Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Haha! Fei--wrong!
That was great Fei! Slander!
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buzz, wrong. I play to have fun, not to level. Take your self reflective opinions of envy elsewhere. Period. End of discussion.
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If you're playing to have fun, then why are you concerned with what others are doing?
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You are defending cheaters/exploiters, and you are accusing us of a sin? You should be in politics.
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No, I'm saying that you have no sound basis for calling them cheaters/exploiters other than your dislike for what they are doing. Do get with the program.
Not liking what they are doing is fine in my book. Its the name calling that has me otherwise engaged (because as noted, I really don't care about the matter).
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My point was well made by Feiwrong. Many of you guys are both cheaters and liars. Fei is willing to try to win his point by lying. So he is both a cheater and a liar.
I got annoyed by seeing players level at the station after spending weeks trying to level, which feels good, and supporting my fellow players. My anger is of an innocent nature. Plus I would not want to level that way because I would miss much of the story.
I first learned of Pling after a guy solicited me to sk him and stand in the station while he leveled a character that he was going to sell to someone. I didn't even know what this was. That was two weeks ago and since then my opinion formed and now I believe that is cheating.
Erratic there is nothing wrong with using sound arguments. However, I have to say that I simply don't like cheating and honestly do not feel envy. Sorry if I insulted you but this has been going on all day.
Interesting!
I checked EBay out and there is a level 50 Blaster going for $275! So, if anyone would like to cheat in this way please check it out. After you spend the money you can I guess do nothing and quit. What fun.
Game theory states that in any competitive activity a reward must be balanced with risk to the subject obtaining the reward.
That isn't opinion, it's a constant of balanced game design. No reward without equal risk.
The ability to circumvent this process by insulating the rewardee from any risk is indicative of a bad mechanic in the system.
In most games of this sort, deliberately circumventing the risk vs reward cycle is considered an exploit.
It may not have been addressed directly by the game developers yet, but that does not change the fact that such is an imbalance in the mechanics and needs to be corrected to preserve the long term viability of the game.
Indirectly, there is a good amount of evidence that the developers want you taking the risks to get the rewards. Scatter AI was put in to prevent folks from taking out large masses of mobs from a safe position where they can't hit you. Mobs in certain zones were not firing back when attacked, and were fixed. The trick of getting under the terrain so mobs can't hit you is currently grounds for punitive action from the GMs. I could go on.
To put it as plainly as I can, if you want to get the reward, XP, from a mob, you should have to take the risk from that mob as well.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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Kazarak, NinjaPirate, Thanks for the support. However, we are now seeing the lying/denial side of the cheaters. This could go on forever and I hope that it does because maybe the designers will see the post and think about it.
To those out there if you did cheat thats OK, because what can you do about it now. Im more concerned about stopping it than making people feel badly about what they did in the past. Lets look toward the future.
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Your opinion on the topic is yours to have, but to continually deny yourselves that you are being jealous about something is ludicrous. PL'ing is not an exploit. The devs put this in the game so that if I have been playing for many months and now my friend discovers the game and wants to play with me, he can side kick and we can enjoy the game. The lower level guy is going to get massive amounts of XP in relation to his level and is going to be able to level up. If you are referring to my friend being SK'ed to another friend of my same level or within the level gap and then only the SK and me are on the same team and I am killing massive amounts or creatures so that he can get XP, that is not an exploit or a bug. It is part of the game. You and others have posted that you do not agree with this ethically. That's fine. But it's not a bug or an exploit. And comparing the game and what others are doing in game to level to REAL LIFE situations of crime and abuse against humanity is way out of control. Never compare someone else power leveling to **** or robbery. They do not belong together.
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Actually, how's this: If you are not in aggro range (or some other close range) of a mob, you cannot gain XP from that mob.
This also solves the problem of folks running around "tapping" all the mobs in a zone and leeching off other folks in that way.
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I hadn't even considered that side benefit, it makes the "xp range" a good idea. I'd make it considerably more than melee range, perhaps just outside of sniper range to not punish players who use snipe attacks as part of their arsenal. It's a long enough range not to harm the occasional player who is a bit out of range from the group for any reason, while still forcing team members to be within a reasonable range of the fight to get exp.
And it would limit the ability to farm exp by quickly moving through a zone and zapping groups of mobs before others engage them, in the hopes that they'll finish them off.
It would provide an interesting exp "cheat", in that you could group up with a bunch of people then go off and solo, and you'd get full exp/inf for each kill plus a bonus for grouping, but I think that overall, it solves more concerns that it creates.
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Actually no. This idea stomps all over those of us that form a group of 8 and then split into pairs to hunt.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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My point was well made by Feiwrong. Many of you guys are both cheaters and liars. Fei is willing to try to win his point by lying. So he is both a cheater and a liar.
I got annoyed by seeing players level at the station after spending weeks trying to level, which feels good, and supporting my fellow players. My anger is of an innocent nature. Plus I would not want to level that way because I would miss much of the story.
I first learned of Pling after a guy solicited me to sk him and stand in the station while he leveled a character that he was going to sell to someone. I didn't even know what this was. That was two weeks ago and since then my opinion formed and now I believe that is cheating.
Erratic there is nothing wrong with using sound arguments. However, I have to say that I simply don't like cheating and honestly do not feel envy. Sorry if I insulted you but this has been going on all day.
Interesting!
I checked EBay out and there is a level 50 Blaster going for $275! So, if anyone would like to cheat in this way please check it out. After you spend the money you can I guess do nothing and quit. What fun.
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Now you are comparing PL'ing to selling things on EBay and calling people cheaters and liars. A difference in opinion does not make folks like Erratic or myself cheaters and liars. Selling on Ebay = Wrong. PL'ing = not wrong. You don't want someone soliciting you to power level them? I agree with you. I am not doing the work for someone else. A friend of mine wants to play the game and get to the same level as me, lets go. There's the difference. People that want to be power leveled by strangers and are harrassing with tells and spamming the broadcast channels are a different part of this argument altogether. They are missing out on a great game. And if they are that does not affect my gameplay at all.
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Kazarak, NinjaPirate, Thanks for the support. However, we are now seeing the lying/denial side of the cheaters. This could go on forever and I hope that it does because maybe the designers will see the post and think about it.
To those out there if you did cheat thats OK, because what can you do about it now. Im more concerned about stopping it than making people feel badly about what they did in the past. Lets look toward the future.
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Your opinion on the topic is yours to have, but to continually deny yourselves that you are being jealous about something is ludicrous. PL'ing is not an exploit. The devs put this in the game so that if I have been playing for many months and now my friend discovers the game and wants to play with me, he can side kick and we can enjoy the game. The lower level guy is going to get massive amounts of XP in relation to his level and is going to be able to level up. If you are referring to my friend being SK'ed to another friend of my same level or within the level gap and then only the SK and me are on the same team and I am killing massive amounts or creatures so that he can get XP, that is not an exploit or a bug. It is part of the game. You and others have posted that you do not agree with this ethically. That's fine. But it's not a bug or an exploit. And comparing the game and what others are doing in game to level to REAL LIFE situations of crime and abuse against humanity is way out of control. Never compare someone else power leveling to **** or robbery. They do not belong together.
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It is possible that this way of doing things is intentional on the part of the Devs. However, if, in two months, they change your ability to do this, will you come on the boards and say, "well, I was wrong, they didn't intend this after all?"
It is always a risky thing to attempt to read the minds of people that you don't know.
(My guess is, actually, that you'll come back on and say, "You SOBs complained and whined until the Devs went and nerfed this ability.")
Mr. Lithuania
Jessica to Nathan in bed: "I'm not really bad, Isaac just drew me that way."
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Actually no. This idea stomps all over those of us that form a group of 8 and then split into pairs to hunt.
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Er, wouldn't it be just as effective to just make multiple teams? I can't imagine the XP would roll in much differently. Bigger pieces of smaller pie vs smaller pieces of bigger pie.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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I got annoyed by seeing players level at the station after spending weeks trying to level, which feels good, and supporting my fellow players.
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Are we playing the same game? It takes you weeks to level? Do you only play a hour a day? I casually play (maybe 2hrs a day) and i can get levels in the 30s in a week easy, or less if my friends are online. How does your "legit leveling" help the players of the game? Just curious since my way of leveling is so bad, but yet you cant explain why.
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Plus I would not want to level that way because I would miss much of the story.
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Remember the part where i said we already have characters leveled up normally. We arent missing any part of the story we dont care to. If you want to enjoy the story so deeply, then dont complain that it takes you weeks to get 1 level. You should be "enjoying the story" not worrying about levels, right?
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I first learned of Pling after a guy solicited me to sk him and stand in the station while he leveled a character that he was going to sell to someone. I didn't even know what this was. That was two weeks ago and since then my opinion formed and now I believe that is cheating.
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I think i hear the harp playing for you, poor TheAdlerian he has been taken advantage of and used by the evil "Plers" they are ruining his gaming experience and making his game less fun. Dont give me this line of bs, im sure you stayed around in that group SK'd so that you could get some free exp. Keep singing to the choir, maybe someone shall give you pity.
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For those who do not think power leveling hurts everyone else consider this. More then half the current L50 heros were power leveled at least part of the way. A great many were PLd most of the way. (And, a great many of those that were not power leveled made extensive use of some form of exploit or overpowered power like burn, caltrops, smoke grenade or some undesirable technique like AoE blast and run or herding. )
The fact is, on most servers there are only a small handful of people who have actually earned a L50 character at this point. Yet the devs use these numbers to determine things like the rate at which they want people to hit 50 and the rate at which they want to give out rewards like Epic ATs.
Power leveling helps to completely hide the incredible grind most people face. This grind seriously hampers the fun factor of everyone else who plays the game.
Secondly when players do put their blood sweat and tears into accomplishing something it is seen as old hat bye most since they have already seen it dozens of times over, much of the time from people who never paid their dues.
For example I was one of the first eng blasters to hit level 32 on my server. Nearly every time I played with a new person, even in my 40s, I got the Holy S*** reaction the first time they saw it. Today anyone with a high level character can build themselves an eng blaster in a few days and get Nova if they want it. (Most are to busy building fire controllers or scrappers)
Its no longer special unique or particularly hard to get so the people that actually earn it are completely derived of the satisfaction of doing so. How do you think people will feel about finally getting their epic ATs knowing that thousands of people got theirs simply by having someone build a L50 for them without ever putting forth any effort. I dont care what you may claim there is no satisfaction in working your [censored] off for something that most others are getting for free.
Finally it helps create situations where people with high level characters simply do not know how to play them because they never had to learn.
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I'd like to find these people you speak of that will PL a char for me from 2-50 with no effort of myself. These must be some hellacious friends or seriously bored people.
Most currrent L50s earned it already bub. If you want to point fingers at eBay purchased accounts and such feel free, but don't crap on people that have put 478 hours into getting a char to L50 just because you have some sort of jealousy.
Sailor eX
"Not in the face!"
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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Game theory states that in any competitive activity a reward must be balanced with risk to the subject obtaining the reward.
That isn't opinion, it's a constant of balanced game design. No reward without equal risk.
The ability to circumvent this process by insulating the rewardee from any risk is indicative of a bad mechanic in the system.
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Game Theory requires at least two players who are in conflict. I didn't realize that CoH players were in conflict with each other.
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Alright, this will make the third person in the four person group that has responded to the thread that Adlerian posted concerning our activities last night. YES, we were pling. YES, it was a character that was just sitting there. YES, one person was playing multiple accts. YES, it was expressed to us that it was unfair if we did not offer to do the same to other chars.
Why would we do this for someone that we don't know? As was stated, one person was playing both of his accts, and had one of his chars sitting at a safe spot so he did not have to run around with them. All of our chars died at least once last night due to the fact that we were all soloing in a group setting. Which, according to TheAdlerian's form of logic would also be considered a form of pl'ing since there is no risk on the exp that is coming in from the mobs that someone else is killing. We did experience drawbacks to the amt of exp that the main chars were getting due to the fact that the SK'er was in group (yes, we know about the other exploit). How is this in itself an exploit. if you would like, we could use the sidekick option and run around with everyone. At which point, the friend that was playing two chars would have to pay off double debt if something did go bad. I don't blame him at all for leaving his char somewhere else safe and not risking it on at least one of his chars.
My question I guess, is what is this concern to you. You did not have anything better to do with your time than sit there for an hour straight and complain to us? Play the game, enjoy yourself.
Btw, all of the ones that you are complaining about last night have at least two level 32+ chars. We have been through the lower levels multiple times the legit way. And to be honest, if you have problems with leveling, you should analyze the way your are leveling and the mobs you are killing. We have also played since beta, and have played chars to a level close to that in beta as well.
There are some classes that will need to be sidekicked no matter what if they are to preform in a group setting. Controllers/Defenders will always have problems with cc/heals if they are not of the level that the group is fighting at. Sk'ing is a legitimate option for them, but it was also instituted to help broaden the player base. Different classes are going to level faster. By having that option to SK, you keep the player base happy. They can find a group, even if they have to SK with some higher levels to do so.
Nothing will be done about the SK feature that has not already been done. Learn to live with it, or turn a blind eye.
And to be honest, I really don't care what you think. For someone who does not think it is fair for pl'ing to exist, you sure did whine an awful lot last night about not being able to get in.
Mang--lvl 32 spines/dark armor Scrapper
Huggun---lvl 26 ice/empathy Controller
Greasy--lvl 32 AR/device Blaster
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Indeed it affects my enjoyment of the game and that is why I bought and continue to play the game. In a sense, it is a game community, as we are all playing it. If you are working on a job and your coworkers were stealing money it may not affect your ability to do your job or even your paycheck, but it would probably make you feel uncomfortable. Also, I am ethically opposed to cheating. If you are playing a game by yourself so what but when you are playing with others its different.
PLing should be stopped. Another reason is that it is not in line with the superhero world. What superhero gets power and glory by doing nothing?
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You speak as if the person is stealing? From who are they stealing? Are they taking XP from you? No, the respawn is to fast ..
They are doing what is fun for them and no, it doesn't hurt your game enjoyment unless you let it by sitting around grumpy about them leveling.
It is good you are against cheating, but many don't see this as cheating and it goes on in almost every online game out there (PLing that is). If, by them doing this, it caused for you to level slower, I might understand, but it doesn't, they are just getting their $15 a month out of the game same as you are.
Try not worrying about Bob, the guy you don't know, will never meet and never group with, and what he is doing to enjoy the game and try just having fun in the game itself for yourself.
As for the robbing the store anology, that is just silly, if common sense doesn't tell you 1 of these things cause no harm to anyone and 1 is a criminal act that can cause for bodily injury or later injury to someone if the crime is not reported, then you need to re-evaluate how you prioritize things ...
Just as a side note, if this does bother you, you may not want to play any other online games that are a level based system, you'll just stress yourself a great deal ...
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Game Theory requires at least two players who are in conflict. I didn't realize that CoH players were in conflict with each other.
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Two opponents.
A computer can be an opponent just as well as a player.
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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Er, wouldn't it be just as effective to just make multiple teams? I can't imagine the XP would roll in much differently. Bigger pieces of smaller pie vs smaller pieces of bigger pie.
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When the pairs are powerful enough smaller teams would not be as effective. Also the split isn't always down to 2 man teams. We once in Brickstown had 3 teams going--two 3-men teams and a 2-man team. The benefit of having 2 other streams of xp coming in outweighed the loss for being in a team of 8 as opposed to a team of 2 or 3. It was also healthier as if trouble occurred it didn't take much effort for the faster members of the various teams to zip to the aid of whatever team was having problems.
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Well then let me engage in a bit of self determining. . .
You're a whiner that is envious and I've determined it for myself as my belief. I'm going to state my belief, regardless of the facts of the matter in the same fashion you are (and indeed taking you as my lead), loudly in demands that others take it to be their own belief too and hence ignore you.
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I don't fish.
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Well then if any technique is valid. . .SHE'S GOT COOTIES AND IS A NERD!!!!
Hopefully the ridiculousness of the two positions is obvious.
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Any arguement is valid as long as it meets the Code of Conduct that Cryptic has established. So if that's what floats your boat. Then by all means, proceed.
I can't believe this topic exploded so much. It seemed dead back when I stopped reading it.
So I'll concede that you're genuinely opposed to power leveling for ethical reasons. That's really cool with me, you've got your opinion and I've got mine. But throughout the course of this topic, you've gone from sounding like someone with a moral objection to someone who's on a serious high horse. In specific, I'm referring to all your comments about "the cheaters," "the liars," and how "we're all seeing their liar sides." If you don't agree with us then fine, but if you don't like people calling you jealous when it isn't true, then how do you think the opposing side feels when you call them cheaters and liars?
So far, nobody has said how it is exactly that power leveling is a crime. Comparisons have been made to real-life crimes which actually do harm, such as lying to get a welfare check. This is robbery of tax payer money. But there is no exp tax that heroes pay the major of Paragon City. I think most people just took my "it doesn't affect you" line way out of context.
Truth is, if it affected anybody I would be opposed to it as well, but so far, nobody has shown me how it is PL'ing is a crime, or how it affects their lives. I would really like to see how many people are PL'ing, versus how many people are leveling up themselves. Because this whole "it skews the results" idea doesn't really hold that much water unless there's a HUGE percentage of people doing it, and two guys you saw on your server one day doesn't qualify as huge.
And as me and others have said before, experience gain between members of a team has been repeatedly looked at. If they considered it a crime or a bug, it would have been fixed already. They're well aware of these "crimes" and they've chosen not to do anything about it. In my book, that alone disqualifies PL'ing as a crime.
So in review: Power leveling does not exploit any mistakes in programming, not enough people are doing it to skew any results, it does not affect you or anyone else, it does not put you in any sort of disadvantage, and the devs have done nothing about it despite being aware of the issue.
You can be morally opposed to it all you want, and I personally applaud your higher moral standards. But I'm gonna have to remain on the other side of the fence on this issue.
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Game Theory requires at least two players who are in conflict. I didn't realize that CoH players were in conflict with each other.
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Two opponents.
A computer can be an opponent just as well as a player.
-np
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The computer is not an opponent as it operates under a different set of rules than you do. This is unlike playing a Chess computer which has the same pieces and same rules to work with as you do. The computer is providing a challenge, but it isn't trying to win. . .and a good thing too because it would pull out Hamidon and run him through the streets of Galaxy City and Atlas Park, something I'm sure that players in those zones wouldn't want.
Under construction
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Actually no. This idea stomps all over those of us that form a group of 8 and then split into pairs to hunt.
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Er, wouldn't it be just as effective to just make multiple teams? I can't imagine the XP would roll in much differently. Bigger pieces of smaller pie vs smaller pieces of bigger pie.
-np
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No there is an xp bonus as teams grow. A team of 8 gets more total xp for the things they kill then 4 teams of 2 would get for the exact same kills.
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No, people will recognize that your argument is poor and ignore it.
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Actually, you are the one that have won a place on my board ignore list. I dont really want to read more of your silly points.
The Dev team IS working to stop all exploits and power leveling cheats out there, the SK level range one being between them. The Devs obviously also think that is not right.
My favorite thing is I heard there was a web site that is offering to power level your character to level 50 if you pay them 20 bucks. LOL
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Actually, let's not get rid of the link. The purpose of any message board is to discuss the issues at hand. In some cases, some of us will attempt to convince others that our opinions have some validity. If we fall into *known* fallacies, we are miscommunicating, either purposely or in ignorance, and basically wasting each others' time (except for comedic effect or fanboi/troll conversations.)
One of the reasons that discourse on the 'Net and in other media has become so shrill is that folks cannot distinguish between valid arguments and logical fallacies.
5 stars to the person who posted the link for helping to educate.
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I would rather have a message board alive in variety, and color of posts, than a sterile board where everyone follows those rules (not rules period, just those referred rules). Even if it means putting up with idiotic statements, exclamations, or whatever else. I accept and embrace imperfection.
Folks the strange thing is that I did not talk to anyone last night about Pling! I was fighting with a team.
Is this subject causing delusions? What server do you think I'm on?
As I said this game is a simulation and so analogies to the real world seem fine to me.
Strange logic here. Its as if this game is perfect somehow like it could have a fault. PLing is a fault. I don't care what your situation is a character should not be able to stand at the station and earn points it makes no sense in the simulated world of COH.
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Who are you to determine what is legitimate? I believe that falls to the developers to determine.
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When it comes to my own beliefs, I am the ONLY person who determines it.
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Well then let me engage in a bit of self determining. . .
You're a whiner that is envious and I've determined it for myself as my belief. I'm going to state my belief, regardless of the facts of the matter in the same fashion you are (and indeed taking you as my lead), loudly in demands that others take it to be their own belief too and hence ignore you.
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No, people will recognize that your argument is poor and ignore it.
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I read some of that link you sent. If being ignored is the price I pay, then so be it. At least my arguement will be my own. Honestly, if I were in a debate club, or in a court room, I would pay much more careful attention to advice on arguing. However, on a message board about a video game? Come on. Get real!
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Well then if any technique is valid. . .SHE'S GOT COOTIES AND IS A NERD!!!!
Hopefully the ridiculousness of the two positions is obvious.
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