Endurance Costs for Toggle Powers
Has anyone else noticed that how fast the toggle power is circled is directly proportional to how much endurance it takes? Could 1 full circle = 1 end?
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Has anyone else noticed that how fast the toggle power is circled is directly proportional to how much endurance it takes? Could 1 full circle = 1 end?
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Yes, I noticed that myself, and plan to do some research on it. I doubt it's as exact as that. (it would be hard to animate a time span that exactly as a set of image frames, although it could be done "on the fly") However, it's worth looking into.
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Time would seem more consisent with how endurance reduction is done with enhancements. Simply add 33% to the time between ticks for each one, and the effect is a 1/1.33 reduction. However you also have to consider how endurance cost of non-toggle powers is handled. Since there is no "tick" for them, there must be a flat out reduction.
I would think it's both at the same time, which is why we're having so much trouble finding consistency. There is no constant time between ticks or endurance cost per tick. We have to look for X cost per Y time.
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It's entirely possible that there is no "tic", per se, but instead the new value is calculated every time there is an update to the client. Thus it is a simulated constant decrease in End, rather than a "tic". Or there may actually be a timer on the server which operates faster than the rate of updates.
However, the increase is large enough to be noticable, and comes at a very precise time. So it's possible that the increase and decrease follow different rules. Toggles are constant, but recovery only comes on a "tic". (Every four seconds)
Great thread, have had this one bookmarked for ages. It might be useful at this point to catalog which powers have not been documented. Here's a list of the toggle powers organized by power set. Powers marked with an asterisk (*) are unverified by Vennom, including a couple I put in from posts to this thread. Powers marked with a pound (#) are in more than one power set and possibly could have different values depending on which set they're in. Blazing Aura in particular is likely wrong for either the blaster or tanker version, since blasters have lower endurance usage (although tankers had that changed, too). Powers with question marks, of course, haven't been documented.
Biggest holes I see are for Ice and Stone tankers, Dark Armor, and Radiation defenders/controllers.
BLASTER SECONDARIES
----------
Devices
-0.35 Targetting Drone
-0.29 Cloaking Device
Electricity Manipulation
????? Lightning Field
Fire Manipulation
-0.75 Blazing Aura #
????? Hot Feet #
Ice Manipulation
????? Chilling Embrace #
CONTROLLER PRIMARIES
----------
Fire Control
????? Hot Feet #
Ice Control
-1.46 Arctic Air
Illusion Control
-1.42 Superior Invisibility
Mind Control
????? Telekinesis
CONTROLLER SECONDARIES
----------
Force Field
-0.38 Personal Force Field *#
-0.75 Dispersion Bubble #
????? Repulsion Field #
????? Force Bubble #
Kinetics
????? Repel #
Radiation Emission
????? Radiation Infection #
????? Enervating Field #
????? Choking Cloud #
Storm Summoning
-0.76 Snow Storm #
-0.76 Steamy Mist #
-0.94 Hurricane #
DEFENDER PRIMARIES
----------
Dark Miasma
????? Darkest Night
-0.75 Shadow Fall *
Force Field
-0.38 Personal Force Field *#
-0.75 Dispersion Bubble #
????? Repulsion Field #
????? Force Bubble #
Kinetics
????? Repel #
Radiation Emission
????? Radiation Infection #
????? Enervating Field #
????? Choking Cloud #
Storm Summoning
-0.76 Snow Storm #
-0.76 Steamy Mist #
-0.94 Hurricane #
SCRAPPER PRIMARIES
----------
Spines
-0.73 Quills
SCRAPPER SECONDARIES
----------
Dark Armor
-0.39 Dark Embrace
-0.71 Death Shroud
????? Murky Cloud
????? Obsidian Shield
-0.39 Cloak of Darkness
????? Cloak of Fear
-0.12 Oppressive Gloom
Invulnerability
????? Temp Invulnerability #
-0.28 Unyielding Stance #
-0.28 Invincibility #
Regeneration
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
-0.77 Integration
-1.54 Instant Healing
Super Reflexes
-0.38 Focused Fighting *
-0.38 Focused Senses *
????? Evasion
TANKER PRIMARIES
----------
Fiery Aura
-0.75 Blazing Aura #
-0.38 Fire Shield *
????? Plasma Shield
Ice Armor
????? Frozen Armor
????? Hoarfrost
????? Chilling Embrace #
????? Wet Ice
????? Icicles
????? Glacial Armor
????? Hibernate
Invincibility
????? Temp Invulnerability #
-0.28 Unyielding Stance #
-0.28 Invincibility #
Stone Armor
-0.35 Rock Armor *
-1.13 Mud Pots *
????? Rooted
????? Brimstone Armor
????? Mineral Armor
????? Crystal Armor
????? Granite Armor
INHERENT POWERS
----------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
-0.35 Sprint
POOL POWERS
----------
Concealment
-0.38 Stealth
-1.51 Invisibility *
-2.98 Phase Shift *
Fighting
-0.22 Tough
-0.20 Weave *
Fitness
+0.42 Stamina
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
Flight
-0.22 Hover
-2.03 Fly
????? Group Fly
Leadership
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.46 Tactics
-0.44 Assault
Leaping
-0.08 Combat Jumping
-0.54 Super Jump
-0.32 Acrobatics
Speed
-0.53 Super Speed
-1.15 Whirlwind
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Has anyone else noticed that how fast the toggle power is circled is directly proportional to how much endurance it takes? Could 1 full circle = 1 end?
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Yes, I noticed that myself, and plan to do some research on it. I doubt it's as exact as that. (it would be hard to animate a time span that exactly as a set of image frames, although it could be done "on the fly") However, it's worth looking into.
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I thought I heard that instant healing's spins faster when more healing enhancers are slotted in it...
Culex's resistance guide
I PM'd this info to Venomm, but I figured I'd share it here as well:
I ran some tests on Force Bubble ... and let me tell you, this sucker makes Phase Shift look like Combat Jumping!
With no enhancements slotted, this bad boy sucked my FF Defender slave's endurance dry in 39 seconds in one test, 40 in another. This is WITH Stamina (enhancements removed), by the way.
I also did some testing with Stone Armour, but some silly person cast Speed Boost on me towards the end of a 10+ minute test. Since it was after 2 AM I figured I'd try it again later ... and then I realized we don't have confirmed costs on some other Stone Armor toggles. I will wait until he levels some more so I can use power pools to isolate individual Stone Armor toggle powers.
Wonderful, wonderful thread ... thanks for all the work, everyone!!
I ran a test similar to Vennom's just now for Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. Running 5-slotted Stamina, Manuevers, Tactics, Super Jump and Enervating Field (with 3 endurance reduction), I timed 305 seconds from empty to full. Then I switched on RI, and timed 215 seconds back to zero. I did this a few times and feel pretty comfortable with these numbers +/- five seconds.
By my calculation, this gives EF = -1.63 EPS, and RI = -0.68 EPS.
I'm very curious to know what Choking cloud is. When I have time, I'll respec on test and provide some numbers.
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I ran some tests on Force Bubble ... and let me tell you, this sucker makes Phase Shift look like Combat Jumping!
With no enhancements slotted, this bad boy sucked my FF Defender slave's endurance dry in 39 seconds in one test, 40 in another. This is WITH Stamina (enhancements removed), by the way.
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Force Bubble drained you to zero END in 40 seconds BY ITSELF?!?!? No other END drains were running in that 40 seconds? AND you have unslotted Stamina?!?!
Holy bejebus!
-100 END/40 seconds = -2.5 EPS
So...
1.67 + .42 - FB = -2.5 EPS
or
FB = 2.5 + .24 + 1.67 = 4.59!?!?
Conclusion (?):
-4.59 Force Bubble
I repeat, Holy bejebus!!
Io, and any Rads interested:
I made some mistakes with my calculations last night, thinking that my SOs were giving me 20% instead of 33% enhancement. Since I had so many powers running with those measurements and could have made a bunch more mistakes, I decided to run it again, but this time I just copied to test, respec'd with no stamina, and ran the endurance drain with no reductions.
This time I got:
- EF running alone: gain 11 end over 1 minute, 22 over 2 min, 32 over 3 min
- EF with RI: lose 62 end over 3 minutes
- CC running alone: gain 55 end over 2 minutes
This gives:
EF = -1.48 EPS
RI = -.58 EPS
CC = -1.21 EPS
Considering how much simpler my setup was this time, I think this should be more accurate.
Upon further inspection, I noticed Combat Jumping circles at the same rate as Sprint. So unless our numbers for that are way off, I think it's just a graphic.
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-4.59 Force Bubble
I repeat, Holy bejebus!!
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Tell me about it! I swear, ZERO enhancements in Stamina or Force Bubble and 40 seconds to drain, with NO other toggles running.
With fully slotted +3 SO's in Stamina and 1 +3 SO endurance reduction in Force Bubble, it will STILL drain endurance faster than I can regen it.
The only way my FF bot can run toggles is 6-slotting FB with endurance reduction SO's. That lets him run: FB (6 EndRx), Dispersion Bubble (1 EndRx), Tactics (0 EndRx), Manuvers (1 EndRx). If I turn on Super Speed with 1 EndRx in it, I start to lose endurance.
Pretty scary, let me tell ya!
In the above thread, Stamina recharge is listed +0.42 EPS and +1.25 EPS six-slotted. But others have tested out +0.57/+1.667. Further, these higher numbers are consistent with the 200% recharge rate that is often quoted for stamina six-slotted.
So, which are the numbers endorsed by this thread?
To make the lists easier to read and find, why dont you just edit your first post and put the lists of stats in there? Or is there a time limit involved in when you can edit a post?
But, thanks for all the work, its good stuff.
Sweet. Thanks for the numbers Complexity. Interesting how Choking cloud end cost is so low. Even lower than EF?
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To make the lists easier to read and find, why dont you just edit your first post and put the lists of stats in there? Or is there a time limit involved in when you can edit a post?
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There is indeed a time limit to editing posts.
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Sweet. Thanks for the numbers Complexity. Interesting how Choking cloud end cost is so low. Even lower than EF?
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The reason CC seems like a huge drain is that the drain is 6 end / 5 sec pause / 6 end / 5 sec pause / etc. Still a respectable drain.
I would like to see some numbers on the Ice Armor powerset please.
Looks like [CONTROLLER] hot feet is ~-.72 eps. My calculations:
1:31 to drain end running to 0: maneuvers, SS, sprint, stealth & HOT FEET
-100/91 = =-1.099 eps
+2.09 base end regen (base + stamina no enhances)
-.53 SS
-.45 man
-.38 stealth
-.35 sprint
=+.38 eps
-.719 eps HOT FEET
=-1.099 eps
group fly: ~-1.21 EPS
start 47:15, end 48:40
1:25 to drain end running: sprint, hurricane, steamy mist & GROUP FLY
-100/85 = -1.18 eps
+2.09 base end regen
-.95 hurricane
-.76 steamy mist
-.35 sprint
=+.03 eps
-1.21 GROUP FLY
=-1.18 eps
Did I do the calculations right?
[EDIT: Because I found the group fly # surprising, I checked it vs fly - with the same setup fly took about 50 seconds to drain me to zip - so group fly is definitely cheaper than fly. with 4 sos it seems about as fast as fly with 1.]
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
I have a question:
Do END reduction enhancements affect only the activation cost or do they have an effect on the EPS cost as well?
EDIT: Never mind. I figured it out.
Bah, it wouldn't let me edit my old post. Checked cost for added passengers on group fly. For pets (imps) at least, it was -.32 eps per pet.
So we have:
Hot feet:-.719 eps
Group Fly: -1.18 eps -.32eps/passenger (2 passengers is cheaper than fly, 3 is more)
Also, I clocked group fly, it is about ~23 mph base. For comparison, fly's base ~32 mph and sprint with a run speed SO ~23mph.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
I tested out Darkest Night and got a EPS cost of 0.75. That sounds about right, as Shadow Fall is also 0.75. I'll check some of my alts and see if I can figure out any other toggle costs.
Don't let this thread get buried! Post your numbers so others can enjoy!
Great thread!
now who is going to be clever enough to put in an excel spreadsheet where we can select out powers, select our enhancements and show the graph over time of endurance
(I, unfortunately, am excel challenged !)
Does anyone have a number for recovery aura? If not, I can go try out
I'm working on something better than a XLS, stay tuned.
I've been asked to pass on this link to a spreadsheet...
clikeh!
I've not checked it out myself as I don't have Excel so no complaints to me please!
Anyway the author can be found at XiDrablog@yahoo.com
or PM'd as Xidra on VN if you have any queries.
Hope it helps.
adding this thread to my favourites