
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There is no reason for them to be in any danger. Park yourself at the entry to a mission. Or even progress through the mission but take no actions to draw aggro and hang back out of aggro range. There are plenty of ways to "be along" and be almost as safe as standing at the tram station while friends street grind.
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But you are never going to convince me that the devs EVER intended for a player to deliberately be able to level up while AFK or otherwise taking zero risk to himself.
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I'm not trying to do so. The issue is why they should raise to attempting to deal with it when it (a) doesn't affect you or anyone else and (b) someone has to be doing the work somewhere.
I agree, I don't play that way. If I've got to be away from the keyboard for more than 5m, I drop group. But I don't have a problem with others doing so. They miss out on the game. Heck, I run my Scrapper's missions even though nothing in them is a challenge (if you want to talk about risk/reward--Dark/Inv is not challenged by anything a solo mission tosses his way) because I want the story arcs. If someone else wants to miss that, that's their loss in my book.
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However, judging from the thread, more agree with me than do not.
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With sick delight I note that is Argument By Appeal to Mass Belief.
You know at one point most people believed the world was flat too.
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I think at this point you are trolling and have ceased to argue any case at all.
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No trolling involved. Just pointing out more of your flawed argument technique.
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I did not say that most agree with my belief, I said they agree with my definition.
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Other's agreement with you has no meaning on the merit of your position. You can find people who subscribe to the idea that man has never visited the Moon too. And so what?
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You are slowing becoming more and more rude. Please refrain from being negative for negatives sake.
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Trust me, if I were being solely negative for negative's sake, you'd know it. How about you try to focus less on my style of posting and the matter at hand?
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The issue is why they should raise to attempting to deal with it when it (a) doesn't affect you or anyone else
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I really wonder if anyone reads anymore?
It's established it does affect others. It's a MULTI-player game. Your game has to affect other players.
If you get tired of broadcast spamming for Power levels, then your game has been affected. If so many low level heroes are hanging around the train that it cause lag when it other wise would not, the it has affected your game.
One does not play in a vacuum.
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I really wonder if anyone reads anymore?
It's established it does affect others. It's a MULTI-player game. Your game has to affect other players.
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I wonder if anyone thinks anymore? That's plainly silly.
What is going on in Brickstown has no impact on me when I'm in Atlas Park. . .and yet it it is a multiplayer game.
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If you get tired of broadcast spamming for Power levels, then your game has been affected.
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Oh geesh, one of those. . . .
Well you know, I have to put up with ugly costumes and stupid names too. Guess we should ban those too.
If you can't ignore your chat box you have major perceptual difficulties. If you can't manuever through areas with people coming and going, don't ever go near Back Alley Brawler or Ms. Liberty until you get a better computer and/or a better connection.
Talk about lame ways to show how you're impacted.
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I would just like to point out that I side kick my scrapper who is level 20 to my friend who is level 33. I have stealth and as long as I am not attacking, the mobs cannot see me. My friend is doing all the work and helping me to level. We chat the whole time and I am even chatting with others in my SG and on my friends list. We are enjoying the game and my friend is helping me out. Am I cheating you? No. This is how the game is intended. If you are mad about people sitting at the tram and not even moving, that's fine. That's your opinion. But based on how the game is set-up it is not cheating, except to cheat themselves out of a very cool game. The odd thing is I think Cuppajo may be on vacation or something, because for the amount of trolling and flaming this post has caused from both sides of the argument I am suprised this thread has not been nerfed yet.
I am not a PL'er, but only cause I'm the highest lvl in my SG so I PL others and not myself.
Why? well because I'm the highest one there is I'm 10 lvl's ahead of the second highest so in order for me to grp with them on missions I have to get them up there. They are my friends and I want to play with them.
Other then that comparing PL'g with stealing from work is silly. I will comapare it with someone getting help at work vs. someone who dosen't. The guy who gets help might be done with the work sooner, but he will most likely not end up being as good as it as the guy who dose it the "hard" way.
Anyway calling PL'ing cheating is plain nuts. Pl'ing is nothing more then optimal xp gaining for your or that given character at that lvl. How is it done you get help. Now getting help to accomplish something is what MMORPG's are all about.
Thats why you form SG's in the first place to help eachother and have fun together. I buy SO's for my SG members and have spend well over 15 million doing so. Is that cheating? I meen without me there is no way in Hell they would be able to get a full set of SO's at lvl 22. Or get all there SO's at lvl 27 (I have done the class origin quests).
What we do is just having fun helping eachother out lvl'ing getting there enhancements. This has nothing to do with you and saying it reflecs bad on the community is just lame.
I know this post has reached its 8+ page, I haven't read anything but the first page however. I simply had to respond to the OP.
This is a game we all play if for 1 reason only and that is to have fun. How we have fun is up to the individual. some have fun racing for lvl 50. Some have fun exploring every piece of content there is taking it slow. Some have fun chatting, dancing, ect. Others have fun playing with "The Perfect Build".
Its all up to the individual and they all do it for fun. Helping your SG members out is part of that. Helping them Lvl. so they can grp with you is part of that. its friendship its fun.
ok enough rambling, just relax and have a beer, you sound like you need it... or try pulling that stick out your a..
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As long as the person hanging in the back is in some danger from the mobs being fought I have no issue with it. You are taking the risk so should reap the rewards.
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There is no reason for them to be in any danger. Park yourself at the entry to a mission. Or even progress through the mission but take no actions to draw aggro and hang back out of aggro range. There are plenty of ways to "be along" and be almost as safe as standing at the tram station while friends street grind.
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I make no distinction between parking yourself in a tram station, at a mission entrance, or just outside of the mob's ability to hit you. No risk is no risk. No risk should equal no reward.
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But you are never going to convince me that the devs EVER intended for a player to deliberately be able to level up while AFK or otherwise taking zero risk to himself.
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I'm not trying to do so. The issue is why they should raise to attempting to deal with it when it (a) doesn't affect you or anyone else and (b) someone has to be doing the work somewhere.
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I don't qualify these issues with whether they affect me personally or not - in fact, I am a bit infamous among my friends for bringing up overly powerful issues in games, of which correction would actually harm me as a player more than anyone.
I'm interested in the issue because in my eyes there is a flawed game mechanic that potentially needs fixing. As stated earlier, I am a RPG game designer myself and tend to think along the lines of "How would I balance X rule design". I guess that's why I get involved in so many beta tests - game design fascinates me.
Anything that rewards NOT playing the game has a potential for long term harm. The game should encourage getting in the bad guy's faces and slugging or blasting away, not standing around while the other heroes do all the work.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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1.) PLing just cheats you out of gameplay fun. City of Heroes is not about just being level 50.
2.) You need time to learn about your powers: their advantages, disadvantages, and which situations to use them in. Also, you will not appreciate your powers if you did not earn them.
3.) I think PLing is only OK if you're using an alternate character. BUT! If you're making an alt, you did it to have more fun with the game again and PLing isn't fun.
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Ok I read the last page now as well hehe, as for the above statement, well fine thats your opinion good for you and all respect to that.
Now could we agree to disagree on those issues? I meen is it possible that out of the 180k people who plays this game some actually.
1. Think being lvl 50 is what CoH is all about and they don't feel CoH has any real content to offer anyway?
2. Using your powers is only a matter of pressing the right button, reading up on mob strength/weaknesses, strategies, powers ect. while being PL'ed will give you a better insight how to play your character then blindly learning by trial and error. Also appreciating a power has nothing to do with earning it yourself or by gaining it through PL'ing, you appreciate the power for what it does, not for how you got it.
3. I totally disagree with you on point 3. I meen when your lvl 50 or 40 or 30, perhaps you find that you want to explore other builds and powers, but why wait 1 month or 2 weeks or whatever before your lvl 30-40-50 and can fully test those builds and powers? Stating that you make an alt simply to redo the same missions over again is just silly, stating that PL'ing is no fun... well thats your opinion.
Ok that was just to show a different view. I fully respect the guy I'm quoting and his Views, but they are his views alone, just like mine are mine alone.
Saying that a thing should be done my way or his way alone is simply stupid, stating something as the only way to do things takes away what MMORPG's are all about, freedom and the abillity to enjoy and have fun exploring that freedom.
Why do some people get a bone up there but.t whenever they see someone not playig the game the way they think it should be played?
I guess it's the same people who are always yelling and screaming about equal rights and freedom in real life, but when you cut down to the bone, you learn, that by Equal rights they meen equal for people like them and by freedom they meen freedom to do what there told and believe what they themselves believe ect.
sad sad sad sad. just let it go. you don't like PL'ing don't do it and don't take part in it.
as for the rest leave it to the individual player.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...amp;PHPSESSID=
), but that doesn't affect you in any way, just play the game and enjoy it, also, the gameworld is NOTHING like the realword so stop pulling up these damn analogies compared to the realworld. And as ive said in my linked post, it would be nice to skip all the previously done levels to get to the lvl of your highest hero OF THAT ARCHTYPE, this would work well. Check it out. 
PLZ PPL, just shutup and close this topic, ive read through all of it, both sides are firmly divided and all you are doing is pissing each other off much like the conservatives and liberals, just stop, just play the damn game ppl. I understand how ppl are annoyed by powerlevelers cause they get to higher lvls faster (most of the time