Endurance Costs for Toggle Powers


akita51

 

Posted

I amstrongly starting to suspect the figure for Fly is too high. All numbers I have derived from Fly + a tested power yeilded low figures for the tested power.


 

Posted

Great thread. Going home now to copy and test Rad defender toggles. Heh... running out of end will NOT be a problem. EF will do it all by itself I'm sure.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I amstrongly starting to suspect the figure for Fly is too high. All numbers I have derived from Fly + a tested power yeilded low figures for the tested power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I calculated the results for Snowstorm, Steamy Mist, Hurricane, Assault, and Fly independent of Vennom's numbers. I provided him with the time-to-drain values and he calculated the same results (within 0.01). I did tests using each of the toggles with fly and then all toggles without fly. I could run further combinations, but without fly they get very lengthy.


 

Posted

Is this thread still being updated? I sent off the times for Superior Invisibility to the OP. Just wondering if an updated list is coming?


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
I sent in some more measurements. Until we get Vennom to update his list or dispute my results, a temporary update for the following powers:

-1,46 Arctic air
-0,59 Quills
-0,47 Tactics

[/ QUOTE ]
Quills has to be higher than that. With Quills going (and no other toggles) my 6 slotted QR (6 DO, no SO yet) doesn't keep me fighting very long. Quills feels close to Integration than that.


 

Posted

Sorry for the delay in sending an update. My computer died and it's taken me a while to get everything back in order. I'll send an update as soon as possible.


 

Posted

Yay!
Sorry about the computer problems.


 

Posted

I did a solo test on flight, exactly confirming Venom's time.


 

Posted

excellent thread!


 

Posted

Can anyone post the formula used?

Vennom, still having computer troubles?


 

Posted

I ran this "drain to zero" test for Dispersion Field. Unfortunately, the only combo of toggles I have that would drain my End is DF+Fly and therefore I hit zero pretty fast. But here are my numbers and math for what they are worth.

I have no end recovery enhancements or powers.

Dispersion Field + Fly 'drain to zero' = 90 seconds

-100 End / 90 sec = -1.11 EPS

So...
1.67 - Fly - DF = -1.11
or
DF = 1.67 - 2.02 + 1.11 = 0.76

Conclusion:
-0.76 Dispersion Field

That sound about right?


 

Posted

Here's an update. Thanks go to Stephen_Starfox, Sillvanor, and The_SaberCat for the measurements.

Note that I cannot edit the original post due to forum permissions (sigh), so replying will have to do. Eventually, I'll start a new thread to avoid too much clutter.

EPS Power
----- ---------------------------
+1.67 Normal Endurance Recovery
+1.67 Quick Recovery (6 even SOs)
+1.25 Stamina (6 even SOs)
+0.56 Quick Recovery
+0.42 Stamina

-2.03 Fly
-1.54 Instant Healing
-1.46 Arctic Air
-1.42 Superior Invisibility
-1.15 Whirlwind
-1.13 Mud Pots *
-0.94 Hurricane
-0.77 Integration
-0.76 Snow Storm
-0.76 Steamy Mist
-0.75 Dispersion Field
-0.75 Blazing Aura *
-0.73 Quills
-0.71 Death Shroud
-0.54 Super Jump
-0.53 Super Speed
-0.46 Tactics
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.44 Assault
-0.39 Cloak of Darkness
-0.39 Dark Embrace
-0.38 Stealth
-0.38 Fire Shield *
-0.38 Focused Fighting *
-0.38 Personal Force Field *
-0.35 Sprint
-0.35 Targetting Drone
-0.35 Rock Armor *
-0.32 Acrobatics
-0.29 Cloaking Device
-0.28 Invincibility
-0.28 Unyielding Stance
-0.22 Tough
-0.22 Hover
-0.20 Weave *
-0.12 Oppressive Gloom
-0.08 Combat Jumping

* Powers marked with an asterisk are submissions that were measured using some method other than the drain-to-zero method, so I am not able to check their validity. I am listing them here until someone submits drain-to-zero measurements for these powers.


 

Posted

Thanks Vennom. Good stuff!


 

Posted

Respec offers many more opportunities to test things like this much faster...so I took the liberty and did my own tests and came up with essentially the same numbers as Venom.

I was curious, however, to find out what Hasten does to the whole end picture. No one mentions anything except that it takes away 20 when it runs out, but the description seems to make it look like hasten also slows your base end recovery while it's on. I'm sure there's something about this in one of the hasten threads, but I'm not about to scour 202 pages of posts looking for this information. The only hard part was finding a combination of toggles that would reduce me to zero end before the 2 minutes were up for hasten so that I wouldn't get an erroneous number. Flight and super speed seemed to hit a sweet spot (no stamina at all) at full-to-zero in 1:51.54 and 1:50.8 (two trials). With hasten on, 1:50.88, 1:50.79...no effect. So I'm glad to report the ONLY thing hasten does to endurance is take away 20 when it's finished. Since it lasts for 120 sec, that's an effective rate of -0.17 on the average.

BTW, thanks for all the good testing, people! I myself have 5 toggles running (TD, CD, SS, CJ, Hasten) and the slots where the end reducers go can be very critical in a battle. Just for those who were wondering, with 6-slot stamina and 4 slots of end reducers to disperse, the remaining recharge rate (after toggles were taken out) hit a max with 2 in SS and 1 in both TD and CD. Remaining end recharge = 1.85...still higher than normal...but not quite the 2.15 I had before respec. <sigh> ...the price you pay for complete invisibility and convenient accuracy. Oh, well.


 

Posted

Good job Vennom!

Btw, doesn't this:
-0.46 Tactics
-0.45 Maneuvers
-0.44 Assault

seem like a margin of error kinda thing? Or would the Devs actually throw a +/- 0.01 EPS into the Leadership pool on purpose?

Just seems like there are a lot of powers grouped around certain numbers like -0.75, -0.40, -0.45, etc and I wonder if the Devs really created powers with this many different EPSs.

That said, technically I calculated -0.76 for Dispersion Field, not -0.75.


 

Posted

I forgot to mention that I'll be redoing the measurements that I originally made on my Scrapper to see if any endurance costs have changed with Issue 2. I have seen posts where people observed apparent changes, so it's worth checking.


 

Posted

The_SaberCat,

I agree--the EPS for Tactics, Maneuvers, and Assault is probably exactly the same. I'm just posting the raw numbers I get and you can round them how you see fit. I want to avoid putting any human bias into my results so that you can get the best data possible!

In some domain, all of these numbers probably are nice and round, although I haven't figured out what that domain is. It's not endurance-per-second, nor is it endurance-per-minute. In developer-land somewhere, though, you can bet that there are some nice even numbers that people are using for endurance consumption. One possibility is that there is nice round endurance per tick number for each power, but that the tick interval also varies among powers.


 

Posted

Good point about these numbers probably looking very simple in the Dev time-space continuum - whatever the heck that is!

Also, good choice on not 'fudging' the numbers in any way even if some seem fairly obvious.


 

Posted

This is great thread.

Any one have endurance numbers for Phase Shift?


 

Posted

nice work, thanks


 

Posted

I used my own methods of calculation to do this, but I got that...

Shadowfall uses .75 end/sec

Not too bad for a group stealth/defense/resistance buff. Although I have yet to test whether this number goes up with the amount of people affected by the power. I haven't noticed it ever before, so I doubt it.


 

Posted

I never posted any of the numbers I came up with because they were inconsistent for Focused Fighting and Stealth, the only ones you didn't have. However, I just did some testing for Temporary Invulnerability, and it consistently comes out to -0.39.

I didn't use the decay to zero technique, as I mentioned above I started with a given low number and recorded the amount of time it took to reach the last "tic" before reaching 100.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
Any one have endurance numbers for Phase Shift?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did some testing this weekend to find out the numbers for invis and phase shift, neither of which I see on the chart.

Phase Shift is an end hog - easily the most expensive toggle I've found in the game. I did five tests, and with NOTHING else running, I ran out of endurance in 75, 76, 76, 76, 77 seconds. That's too fast to be very precise... but it yields a rough approximation of 2.98 EPS... yikes!

I tested Invisibility a number of different ways:
1) Invis by itself running -- after 15 minutes, the bar was still at the top.
2) Invis + sprint: power down at 550 seconds. Taking the posted value of .35 for sprint, Invis comes out at ~1.502
3) Invis + Maneuvers: power down at 336 seconds. Taking the posted value of .45 for maneuvers, invis comes out at ~1.518
4) Invis + Assault: power down at 335 seconds. Taking the posted value of .44 for Assault, invis comes out at ~1.528
5) Invis + Assault + Maneuvers: power down at 131 seconds. Using .89 for Assault + Maneuvers, invis comes out at ~1.543

Side note: If Maneuvers and Assault are indeed different EPS, I should have seen a ~13 second change in the time-to-power-down on my invisibility test when I used them individually, but I didn't. The only difference was within the realm of testing error (one second), which makes me think that contrary to the postings here they ARE the same value. Furthermore, that the value is probably .46 EPS as was posted at the top of the thread, not .45/.44 as was in the latest one. Using .46 for each gives the following results:

1) no change
2) no change (~1.502)
3) Invis + Maneuvers (.46): Invis ~= 1.508 (would yield 335.57 sec)
4) Invis + Assault (.46): Invis ~= 1.508 (as above)
5) Invis + Maneuvers + Assault (.46): Invis ~= 1.512

These values make all of my observed data consistent in a way that the lower/different values cannot, so I trust them far more. It's not a MAJOR difference, but it is enough to screw up other calculations if people are running leadership toggles plus X to try and get a value for X...

Anyway... If you go with the more consistent set of data, then Invis ~= 1.51 for all tests. It would make more sense to me if Invis were 1.5 and Phase Shift 3.0 (instead of 1.51 and 2.98, as I calculated), but who knows what's in the developers' minds?

I've got an unused respec sitting around, so I think I'll go to the test server and try picking up Stamina, superleap, and whatever else I can get for my existing build, then give it another try to see if I can get the numbers to match. Will post the raw data here. In the mean time... great thread, nice numbers, and I hope this helps.


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
One possibility is that there is nice round endurance per tick number for each power, but that the tick interval also varies among powers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet on a combination of the 2. For fly, you can visually see your endurance bar move down about every half second, consistent with 2 end per second, but then shoot back up only every few seconds.

Time would seem more consisent with how endurance reduction is done with enhancements. Simply add 33% to the time between ticks for each one, and the effect is a 1/1.33 reduction. However you also have to consider how endurance cost of non-toggle powers is handled. Since there is no "tick" for them, there must be a flat out reduction.

I would think it's both at the same time, which is why we're having so much trouble finding consistency. There is no constant time between ticks or endurance cost per tick. We have to look for X cost per Y time.


 

Posted

Bump. Incredible thread! Thank you guys, this had been really helpful to me.

Can any high level radiation controllers with a stopwatch get the data on radiation infection, enervating field, and choking cloud? I would love to see what the cost is for those 3 spells.