# Endurance Costs for Toggle Powers

Very nice. I did some similar computations in which I lowered Endurance to a given level (recording the Endurance) and then letting it rise back to near 100. I didn't let it get to 100 since usually the last "jump" is less than the full amount.

I'll send you the numbers. They look similar to what you have here. In a couple of cases, I doubted my own calculations, so I'll look over them again.

Of course, you realize that all of this is subject to change, and all your work can be undone by a single patch.

One thing I forgot to mention is that you can do the character copy after you level but before you've trained. In that way, you can train various toggle powers on the test server. In particular, you may want to take Whirlwind or some other very endurance-intensive toggle in order to get enough of an endurance drain to be able to make measurements.

I just tried with my invuln scrapper....invinc/sprint/tough/stance/quills doesn't seem to be enough to offset end recov with a no slotted stamina. Maybe when I gain a level I can copy to test and pick up super speed and run that too (unless it can't be run at the same time as sprint...)

Culex's resistance guide

If you can get fly it is a very draining power. More than the base recovery. Without stamina you will run out of endurance with fly on. I'm gonna go on as my brothers toon and get fly numbers for ya! brb!

Edit: Amazing post btw. I hope it takes off!!

This is a great thead and I hope people contribute more to it. I am no good with numbers, or I would gladly pile on.

I have a different measurement for Stamina. I measured the number of seconds between ticks and the amount of Stamina gained per tick by emptying my bar and watching the regeneration. Normally this rate is 4 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which you have on the chart. However, with Stamina (no enh), my rate is 3 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which is a gain of 0.55555555555 which matches what you have for Quick Recovery. Another thread about Quick Recovery and Stamina not stacking confirms this, although I do not have a link for it off hand.

Normal recovery rate is 100 end per minute. Stamina increases this by 25 per minute. Quick recovery increases it by 33 1/3 per minute. and they do stack. Having stamina and quick recovery both 6 slotted with even SO's will give 275 end per minute.

That's my point, empirically speaking Stamina gives you 33 endurance pts. per minute, not 25. The thread I referred to has the time to go from 0 endurance to 100 pts. as 60 seconds normally, which agrees with your first assertion.

However, the other times to go from 0 to full do not match:

45 sec - Stamina (0 enh) - this is a +33 end/min rate gain

45 sec - Quick Recovery (0 enh) - this is also a +33 end/min rate gain

36 sec - Stamina (0 enh) + QR (0 enh) this is a total +66 end/min rate gain

30 sec - Stamina (6 enh) - this is a +100 end/min rate gain

30 sec - Quick Recovery (6 enh) - this is also a +100 end/min rate gain

20 sec - Stamina (6 enh) + QR (6 enh) - this is a +200 end/min rate gain

That pretty much shows that Stamina and Quick Recovery are currently equivalent powers in terms of how much benefit they give you.

I love people like you that figure these things out so I don't have to, keep up the good work

Heres what I came up with for some powers:

Fly - 120 end per minute

Sprint - 20 end per minute

Dark embrace - 22.5 end per minute

Murky cloud - 22.5 end per minute

Death shroud - 45 end per minute

Hover - 15 end per minute (I kept getting 14 but 15 is a nicer number)

Some of these numbers arent exactly the same as the original numbers so the other numbers are probably correct. The OP seems really on the ball for eliminating error. Also if you don't have enough toggles to drain your endurance faster than it recharges you can measure by how fast your endurance recharges back to full:

End regenerated = Time * (regen rate - toggle cost)

Toggle cost = regen rate - end regenerated / time

so if you start at 25 endurance and it takes 60 seconds to recharge to 75 endurance and you don't have stamina or quick recovery:

toggle cost = 1.66666... - 50 / 60 = 0.8333... per second or 50 per minute

Only problem is that this method tends to be very imprecise so if you are serious you'll have to do this many times and take the average.

MrBurke, I don't see your measurements as being in conflict with the numbers the devs have published on normal endurance recovery, quick recovery, and stamina.

Here are the EPS numbers given by the devs:

Normal Endurance Recovery: 5/3 EPS

Quick Recovery: 5/9 EPS (1/3 of normal)

Stamina: 5/12 EPS (1/4 of normal)

This equates to 100-endurance gain times of:

Normal endurance recovery: 60 sec

Normal + Quick Recovery (0 SO) + Stamina (0 SO): 37.89 sec

Normal + Quick Recovery (6 even SO) + Stamina (6 even SO): 21.82 sec

As a sanity check on the devs, I verified these times myself, and I was within one second of them. These are also very close to the numbers you gave. I believe that they are within the margin of error for what is measurable for endurance gains.

It is difficult to get a very accurate measurement when endurance is increasing because you are relying on visual cues that are only updated once every few seconds (the endurance bar). I believe that, internally, your endurance is updated at a higher rate. That is why I'm using the drain-to-0 method of measurement, which provides an ironclad cue (powers being deactivated). There's no guesswork.

Ian_Of_Moore, does the hero you used have Stamina and/or Quick Recovery? Would you be willing to provide the raw drain-to-0 times so that I can plug them into my spreadsheet? As an example: Fly took xxx seconds to drain endurance from full to 0 on a hero with no stamina or quick recovery. Fly + Dark Embrace took yyy seconds. Fly + Murky Cloud took zzz seconds. And so on. This is the best way that I know to get accurate endurance measurements.

Here's an update that adds EPS for Fly, Invincibility, Unyielding Stance, and Tough. Thanks go to Pitho for the data.

EPS Power

----- ---------------------------

+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery

+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)

+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)

+0.56 Quick Recovery

+0.42 Stamina

-2.02 Fly

-1.53 Instant Healing

-1.15 Whirlwind (base, without knockups)

-0.77 Integration

-0.73 Quills

-0.54 Super Speed

-0.46 Assault

-0.46 Maneuvers

-0.38 Stealth

-0.34 Sprint

-0.28 Invincibility

-0.28 Unyielding Stance

-0.24 Hover

-0.20 Tough

-0.08 Combat Jumping

What I'm referring to is that your numbers do not match the dev's, or what I got. Quick Recovery gives a 0.555 endurance pts. per second boost via reducing your tick interval. Stamina also gives 0.555 endurance pts. per second, not 0.42 end/sec. These numbers are reproducible on my character both ways, if you go from 100 to zero or from zero to 100. Either way, it's the same technique you listed, by measuring all the events in an uninterrupted series to avoid human timing errors.

MrBurke,

I'm not sure why you say that my numbers don't match the devs' numbers, since that's where I got them from. I believe it was a post by Geko, who stated that normal endurance recovery is 0 to full in 60 seconds, quick recovery adds 1/3 of the normal rate, and stamina adds 1/4 of the normal rate. Of course, it appears that this post has since been deleted, although I'm sure that some here remember it.

Normal endurance recovery would then be 100 end / 60 sec = 1.67 EPS.

Quick Recovery would then be (1/3) * (100 end / 60 sec) = 0.56 EPS.

Stamina would then be (1/4) * (100 end / 60 sec) = 0.42 EPS.

If there is some error in the above, please let me know.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the measurements taken in that thread that you mention (I believe it is http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...;Number=967593 ), as ChaoticStreams already indicated that dying and using Awaken skewed his results.

[ QUOTE ]

I have a different measurement for Stamina. I measured the number of seconds between ticks and the amount of Stamina gained per tick by emptying my bar and watching the regeneration. Normally this rate is 4 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which you have on the chart. However, with Stamina (no enh), my rate is 3 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which is a gain of 0.55555555555 which matches what you have for Quick Recovery. Another thread about Quick Recovery and Stamina not stacking confirms this, although I do not have a link for it off hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great thread, and has some interesting perspective on how the numbers work, and why the spines/regen scrappers make such a great combo.

I'm no expert on how the powers work, but something you said in the above post and something I remember hearing about before collided in my head. I recall someone stating that QR causes the amount of END recovered each tick to increase, and that Stamina causes the time between endurance recovery ticks to drop. So with QR, you get more END each tick, and with Stamina, the ticks come faster. Therefore the effects on slotting would be different, though the EPS is still a valid way to measure which one is better.

If this is the case, determining the optimal slotting would require a bit of algebra, but could be done.

Does this jive with your experiences?

-Garrik

Stamina and quick recovery are basically the same power, just with different numbers to them : quick recovery is a bit stronger. That's it.

Culex's resistance guide

Unfourtuantely endurance does not seem to update at a higher rate internally. I was also a little concerned with the visual cues I had to relying on. Mainly the fact that end recovers in tics of about 6.66 every few seconds. The problem is that if you start your toggle right before a tic you are getting an artificial boost to endurance since you are getting 2.5 seconds worth of endurance in less than 2.5 seconds. But that is avoidable if you time starting the draining power right after a tic. The main problem i see is that when your powers run out it'll be right before a tic was about to be applied. so you have about 2 seconds worth of endurance that you never got to spend. For example. Fly will bring my endurance down to 2 then i get a boost of 7. then it brings it down to 1 and i get a boost of 7. Finally fly drains it to 0 right before i can get my next boost. I tried doing it where i stop timing when it shuts off and kept getting 2.017 or 2.019. This is a really unfriendly number. I find it hard to belive the devs would make the drain of a power 2.02 instead of just 2. So i decided that i would stop timing right after a tic and look at how much end I had. I chose to stop at 10 so in my formula i added 90 instead of 100. When I did the calculations I ended up with 1.9997. Close enough to 2 to confirm my suspicions. I used this same method for all the other powers. Since the devs record end recharge in a scale or minutes when I multiplied by 60 I was getting numbers like 22.5112 and 44.996. The only one that didn't really turn out was hover. With all my toggles on it took forever to drain to even 90 so i just took it from there and got about 14. I figured it was really 15 but didn't have the patience for additional tests. Thats where I got my numbers. I don't have the times I recorded anymore so later I'll take a second to do it that way for you. And I didn't have stamina so that wasn't a factor. So ya. I'll be back!!

I measured the toggle costs for focused fighting, focused senses, stealth, and combat jumping some time ago, by running end to zero, then turning one toggle on and timing how long it took to regen to 100 end.

Focused fighting, senses, and stealth all worked out to 0.333 end/sec.

Combat jumping seemed to take 0 end per second. Others have said that it's actually like 0.0375 end/sec. Either way, it's a very low number.

Can we get some numbers on Cloaking device, Tough, Weave, Acrobatics, Super Jump, and targeting drone?

Thank you. =]

Oh, and I would do this test, but I can drain my end to 0 with just toggels, heh.

People have to help him with some times before he can give more numbers (stop being lazy).

Culex's resistance guide

Ok, now I gotta go buy a stop watch. I can work on US, TI, Invincibility, and Fly. Though with 4 slotted Stamina it takes 3 to drop my END so I don't know how useful of a number it'll be.

Copy to test server, take enhancements out of stamina.

You can take enhancements out by clicking on it and dragging to the trash bin...it might take a few tries. Yes it does work...took me a bit to get it to work myself, but it was easier after the first time. It's really picky on what you have to click on.

Oh and a warning, you might want to have a book to read, or something. If the drain is slow enough it can take a WHILE. I had two trials that lasted a bit over 90 minutes...ended up reading most of the time, but talked to two people who happened to be on the test server at the same time for part of it.

Culex's resistance guide

Have you ever wondered what the endurance effects for your toggle

powers are? Below is a partial table of endurance gains for powers,

measured in endurance per second (EPS). Unless otherwise noted, all

powers have zero slots. I put this together because I noted how

incorrect and inconsistent the available toggle power endurance

information has been.

EPS Power

----- ---------------------------

+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery

+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)

+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)

+0.56 Quick Recovery

+0.42 Stamina

-1.53 Instant Healing

-1.15 Whirlwind (base, without knockups)

-0.77 Integration

-0.73 Quills

-0.54 Super Speed

-0.46 Assault

-0.46 Maneuvers

-0.38 Stealth

-0.34 Sprint

-0.24 Hover

-0.08 Combat Jumping

"How did you get these numbers, and how can I help complete the

list?", you ask. That's a good question.

1. Copy a hero to the test server. Read "The Training Room (Test

Server)" message board to find out how to set up your test client at

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/postl...ard=shibboleth

. Look for the post entitled "City of Heroes Character Copy Tool!!!".

2. Strip the endurance recovery and endurance reduction enhancements

from all powers that affect endurance (including Quick Recovery and

Stamina, if your hero has them).

3. Find a combination of toggle powers you can activate that will make

your endurance recovery be negative (you see your endurance bar being

drained toward zero). Not every hero can do this--you must have some

endurance-intensive toggles. Try to find a combination of toggle

powers that results in as slow a drain as possible: at least 5 minutes

to drain from full 100 endurance to zero. Use a stopwatch to time from

the moment you activate the last power (the one that makes the drain

negative) to the point where you hear one or more of your powers being

powered down for lack of endurance. Timing to the nearest second is

accurate enough.

4. Repeat step 3 to measure as many other combinations as you can.

5. Send me the results. Include which endurance-affecting powers you

have active as well as how long it took to drain from 100 to zero

endurance. Don't forget to list Quick Recovery and Stamina if you have

either of these.

I'll plug your results into my endurance spreadsheet and fit the power

endurance costs to minimize the total error of all results. For the

mathematically-minded, I currently have more equations (measurements)

than unknowns (toggle power EPS figures), and am able to fit them with

0.003 total EPS error, so I believe that the results are very

consistent, and I feel comfortable posting them to 2 decimal places.