Is PLing a Form of Cheating?

i'm curious. i have a pretty well gimped emp/elec defender, that has a hard time just killing stuff unless their grey(i have 2 attacks in elec that are 2 slotted each). i have to group to even have a hope of even seeing another lvl. now, if its a pretty kicking team, i rarely have to heal, and my attacks are fairly useless. wouldn't that make me almost as bad as the guy standing at the tram? i'm not really contributing much to the group.

honestly, i don't see the comparisons to pling and real world criminals. more like the cousin of the ceo of a company getting a high lvl position in said ceo's company, instead of working for the spot/being quilified for it.

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That type of power leveling is against the rules as defined by Statesman.

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I missed where he said it was against the rules. Can you quote him?

My interpretation of his stance is that it pretty much confirms what we have been saying all along. As the game stands right now, it's a perfectly legitimate tactic. Leave it up to the Developers to change the game so that this tactic becomes more difficult to pull off, but that doesn't make it "cheating," or "exploiting."

In fact, I think his exact statement was "If someone wants to do that, bravo."

Hmm, doesn't sound like something that's against the rules to me.

As for this:
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It's not fun if you level up by doing nothing.

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That's a matter of opinion. The opinion of someone in a position of authority, granted; but nonetheless an opinion. Certainly some people must find this fun, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

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I consider doing the same missions for levels 1-20, which I have done naturally many times before, boring behavior. Therefore, I am exploiting by just leveling an alt naturally? Of course not.

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Use just a little common sense before making a statement like that and weigh it out in your head. That's Ludicrous.

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How about grinding in a hazard zone to level. What could be more boring behavior than running between 5-8 spawns in rotation, "arresting" for xp? Exploit? Of course not.


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What could be more boring? The answer to that question is, sitting afk making experience is more boring. You have at this point reduced your interaction with the game to such a degree as to have completely abandoned gameplay.

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How about "arresting" mob after mob in a mission that is an almost exact duplicate of one I did 5 levels ago, simply because of the lack of variety in the game's mechanics. Exploit? Of course not... "arresting" is how we level.

Obviously there is much room for interpretation in even such a straight forward quote. Open your mind when it comes to such things.

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Fighting through your missions and arcs with another character, with a different arch, a different set of powers, is by no means boring. I faced a boss with my main character (defender) and later faced the same villain as a Scrapper, a Blaster, and a Controller. In each scenario, the difficulty, and the strategy, were MUCH different. I found it more difficult to accomplish with some, easier to accomplish with others. I learned a lot about the strengths and weaknesses of all those different AT powerset combos. Through this experience, I've also learned something about other people's choices in their builds and how the world looks through their eyes, to a degree. Playing through those same boring stories (that's sarcasm, they aren't *that* boring..) a 3rd or 4th or 5th time has been a learning experience and skipping over them would have been denying myself of the ability to learn about different ATs at differing levels vs. different types of foes.
That's all I need to say about the issue of "boring repetitive 1-20 leveling".

Statesman's input can be interpreted as abstractly as you want to try to interpret it, you can extrapolate more or less from what he said if you like - but it seems evident to me (and I would think anyone who isn't simply trying to bend his words to fit their own argument) that he was saying "There is a problem with this that hopefully we will see solve itself with future changes. This type of play isn't what we intended to see happen."

To try to extract such a ludicrous idea as "level 1-20 is boring to me, and Jack said boring gameplay is exploiting" is soooooo completely grasping for straws here. Please spare me the desperate interpretation.

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I am sorry I read most of this thread. But no one has explained how exactly do you power level. And what would be the plus in doing this besides levels. Or what would be the minus of this. It is your char.

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First i would like to say...you didn't read the parts where this was discussed 2 on how to powerlevel...second there have been many examples of the plus and minuses. That is what the whole thread was about.

That said, I think states answer was pretty good. The high lvls are a little to easy. To much of a grind but to easy to kill stuff. I like his answer i just wish it was easier to roll an alt (because your tired of the grind) and make it say half the lvl of your highest character. That would make it so much more fun to play.

just my 2 cents once again.

I like the closed-lane analogy. FWIW, I *never* let lane-runners back into traffic - unless they have pretty blinking lights on the roof.. But someone always does...

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My favorite game of all time was Simutronics' "DragonRealms". It's a text-based MMORPG. It's why my left wrist is crap now.

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Being text-based, DragonRealms allows for the creation of elaborate action scripts. The game is also skills-based. In order to improve a skill like Lockpicking or Primary Magic, you have to use the skill. You level when you earn the required number of new ranks in your prime, secondary, and tertiary skillsets.

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Because the game can be hotkeyed and scripted for working the mind-numbing skills, many people used to find an empty room in a safe zone and sit down - then set an endless script running. Ten hours later, they'd have six ranks of Primary Magic, or one of the other non-combat-related skills. Totally AFK. They may have gone to bed even.

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Some of the folks even scripted combat against certain enemies that were no longer dangerous to them but still gave experience. Ssomething like "ADVANCE CROC...SLICE CROC...SKIN CROC...GET SKIN...PUT SKIN IN BACKPACK...ADVANCE CROC..."

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Hotkeys and scripting were perfectly acceptable - as long as there was still a mind behind the keyboard. If a GM or GA popped in and said hello, everyone in the room had better speak up right away, or be vouched for by someone else in the room.

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AFK scripters were fair game. If you were scripting in the Croc swamp, someone might wander in, make sure you were AFK scripting, and then report you to the GMs or drag you out of the swamp (you could forcibly drag someone if you were stronger, they weren't very burdened, etc.).

Usually the AFK folks would keep their log file running, so there was always a chance that they'd review their log, see who dragged them out, and come looking for you, which proved their character and/or lack of wisdom because non-consentual PvP was also against the rules and would get you locked out...

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The GMs and GAs were more direct. The AFK scripters were yanked from the realms and tossed into account suspension. Or, if the GMs were feeling frisky, your empty room would get a load of Rock Guardians shoved through the door, and the AFK scripter would die, and decay...and while you were dead, your 'memories' faded - you lost skills the whole time you were dead. Stay AFK overnight while dead, and you'd 'wake up' a couple of levels lower than when you went to sleep.

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The point was, the dividing line was the AK / AFK disjunction. You could script for ten hours as long as you were monitoring your script. You were lock-out fodder if you could be shown to be provably AFK while scripting.

I believe ("ego credo") that AFK leveling at the platform is unethical.

However, I have a very good understanding of ethics. One important point is that though I find something to be unethical, others may not hold the same opinion. We could engage in another long debate on societal rules and how they come about and evolve - I love those discussions - but this post would be far too long.

I have a good memory. If I see someone that I can identify as being an AFK leveler, I just...remember. And I don't team with them or offer other assistance in the future.

~Reba Yall
~Born to Tank

a different take on the subject -
i prefer to create alts and do the first levels over and over and over
why? well at low levels i can actually level every now and then and get new powers without spending days stuck in some level watching my xp bar creep up slowly
i like to try all the different at and powerset combinations
some day i might actually find one i think is worth taking past level 25 but right now i see no big reason to get to level 50 anyway, perhaps if CoV ever comes out and there is PvP
but really, what is the big deal about being high level right now?
get to level 50 and powerlevel your friends alt who power leveled you to 50?

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I consider doing the same missions for levels 1-20, which I have done naturally many times before, boring behavior. Therefore, I am exploiting by just leveling an alt naturally? Of course not.

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Use just a little common sense before making a statement like that and weigh it out in your head. That's Ludicrous.


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Did you see the "of course not" on any of those? Reading comprehension...

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How about grinding in a hazard zone to level. What could be more boring behavior than running between 5-8 spawns in rotation, "arresting" for xp? Exploit? Of course not.


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What could be more boring? The answer to that question is, sitting afk making experience is more boring. You have at this point reduced your interaction with the game to such a degree as to have completely abandoned gameplay.


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Actually, I am no more than 3 feet away from my other PC, using one of my toons to level another. How am I not playing?

This is turning into a religious crusade for some of you. You don't really have to impart your gameplay ideals on others. If everyone were to play exactly alike, we would all be playing the same AT/build. We aren't.


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To try to extract such a ludicrous idea as "level 1-20 is boring to me, and Jack said boring gameplay is exploiting" is soooooo completely grasping for straws here. Please spare me the desperate interpretation.

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Again... reading comprehension.

Is PLing a Form of Cheating?

I see it a symptom of our "get to the goal with the less effort possible" society. Sad, but who wants to do something boring (grinding) while others can do it for them ?

Remember, all of us that are playing this game, that WE live with a certain quality of life because we have "others" do all the things for us. Guess our attitude just carries over to video games.

As for the OP, sorry bud, but they pay the same price to play (and probably twice for dual-accounts) as you do. And since the only thing above god is money, there is nothing you can do except go on.

That is my 2 cents

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That's a matter of opinion. The opinion of someone in a position of authority, granted; but nonetheless an opinion. Certainly some people must find this fun, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

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This would be like the French trying to tell DeGaulle what he meant when he wrote the French Constitution.
I think States knows what he wants fromt his game. As has been said fromt he beginning, its pretty logical to assume that the Devs want people to play the game.

If you put his quotes together, you see that he does not consider that type of leveling acceptable.
I do like your interpretation on the last part of his quote. I read that to mean something altogether.

I'm reading into that quote that he is going to make that kind of leveling so difficult that it won't be worth it. That's why he kind of leaves it as you're welcome to try.

Techno: Religious Crusade? Why is it that after the lead Dev says it will be dealt with, you still hurl those little insults at those of us who are against this?
Why should we be forced to play the way you expect us to?

i am new to this game and what the hell is pling

what the hell is pling

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If you put his quotes together, you see that he does not consider that type of leveling acceptable.
I do like your interpretation on the last part of his quote. I read that to mean something altogether.

I'm reading into that quote that he is going to make that kind of leveling so difficult that it won't be worth it. That's why he kind of leaves it as you're welcome to try.


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What are you talking about? He said that if people want to power level someone else "bravo". He leaves the choice to them. To be fair, it doesn't sound to me like he thinks it's a very fun choice, and he may not even have much respect for that choice.

What he clearly said was that the higher levels are easier than they should be. That makes it easy to power level someone. They're going to make those higher levels (and therefore power levelling) harder. I don't know any of Cryptic's plans, but the Statesman made a statement about fixing game balance, not doing away with power levelling. He could just as easily have said that power levelling is forbidden and that they're doing what they can to remove it. He could have said that it's cheating. He could have said a lot of things. He didn't. He leaves the choice to the players. That's not to say that everyone can just do whatever they want. I'm sure Cryptic takes steps to prevent people from ruining other people's enjoyment of the game. However, that isn't being done here, which I suppose is why the Statesman let's the player choose.

If you feel I've misread something, please point it out. Specifics would be helpful. Maybe you're right.

It's ludicrous, but I'd like to point out that players playing the game normally, rather than sitting afk at the train station, cause more harm. No one sitting afk ever stole a kill or caused a player death. They don't use as many system resources as an active player. They're not as likely to inconvenience someone. They're even getting FULL xp for those unbalanced high levels while a power leveller is only getting some of it. Again, I know these are ludicrous statements. The game was made to be played, but they're something to think about.

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If you feel I've misread something, please point it out. Specifics would be helpful. Maybe you're right.


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There are some Gen Con quotes where he says something to the effect that he considers bugs anything that makes the game boring. Add that to what he said about leveling and I think that adds up.

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i am new to this game and what the hell is pling

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Its the 8th capital sin (according to some peeps in this thread !)

But in reality, power-leveling is just lazy (or bored) peeps that group with higher level characters (their friends, or some people even PAY for Pling (type "city of heroes" ebay.com, you'll fall off your chair) in order to get levels LOTS faster than a normal player would do.

Example : a 43 sidekicks a lvl ... 2 (making him lvl 42), they both stay in a safe spot (ie : train stations, top of buildings) The lvl 2 then groups with a lvl 50 (8 lvls difference is the max i think) and kills... hordes of lvl 50 mobs (with relative ease depending on the build), giving the 2(lvl42) player xp as if he was killing lvl 10 mobs (basically, a LOT of xp). (edit : this will be fixed partially in Issue 2, as you will have to be in the same group to SK someone, but just inviting the 43 in the group will merely slow down the process by 20% or so)

Search a bit on ebay, i think i saw someplace where they will get your character to 50 in 4 days. Sad.

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Techno: Religious Crusade? Why is it that after the lead Dev says it will be dealt with, you still hurl those little insults at those of us who are against this?
Why should we be forced to play the way you expect us to?

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I have yet to see any powerleveler in this thread demand that everyone else does the same. But, I have seen the entire anti-pl contingent quite content to tell others how they must play on their dime.

So, who is telling who how to play again?

If you fail to understand the zealot comparison, sorry.

EDIT: BTW, I haven't insulted anyone up to this point, in all my posts. Unless you consider the term "religious crusade" to be an insult. /boggle

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There are some Gen Con quotes where he says something to the effect that he considers bugs anything that makes the game boring. Add that to what he said about leveling and I think that adds up.

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Quite frankly, if you take everything he posts verbatim, the game is completely full of bugs. It really isn't that bad, but does go to show that taking things word for word can be misconstrued easily.

After 1000+ hours, I may say that the whole game has become boring, therefore bugged. But I don't. I harmlessly powerlevel toons to a stage where I would enjoy playing, therefore increasing my enjoyment of the game. This also keeps me paying. My inv tank got some powerleveling to get some key powers. I have been naturally playing that toon since, for almost 10 levels now solo or duo. So what is the problem? Who suffered?

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I think States knows what he wants fromt his game.

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That doesn't mean he gets to say what people find "fun." That's a matter of opinion. Doesn't matter how much authority you have, you don't get to tell people what they enjoy.

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If you fail to understand the zealot comparison, sorry.

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I can't wait til you get your oscar for playing misunderstood victim.
The last I will say on this is Statesman already gave his stance on the subject. If you are still arguing the point, maybe you are the zealot. You know, still fighting for a lost cause and all that.
Good luck with the changes, though.

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The last I will say on this is Statesman already gave his stance on the subject.

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Statesman made a statement, which you then interpreted quite liberally.

Nothing about what he said implies that PLing is exploiting or cheating. Only that he plans on making it more difficult as he believes it's "too easy" to do right now, and he wants to discourage it as much as possible.

You are the one continuing the argument by "reading into" his words much more than he actually said. If you want the argument to end, you have to concede that all the calls of "cheater" and "liars" and "exploiters," were premature and unecessary; it's obviously not against the rules.

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Some people will always have much better builds and tactics, Stateman. You can correct AT balance issues with changes to the difficulty - like making things tougher so they last long enough for tankers and controllers to matter - but if you make the game so hard to deter PLing, you'll also deter weaker players.

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I agree that the game allows people to make builds that can be considerably weaker than others. But the point being made is that the mid-30s game can be remarkably easy. What I'm reading from Statesman's comment is-- the spawn sizes are being based on a group of 2 (PLer and PLee), but because the PLer can easily handle the extra mobs, the PLee doesn't need to be involved in order to help defeat the mobs quicker.

Many of the FotM builds that trivialize the game are wa-aay over the top, power-wise. I read posts from players who are taking on 10 to 12 mobs that are 4 or 5 levels above them and beating them without much risk. Ramping up the difficulty so that they can no longer do that shouldn't be so bad that it would penalize less efficient builds. It may bring those hyper-efficient builds more in line with them.

The cheaters are wriggling like a fish on the hook

To Citizen Pain:
In the Gen Con interview he is referring to bugs in the game and the example is smoke grenade stacking. In his statement in this thread and in the interview he frowns upon boring game play, but if you want to power level, go ahead. They are alse making mobs in the higher level game more difficult. For example, making the mobs have more hit points. This will make power leveling HARDER. Power leveling is not a cheat and to call it that is wrong. To excuse other players of cheating for "exploiting" the system is wrong. And for most people who are sitting at the train being power leveled, they are not doing a boring activity. Some are playing with hero planner to see how they want to build there character, some are surfing the net and reading the boards, and some are not even at there computer. A friend is doing them a favor while they are at work, or have called it an early night. They are making all of this harder to do. But to do away with this, would be to get rid of the SK system or make changes to the pre-existing system in place. To make those changes takes time. IF they make those changes, folks on the power leveling side will find another way. It's called maximizing within the rules. It happens everywhere.

To Alderian: By coming back into your thread and not adding anything of worth except to say that the cheaters are wiggling on a hook, you are trolling. You asked what that is, and that is it. It only takes a little more effort to rationally explain your views.

Can someone tell me what powerlevelers are cheating you anti-powerlevelers out of?

Something material? Something other than your warped sense of morals and ideals?

~ A A ~

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The cheaters are wriggling like a fish on the hook

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I honestly think you should rename this thread to "My opinion is that PLing is a Form of Cheating", as it plainly seems to me that your opinion was fixed before you asked the question.

In the end it will make little difference. The higher level game will be made more difficult. People with the means, ability and willingness to make use of the game mechanics to achieve levelling their characters at a rate higher than that of the casual gamer will adapt.

People will still advance faster and for little effort.

Casual gamers will find the increased difficulty more challenging? Or in the future will threads such as "Why did the Devs make this game so hard" become more prevalent?

Either way - It make no difference to me. I have levelled my main characters the hard way, and now I have the ability to level my alts quickly I choose to do so. I will adapt to any changes made to make this more difficult. I just hope that in your attempt to assert your opinion you havent succeded in making the game difficult for the people who are least able to adapt to future changes. IE : The Casual Gamer.

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Something material? Something other than your warped sense of morals and ideals?

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Nothing is warped about their sense of morals or ideals. By their very nature, they are subject to opinion, which we all are allowed our own. Some in this thread are just very adament about foisting theirs upon others. I don't take it to heart, so should you not.

Regarding the 30+ game... mobs/game adjustments will not affect the ability to powerlevel, just at which level it is being done and perhaps the speed. Everyone, including Statesman, is aware of this. In fact, if you increase mob xp along with hp, as Statesman suggested a possibility of, powerleveling would be easier. If I was getting more XP per group, despite the increased fight duration, I would spend less time hunting for the next group. In Statesman's words, "Bravo".