Is PLing a Form of Cheating?
By
Agrippa_CoH,
Posted on: 2004-09-09 12:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Can someone tell me what powerlevelers are cheating you anti-powerlevelers out of?
Something material? Something other than your warped sense of morals and ideals?
~ A A ~
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This question has come up numerous times in numerous ways.
The answer is so easy it must be eluding the questioners. Kind of like when you lose your glasses but they're right their on your head, or when you lose your keys but they're on the dresser in plain site the whole time.
The answer is:
You don't have to be affected by something to care about it. Period. It's terribly simple, isn't it?
I'd wager that there are a plethora of issues, quirks, or happenings in life that don't affect you but that you care about...
To everyone taking notes, ^^ this is what happens when people run out of real things to say on a subject.
Icarus,
thanks for letting us know when you have run out of material!
Clearly, the question has been answered.
To others, I knew that PLing is cheating. I posed the question to provoke debate. There is no question that being able to earn ex while away from your computer is wrong in the sense of "playing" a game.
However, I have gained some sympathy for people and their alts. It would be nice to have options for those people. I like the idea that you can have an alt that is the same level to an existing character. However, few games of any kind allow you to restart in the middle, so I'm not sure if that's fair either.
Anyway, I'm amazed at the amount of attention this subject got and the amount of people that continued to post. It was pretty interesting for my first and possiblly last post!
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To everyone taking notes, ^^ this is what happens when people run out of real things to say on a subject.
Icarus,
thanks for letting us know when you have run out of material!
Clearly, the question has been answered.
To others, I knew that PLing is cheating. I posed the question to provoke debate. There is no question that being able to earn ex while away from your computer is wrong in the sense of "playing" a game.
However, I have gained some sympathy for people and their alts. It would be nice to have options for those people. I like the idea that you can have an alt that is the same level to an existing character. However, few games of any kind allow you to restart in the middle, so I'm not sure if that's fair either.
Anyway, I'm amazed at the amount of attention this subject got and the amount of people that continued to post. It was pretty interesting for my first and possiblly last post!
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Aldarian, whether you agree with PL'ing or not, IT IS NOT CHEATING. Please go back and read what has been posted by Statesman and alse read the quotes from his interview at Gen Con. It is not cheating! You don't agree with it, that's fine. Come up with a solution better than, your all cheaters. It is not cheating. Exploiting the game system, yes, cheating, no. Find a way to be constructive and provide a solution before you call someone a cheater. And why ask the question and start this thread if your mind was already made up?
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However, I have gained some sympathy for people and their alts. It would be nice to have options for those people. I like the idea that you can have an alt that is the same level to an existing character. However, few games of any kind allow you to restart in the middle, so I'm not sure if that's fair either.
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Acutally DAoC allows people who have accounts with level 50 characters to roll /level 20 Alts, and even lvl 30 Alts on more underpopulated servers.
But I see this would create as many complaints in itself, much like the "You can't have Capes till level 20" or "Auras till level 30" debate. The casual gamer would cry out at the higher level characters getting something that they cannot have.
As stated by myself much earlier in an initial post in this thread, Powerlevelling requires the willing assistance of a much higher level character. And thats what this thread really boils down to. People being concerned that higher level characters can do things that lower level characters cannot.
I would suggest there is a reason why there hasn't been a "plethora" of posts from people with level 50 characters complaining about PLing.
The war of the "Have's" and the "Have Not's" wages on.
I saw this thread right when you put it and thought to myself: "I wonder how long it will take for this guys rating to go all the way down to one star". 
farleftlib7, who cares?
The cheating/exploit thing is almost the same thing. The edge of a sheet of paper is greater than the difference.
I posted the question not because I was curious about the answer but because I wanted something done about it. I wanted to get the word out. Two emails to Statesman and thousands of views and hundreds of posts, I'm amazed!
my only question, why do some people equate this with real life/world crime? its a video game. not your job/something a criminal does like robbing a bank or what have you. its just a game, get over it already.
oh, and a buddy(someone i know in real life) wonderd Why i only went up one lvl when i tf'red. personally, i feel sorry for him feeling that you should lvl at least once an hour. me, i always like the senic route. never Know what you will see along the way.
I really feel sorry for the peaople who feel being lvl 50 means more than the fact that you're at the the point, than how you got there the hard way instaed of working your way there, but, their loss. i like taking hte country roads, so to speak. never know if you'll see a clockwork king or babbabage alon the way. these peaple prefer to be uber right away. noyhing to do at that point tho. i like the ride.
"""......jealousy? WHY, do you think would ANYONE be jealous of someone who is too sad and weak and lazy to do it themselves?"""
Occulta, that statement makes no sense. Some people work or are raising children.
I'm a mid wife and I have no control over my hours, when someone is going to deleiver, they are going to deleiver.
Two of my sons play this game so I have a lot of help when I need it, but if I didn't? There may be viable reasons people have someone PL them.
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I posted the question not because I was curious about the answer but because I wanted something done about it.
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In other words, you're a troll.
And I did not say care. I was referring to "cheating". In order for someone to cheat you, you must have something for them to cheat you out of. So what are they cheating you out of?
~ A A ~
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And I did not say care. I was referring to "cheating". In order for someone to cheat you, you must have something for them to cheat you out of.
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They do not have to cheat you out of something to be cheating. A person may cheat on a test and their doing so may not really harm you, but it's still cheating. I think you could make a valid case saying that a person being powerleveled would technically be cheating.
The better question remains- how does it negatively affect our enjoyment of the game unless we allow it to? Many people aren't aware of powerleveling going on at all, because there are no direct effects, and even the indirect effect being claimed (that it skews datamined results) may not be occuring because the developers do not datamine in a vacuum, so to speak.
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my only question, why do some people equate this with real life/world crime? its a video game. not your job/something a criminal does like robbing a bank or what have you. its just a game, get over it already.
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There is no reason to equate it to real life crime. There are, however, some real life examples that work well in this regards. I am now going to point out one that I think fits this case very well. In fact, it is also from a game as well. It is from the NFL roughly 2 decades ago...
Back around that time, play in the NFL had gotten very defensive and field goal oriented. Due to the rules at that time, there was little reason not to kick long field goals. Any time you crossed the 50, or even some times on your side of the field, it made sense to make a field goal attempt. If you missed, and no return attempt was made, the opponent got the ball at their 20 when possesion was changed.
The heads of the NFL decided that this style of play lead to boring play. They felt that more exciting play (ie attempts at touchdowns) would provide more fun for fans. Thus, providing more income for the NFL Owners. So, they changed the rules.
The Goal Posts were moved back to the back of the End Zone. This added a full 10 yards to all field goal attempts making them more difficult. If the field goal was attempted outside the 20, your opponent would now recieve possession of the ball at the point of possession instead of at the 20. Meaning that they would now get good field possession with a missed kick. Thus, making missed kicks more risky.
In this case, Statesman's view on idle play places him in the role of the NFL Owners at the time. They want to encourage fun and exciting viewing. Jack wants to encourage fun and exciting play. In both cases, it is legal to continue to perform the activities that they are trying to discourage. It isn't illegal to kick a field goal, nor is it illegal to powerlevel. But, in both cases, the game is changed to encourage the playstyle that those in charge are looking for.
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To the people who say that they can play the game THEIR way:
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Hate to break the news to you. This is OUR game. The old adage of the kid who takes the football home is the best example. We have the football. We pay for the game, put food on the developers tables and are ultimately the reasons why there is a game. The Devs mow the lawn, lay down the markers, smooth the ground and do everything they can to make sure we can play the game and have fun. Without use there is no game. The Devs know and have said this many times.
Every player on the field has his own game. His own ups and downs. If someone steals 5 yards does not hurt anyone elses game, his football. Let him play the way he wants. If it isn't hurting your game...then who cares. If thats their game and they like it then you are hurting their game by pushing yourself on their part of the field.
The Devs are keepers of the field, not the refs. The game has refs. The GMs that can act as officials against other peoples games hurting their own. It keeps other players on their side of the field playing their own game. GMs even ref on the Devs by coming between us and the Devs when they discover things like mobs and blinkies in the walls. A delay in game is declared, the mistake is reset and the GM cautions the Devs. GMs even investigate "herding" crimes, often to find that several people are just playing the game without hurting anyone so the GMs leave them be.
PLing stopped by tightening up the huge XP flaws, mob predictability, silly game mechanics or other bugs is a Devs job because its improvements to everyones game, not singling out PLers. Making changes to make the game easier to police is a Devs job because it makes the game safer for all and not pointing anyone out.
Making changes to the game for the sake of telling others how they should play. That is not their job and no one should expect them to do it. To the Devs, thanks for all you have done and are doing. My computer drops me in and for the most I am having a great time. To all you PLers out there, all power to ya and I hope you our having fun. To those who feel your entitled to stop PLers, please go soapbox with the 5th column cause in City of Heroes we trounce to who hurt our freedom.
Umbriel
Ankh_Agressor,
This is my first post here or anywhere of its kind. I know nothing about terms like "troll" as they are too boring for me to think about. Wanting a public reaction to something that you think is wrong is not wrong!
Hey lets have a thread where we make up silly terms for words that already exist.
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Ankh_Agressor,
This is my first post here or anywhere of its kind. I know nothing about terms like "troll" as they are too boring for me to think about. Wanting a public reaction to something that you think is wrong is not wrong!
Hey lets have a thread where we make up silly terms for words that already exist.
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Adlerian,
This is my first message board to partake in, and I have many times in this thread explained what it means to "troll" a message board. I have also explained how power leveling is not cheating. For those that do not agree with other people chillin at the train and getting levels from willing friends that are trying to help them out, then make some suggestions on how to get the system changed. No one who power levels is using some outside program or a bug in the game to get ahead of anyone else. There is no cheat involved. Some people thought outside the box and learned how to maximize there time in game. If you do not like it, or are morally and ethically opposed to it, then you can changed the slant of this thread and even petition the devs to hear you out. 
This is a funny thread
Powerleveling is not cheating.
Powerleveling is one character using the game mechanics to raise a second character's level faster than would be possible for that character alone.
If one of the characters is using a flaw in the game mechanics to enhance this (ie. exploit), then they are cheating.
But that wasn't the question, now, was it?
addendum: If you are speaking of cheating the character out of the "experience" of the low level game, there may be an argument here... but more often than not, it's re-rolls and alts, not new characters being powerleveled. The idea here is that the person has already experienced that.
Trolling is not always a bad thing. It helps bring to light the inner aggressions of people who feel inadequate, or the overwhelming need to justify a stance, be it right or wrong.
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In this case, Statesman's view on idle play places him in the role of the NFL Owners at the time. They want to encourage fun and exciting viewing. Jack wants to encourage fun and exciting play. In both cases, it is legal to continue to perform the activities that they are trying to discourage. It isn't illegal to kick a field goal, nor is it illegal to powerlevel. But, in both cases, the game is changed to encourage the playstyle that those in charge are looking for.
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That's a pretty fair and reasonable comparison, Scholar.
It also illustrates once again, in a different way, how the changes can affect everyone - If too many of us decide to take the easy field goals, and the goal posts get moved back another 10 yards, everyone will face the same increase in difficulty together.
Why do Powerlevelers feel like the people who have a problem with the concept are full of jealousy, that it's the haves vs. the have nots?
Is it so difficult to see that we fear the changes that other people's exploitive gameplay could bring about that can affect ALL players, including those who have no desire to PL in the first place?
I'm opposed to AFK PL'ing. I'm not jealous of anyone for being able to do so. Heck, I have a Lvl. 40 character and a half dozen alts in the 12-18 range. I could work out a PL'ing deal with a supergroup mate if I cared to do so. "Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours, and we'll both skip to 30 on this next round." Personally, as I mentioned in a post lost a few pages back, I don't find it boring to re-play the content again, because the challenge changes with each different build I play. Some of us aren't JEALOUS. we just don't want to see changes made to the game mechanics that will stop this type of gameplay and at the same time make it tougher on those of us who want to play the game as it was intended to be played.
In my mind, it's not at all about jealousy. To me it's simply a matter where my opinion is "Here is the game system, let's all play it as the devs intended for us to play it rather than seeking out ways to take shortcuts, or they're likely to make changes to the system that will make the game more difficult for us in order to eliminate potential shortcuts."
regards,
The Green Jackel
50 [color=black]Defender (Rad/Dark)
[color=green]...and Black Jaguar, Stalker!
[color=purple]..:Infinity Server:..
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Clearly, the question has been answered.
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Clearly. Just seems like one side of the argument refuses to accept that the answer didn't quite agree with their original assertions, so instead of conceding that they were only partially right, they have decided to continue the argument as if the answer was never posted in plain English. Funny how these things work out.
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To others, I knew that PLing is cheating.
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No, you thought it was. Now that Statesman has clearly indicated otherwise, ("Bravo," to those who do it, I think were his words), you have closed your eyes and stuck your fingers in your ears and started chanting "Nanny, nanny, boo, boo! I was right and you were wrong! I can't hear you! I was right!"
Really quite embarassing. Funny, granted, but definitely embarassing.
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Also, Sloth is a sin too so work on your lazy thought process.
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LMSO! Good one, stop those self-righteous ones in their tracks.
On another note, someone on the very first page of this post stated that PL'ing would continue for as long as SK'ing existed. My first thought was, "Oh mah gawsh I shore hope they all don't do away with sidekicking!" (actually my english wasn't that bad in retrospect).
Then I thought long and hard and thought, "Mayyyybeee - they SHOULD do away with SK. I mean so what if Joe-One-Timer can't play with his buddy ? NERF IT I SAY! OFF WITH SK's UGLY HEAD!"
This is the first time I ever cried "NERF!", and believe me it was well-thought (as I despise the term NERF almost as much as the equally pathetic UBER). What has SK'ing really done for us ? Please contact your Congressman if you agree on this issue.
Several years ago I was playing Final Fantasy VII on my PS1.
I had played it nearly to the end of the game. A friend came over and showed me how to cheat to get past the final boss.
I did so. And it ruined the game for me. All the hard work I put into that game was gone in minutes.
That friends brother attempted to get me to help him power level one of his lower level characters in COH. Now being good friends with them both I wanted to help out but having my level 17 charater be level 24 in the morning was not my idea of fun. He understood my refusal although I think it bugged him that I didn't help out.
I did not wish COH to turn into FF7 for me.
That was almost two months ago. My character is level 30 now and I'm very happy with her. I mostly solo and I'll get to level 50 when I get there. I love team action, but work an odd hour job so I dont get to play with others that often.
On both sides of this argument each side thinks they are morally correct. Before reading all the posts I probably wouldn't have given much thought to the question. I would have said its cheating pure and simple.
But after reading the posts I can see the points being made.
And coming down to what their personal definition of Power Leveling is.
The one thing I read over and over was that the PL'ers were calling the people who didn't do it jealous or envious.
That couldn't be farther from my own thoughts. If anything as the player I am, I may feel sad that those quickly leveled
characters are losing the actually game play experience.
What I'm seeing is that there are two factions and both don't want something taken away from them.
The PL'ers don't want the ability to do what they are doing taken away. And the others dont want the game to change affecting themselves because PL'ers were playing the game differently that the coders intended.
My friend the PL'er has been bored with the game for at least a month and a half now. He's been sticking around for the repec missions to redo some of his high level characters.
Then he'll probably quit the game after a month or so.
I'm in it for the long duration. I love seeing the new updates and am looking forward to badges, and auras, kudos to the devs.
One day my job might change to where I might have better hours and I can team more. There are so many things I haven't done that I can see many more hours of enjoyment coming.
I believe I am playing the game the way the people that wrote it intended. And I'm have a hell of a lot of fun.
Do PL'ers have fun? Yes they get the new stuff and fancy powers, ect. But how long does it take to get bored of them and wish for more stuff when there is none left?
What I'm saying is let the PL'ers do their thing. They will probably get bored with it and leave.
The rest of us can continue enjoying the game, in no way envious of those PL'ers that left the game -- missing out on all the cool missions and fighting mobs while taking risks, and using new powers earned in teams or soloing.
If PL'ers are the type to get bored then pretty quickly they will no longer enjoy the game and get tired of paying for it and leave.
Have Fun
DC.
50-Magnitude Zero Nrg/Nrg Blaster
50-Phoss Fire/Fire Blaster
50-Phantasy Mirage Ill/Rad Controller
50-Bronze Girl Earth/Storm Controller
50-Infernel Zero Fire/Dev Blaster
50-Joni Sunlight Bots/Traps MM
50-Cherry Phrost Ice/EM Blaster
50-Nuku Frost-Empathy/Radiation Tank
At this point, I think it's safe to say that those posting against powerleveling in this thread have no valid stance anymore beyond their opinions, which are fine to have. It's exactly what powerlevelers had to start with and have ended with.
I have made several well thought out posts with many points that explain the pros and cons of powerleveling. Not ONE of my posts had it's contents contested by an anti-pl'er (unless you include the semantics one regarding the words "religious crusade").
Typically, posts that have no merit will be torn apart by the other side. A lack of response only shows that there was no fallacy in my logic and statements.
I stand uncorrected. This means it's a matter of opinion regarding the whole topic. We can chose to agree to disagree based on that fact. I doubt anyone will sway the other's opinion. Feel free to try, I'm out unless someone can make a post worth responding to.
Techno_Ice you are right in alledging that it's all opinions whether it's "cheating or not", but what I don't think you've shown me in your debate is that it cannot affect me the non-PL'r.
I see it as something that *can* and probably will affect me the non-PL'r. I see Jack's take on this issue as a forecast of changes being investigated that will make the game harder on me in and effort to curb the practice of PL'ing.
You disagree then, that there is a decent chance that possible changes may affect/change the playstyle of those people who didn't engage in the practice to begin with?
regards,
The Green Jackel
50 [color=black]Defender (Rad/Dark)
[color=green]...and Black Jaguar, Stalker!
[color=purple]..:Infinity Server:..
They already made the mission change for the next patch. A lot more monsters in missions, so having dead weight will make it harder. But how much harder? Dunno, depends on your build.
Saying something is "just opinion" is not a very good reason. Most rules are "just opinion" in a sense. The whole thing about game design and being able to get ex while away at the store says it all. Cheat/exploit? Ask anyone on the street is playing a game while not being there makes any sense.
Let's stop the rationalization. Unless you want to keep going which is fun too.
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Techno_Ice you are right in alledging that it's all opinions whether it's "cheating or not", but what I don't think you've shown me in your debate is that it cannot affect me the non-PL'r.
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Then you have not read my posts.
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I see it as something that *can* and probably will affect me the non-PL'r. I see Jack's take on this issue as a forecast of changes being investigated that will make the game harder on me in and effort to curb the practice of PL'ing.
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See, again, this is where you and many are misinterpreting Statesman's post. The game is horrendously easy post 32/33 for most builds. Sure, it takes longer to level, but that is just the requirement of more minions (which are too easy to take out). His post says that they are looking to increase the difficulty in the late game, which will have an impact on powerleveling.
As I said before, I am not sure the previous idea of increased HP and XP will accomplish that. I don't think you can stop powerleveling as long as you retain the SK system.
Again, for those who are having a problem reading:
The game has issues post 30.
They want to fix this.
This fix may curb powerleveling as a side effect.
Please, understand which is the cause and which is the effect.
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The cheaters are wriggling like a fish on the hook
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To everyone taking notes, ^^ this is what happens when people run out of real things to say on a subject.