Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Personally, I would alter the mechanics so you do NOT earn ANY XP unless you are in a minimum range of the bad guy you are getting XP from, and thus risk getting defeated by them.
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Then you are opposed to the existance of sidekicking in any form. Afterall, the developers put it in so you could play with friends that were not in your level range. If they couldn't earn any of the normal benefits from defeating villians, what would be the point of even having sidekicking?
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Hmm, I interpreted this differently in my previous post. By "range" I thought he was talking about the physical distance between the sidekick and the villain being defeated. If, on the other hand, we are talking about a level range from the sidekick's security level to the villain's combat level, then I agree that it defeats the point of being able to sidekick someone.
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I think this is something that people really are not aware of at this point. There is a level difference range people have to be in so they can received xp in a group. A lvl 5 toon in a group of lvl 30 toons will not get xp unless he gets a sidekick.
Everyone knows that sidekicks have to be within a certain distance range of their mentor to receive the combat bonus level. That means that if the mentor is the one doing the xp-ing he must stay close to the tram to keep the sk bond up. Once the sk is out of range of their mentor and the lvl difference hits that limit NO XP given to the lower lvl toon. Now one could have another toon sk the lower lvl toon and also stand near the tram and now there are 3 people involved in this but that's another story.
Be a FF defender at lvl 25 who gets a sk and invited to a team of lvl 35's in a portal mission. Things go well until your mentor logs. Then the xp stops for the lvl 25 even though mobs are dropping all around until a new mentor is found.
So with this knowledge the "Is PLing a Form of Cheating" really isn't an issue. Instead the issue is " Are Non contributing members of a team standing in relatively safe (trams are not always safe) area and receiving xp is a Form of Cheating?"
On Justice
Super Goober, Scrankster, Dusty McFluffy, SuperHappyFun and others
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Daily affirmation: net helpmsg 4006
I'm going to need a hacksaw. -- Jack Bauer
I just lost my chicken - Bubbles
Aaawwk! I can feel it in my choadies - Hank Venture
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There is one loophole that has been addressed in Issue 2 (Sidekicks have to be in the same group) but aside from that, grouping with someone at max XP level range -1 and then sidekicking someone is not an exploit.
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Which is actually a good thing as your main can, and will, outlevel the lvl/xp range of your sidekicker. Sad though if you don't want to level the sidekicker, but want to play them naturally.
Miir that may do it because sks have the need for proximity. Perhaps this from of liar type cheating will no longer be an option for liar cheater types of people that are inclined to lie and then cheat. Wait, or is it cheat and then lie.
Right first you have to cheat, then you have to lie about the quality of your character. So, its officially cheating liars.
I'm getting silly.
Icarus, along with your feelings of humanity you should realize that some people might just be having a bad day. Meanwhile a Pled person would be just plain bad on multiple levels.
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It has been stated previously. The rate that players level and total character levels are data points that the devs use for analyzing game content and mechanics. If the developers make changes to the the content to limit the rate of advancement or skew zone developement to favor one caste of player over another it holds the potential to negatively effect others.
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*snore*
Please read a thread before posting in it. This point has been made (and clearly refuted) about 6 seperate times in this post.
The developers do not look at numbers and "data points" in a vacuum. They are fully aware of certain techniques which speed the rate of advancement beyond that which is achievable by the "average" player, just like I'm sure they are fully aware that certain types of players are leveling much, much more slowly than the average person (poor power choices, dying too often and accruing prohibitive debt, etc.).
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Try again. Just because they are aware of such techniques does not mean they have any truly accurate way of accounting for them that is realistically usable.
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Obvious exploit?
There is one loophole that has been addressed in Issue 2 (Sidekicks have to be in the same group) but aside from that, grouping with someone at max XP level range -1 and then sidekicking someone is not an exploit.
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Lol, clearly it must be a feature then! If this was intended by design, then why have a level difference for earning xp in a group? Also, why does a SK NOT earn the same xp as the master? Please, tell us why the developers went out of their way to write code that does these 2 things.
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Actually, how's this: If you are not in aggro range (or some other close range) of a mob, you cannot gain XP from that mob.
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I think there might be something to this. How about if you are not in SK range it drops the XP. Once it says "you can are no longer being SK'd" kiss the XP good bye. At the very least it would make it more of an inconvenience.
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This is the way it works in game now IF when the sk drops the level range difference is big enough. I know that a lvl 9 toon grouped with a lvl 2 toon will result in NO XP for the lvl 2.
On Justice
Super Goober, Scrankster, Dusty McFluffy, SuperHappyFun and others
_____________________________________________
Daily affirmation: net helpmsg 4006
I'm going to need a hacksaw. -- Jack Bauer
I just lost my chicken - Bubbles
Aaawwk! I can feel it in my choadies - Hank Venture
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Just because they are aware of such techniques does not mean they have any truly accurate way of accounting for them that is realistically usable.
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Already responded to this, friend. There's no such thing as "true" and "accurate" here. We're talking about OBJECTIVE EVALUATION of data.
It's not like the developers plug this data into a mainframe, it beeps, buzzes, crunches a few numbers and spits out a little card that says "Increase HP of minions by 17.6%. Reduce END cost of Tanker primary powers. Cook microwave popcorn until popping slows to one pop per 2.7 seconds."
No. They look at the numbers. They consider them, along with a whole host of other information, and they decide OBJECTIVELY what to do. There's no "accurate" or "true" method for making these decisions. It's their opinion of the data, and that opinion is weighted with full knowledge of the fact that some people level incredibly quickly (PLed, Powergamers), some level incredibly slowly, and the average player levels incredibly averagely.
The notion that PLing is going to "skew" the Developers decisions is simply silly. Just as the notion that people who log on just to chat with friends are "skewing" the data in the opposite direction.
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They may try to make allowances for it but there is no way to compensate completely. The complexity of such filtering would make data mining all but impossible. The best they can do is come up with a fudge factor to try and compensate but this is not an accurate method.
So, perhaps you should try again.
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Haha, okay; we're not talking about solving calculus equations here, man. There is no such thing as an "accurate method" of looking at this data and trying to decide how to much subtle changes to the game mechanics, XP, minion statistics, etc.
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Sure there is its called data mining.
It is not outside the realm of possibility that the devs have a full and complete record of every hit and miss since the game went live. More likely they have used some algorithm to reduce the amount of data they need to track, but there are plenty of databases out there that far exceed the transaction rate and size required to track every action taken by every player, and there are plenty of tools for extracting this information. The problem is they break down when you have to account for such things as this player is identified by this filter to be power leveling at this time so we will not count this action.
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Indeed it affects my enjoyment of the game and that is why I bought and continue to play the game. In a sense, it is a game community, as we are all playing it. If you are working on a job and your coworkers were stealing money it may not affect your ability to do your job or even your paycheck, but it would probably make you feel uncomfortable. Also, I am ethically opposed to cheating. If you are playing a game by yourself so what but when you are playing with others its different.
PLing should be stopped. Another reason is that it is not in line with the superhero world. What superhero gets power and glory by doing nothing?
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It's sad that you give others this power over you.
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Also, why does a SK NOT earn the same xp as the master? Please, tell us why the developers went out of their way to write code that does these 2 things.
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Actually, a SK will earn more xp than the master. Granted, the number will be lower, but that is only because of their XP needed per level. Stay with me here... with a master killing equal level mobs, the SK will earn xp equal to +1 mobs at his level. So, technically, while the number is lower, the SK is making more XP... dev's refer to it as a "catch up factor".
I'll take another tack at the issue, as one of the reasons I voice concerns is because as a sometime RPG writer I am interested in game design issues.
The whole point of a game is for people to play it.
Anything that rewards people to NOT play the game is bad.
Huddling in a safe spot while racking in the XP is NOT playing the game.
It's bad design. The player should be encouraged to go out and fight alongside his buddies, not stand around staring at virtual walls.
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As for jealousy, being annoyed at freeloaders isn't jealously, it's annoyance.
Analogy: I work at a job. I enjoy it for the most part and for my work I get paid.
If the guy in the next cubicle can sit there and do nothing and get paid even more than me because a higher up in the company is looking out for him, damn straight I'm going to be upset about it.
No, I don't want what he has - that would be jealousy. I want him to work for his pay like everyone else.
Why is this concept so hard to understand?
-np
I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.
Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered
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So with this knowledge the "Is PLing a Form of Cheating" really isn't an issue. Instead the issue is " Are Non contributing members of a team standing in relatively safe (trams are not always safe) area and receiving xp is a Form of Cheating?"
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THANK YOU!!!
Finally someone states the true question. Its not 'powerleveling' thats the problem. People can form whatever groups they want. The issue is people not contributing in ANY form or fashion to combat within a group for extended periods of time while standing in 'safe' areas of a zone getting full xp for kills.
Thats what I was trying to state in my previous post. If issue 2 DOES indeed require the sk'er to be in the same group then this is a good thing. Even better would be some form of distance requirement from the mobs.
Because cheater tend to rationalize. I would respect the cheater that openly enjoys his cheating way. In a sense that would be a kind of honorable cheater much like the devil.
its ur money, your time, and your account...
do as u wish as long as u aint bothering me...
and PLing does not bother me...
my .02 inf...
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Analogy: I work at a job. I enjoy it for the most part and for my work I get paid.
If the guy in the next cubicle can sit there and do nothing and get paid even more than me because a higher up in the company is looking out for him, damn straight I'm going to be upset about it.
No, I don't want what he has - that would be jealousy. I want him to work for his pay like everyone else.
Why is this concept so hard to understand?
-np
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Egads!!! There it is!!!!
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Being ethically oppossed to cheating is not a from of jealousy. After working hard I do not like to see people stealing the same thing that I earned. The characters in the game define each other.
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The reward from earning your levels the the feeling of accomplishment. But if you're going to go after people for powerlevelling, then the person who levelled with equal level team members and never sidekicked gets to point and you for not having done it his more difficult way, and the person who soloed exclusively gets to point at you both for not having done it his way.
What you're engaging in is a form of envy--one of the seven deadly sins. Drop it.
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As for jealousy, being annoyed at freeloaders isn't jealously, it's annoyance.
Analogy: I work at a job. I enjoy it for the most part and for my work I get paid.
If the guy in the next cubicle can sit there and do nothing and get paid even more than me because a higher up in the company is looking out for him, damn straight I'm going to be upset about it.
No, I don't want what he has - that would be jealousy. I want him to work for his pay like everyone else.
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Poor analogy. The unstated presumption in your workplace scenario is that you don't have the right to do nothing and get ahead like the other guy. That doesn't compare to the game situation where you can be powerlevelled if you choose and there are no sanctions against you if you do.
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Are you called Erratic because of your thought process? All of the thingngs that you mentioned are part of the game. If standing around collecting points was part of the game then there would probablly be a button to press. Also, if a person soloed their way to 50 I would think that they were cool. Its interesting to learn how different people play the game. I love that. However, I don't think the way that cheaters play the game is interesting.
Also, Sloth is a sin too so work on your lazy thought process.
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It's easy to avoid area/cone attacks.
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Really? Do you play a defender? Since a forcfield defender must stand relatively close to provide maximum cover, and a defender must position himself in the center of a group to maximize healing aura the moment of power activation they are attacked often by the very same attacks you claim are easy to avoid.
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Threat level (aggro) is not random.
Proximity, damage, status effects and taunt all effect your threat level on a mob... healing does not.
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I concur, healing may not draw aggro but the instance your character is within a specific range other factors come into play. Simply not attacking does not remove you from being attacked in a general melee. We may get attacked less...but we are still exposed to the risk which is the issue.
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And you have yet to produce any examples or proof that would indicate that the developers (or any MMOG) are so ignorant of powerlevers thet they would make changes to game mechanics or content based on an accelerated rate of advancement.
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And the theorized increase in HP and lowered XP of certain mobs is in response to what? (Although I will state Ive seen numerous evidence to suggest hp/xp has not been changed by those that have datamined it themselves on test)
The game is also only 4 months old. With the initial patches dedicated to immediate balance and power issues, to demand evidence is a little premature. However having played numerous other MMORPGs I have seen the precedence which leaves lower and midrange areas ghosttowns while content is driven towards higher level zones... In games which are years since inception this may be acceptable...we're not quite there yet.
Doc Endeavor - (50) FF Defender
Gravewalker - (40) Emp Defender
Duty: The sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things, you can never do more-you should never wish to do less.
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Are you called Erratic because of your thought process?
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Are you so desperate to be right that you leap for personal attacks?
Purely rhetorical question that as the answer is obvious. I have better things to do than treat with trolls. Welcome to /ignore.
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Being ethically oppossed to cheating is not a from of jealousy. After working hard I do not like to see people stealing the same thing that I earned. The characters in the game define each other.
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The reward from earning your levels the the feeling of accomplishment. But if you're going to go after people for powerlevelling, then the person who levelled with equal level team members and never sidekicked gets to point and you for not having done it his more difficult way, and the person who soloed exclusively gets to point at you both for not having done it his way.
What you're engaging in is a form of envy--one of the seven deadly sins. Drop it.
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There is no envy involved in my opposition to PLing, so you can try and come up with a new theory. I oppose it just because it is wrong. Envy has nothing to do with it.
Players are taking unintended short cuts, taking advantage of bugs, or outright exploiting/cheating. Anyone who thinks the later is wrong is wrong.
Not sure if this has been mentioned. SHould work exactly like Kill stealling. If you're more than 200yards from the take down - NO XP.
Heroes work for a living. Not sit on their a.s.s
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There is no envy involved in my opposition to PLing, so you can try and come up with a new theory. I oppose it just because it is wrong. Envy has nothing to do with it.
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Its not a theory, its an observation. Why are you upset? Because you didn't do it that way for whatever reason and you don't like that they got something you didn't. That is envy.
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Players are taking unintended short cuts, taking advantage of bugs, or outright exploiting/cheating. Anyone who thinks the later is wrong is wrong.
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That is known as argument by assertion and generally considered an invalid argument technique.
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The fact is, on most servers there are only a small handful of people who have actually earned a L50 character at this point.
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Well, I made 50th last Saturday. It took me over 530 hours to get there. So, just so I can tell if I actually "earned" my 50 levels or not, what are the magic qualifications? Is 530 hours too few? Do I have to put in another hundred or two? How many hours do you have in yours? Would help so that I can get an idea how far behind I am on qualifying?
Btw, just so you don't think I was playing one of the FOTM's, it was my Invulnerability Axe Tanker that I got to 50th. I have not yet seen another one of them myself that was over 40th level on Virtue. Maybe they are just hiding....
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My guess is you did earn it, and no its not questions of the hours you put in, even for a FoTM that levels up quickly. (Which may have similar issues but they are not what we are discussing here.)
Some simple questions, did you ever stand around portal corp gaining xp while a couple AR/Dev killed everything in sight? Did you ever play on a team with an anchor standing around the train in bricks or the entrance to founders falls? Were you ever sidekicked to a L46 that was not even on the same team as you? Did you ever share account information so you could have a whole bunch of afk teammates while you solo herded the in the mission? Were you ever part of a team that had the specific goal of sidekicking you to 5 levels below a blaster, fire tank or other heavy damage dealer for hours on end so you could gain levels without contributing to the team?
While these do not cover all the PL scenarios by any means they probably identify the worst exploits. If you answer no to all of these you probably worked your way up legitimately. Hell, even if you only did them a little would say you earned your level.
The truth is, only you know for sure whether you earned your way or not. As and outside observer I may have opinions if I had seen you progress, but only you know for sure. Of course this does not mean you are willing to admit it, even to yourself, if you didnt.
BTW, read my previous post. It's possible to PL someone to 50 in under 50 hours of game time. Just out of curiosity how do you feel when you go on a hammie raid with 10 of these people?