If I'm still even remotely trusted..
I tested Accellerate Metabolism, controller version (no data on difference between trolllers and defenders), and the EPS came out to about +0.2733, or a touch more.
I used an earth/rad without Stamina, running Sprint, Superspeed, Enervating field, and Radiation infection. The enudrance ran out, on average, between 100 and 101 seconds. I used an end inspire to bump myself back to full end after activating all toggles.
Obviously still needs to be tested with a defender instead of a controller, to see if the primary/secondary effect is still there.
Something else wonky.....
Using the exact same charecter as above, I turned on whirlwind, sprint, and superspeed, activated Accellerate Metabolism....and gained endurance. Very very slowly, but I was expecting it to tick down at a glacial speed.
Something is wonky. Don't trust the above numbers, there must be some sort of error somewhere. I'll figure it out tonight or tomorrow.
Calculating EPS with The Atlas Medallion
Because the Atlas Medallion modifies the max end, I'm going to assume that all regen values are affected by it as well as any enhancements you put into these.
So, for the Atlas Medallion
EPS_new = EPS_old * (1.05)
I'm going to begin adding the accolade powers to the calculator soon.
Anyone see any issues with this?
EDIT: The calculator has been updated. If you see any weirdness, let me know.
EDIT2: I just realized that the calculation method that I'm using and ZeroG used is different. Going from 0 to 100 end is 60 seconds without any regen power. With the atlas medallion, going from 0 to 105 end should still be 60 seconds. Increasing EPS regen decreases the time between ticks not the amount. What the atlas medallion is doing is increasing your max end value. I'm thinking the actual tick amount increases where as regen powers and enhancements decrease the time per tick. Of course we'll need a few test to verify it.
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EDIT2: I just realized that the calculation method that I'm using and ZeroG used is different. Going from 0 to 100 end is 60 seconds without any regen power. With the atlas medallion, going from 0 to 105 end should still be 60 seconds. Increasing EPS regen decreases the time between ticks not the amount. What the atlas medallion is doing is increasing your max end value. I'm thinking the actual tick amount increases where as regen powers and enhancements decrease the time per tick. Of course we'll need a few test to verify it.
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Please re-read my post. The time to go from 0 to 105 with the Atlas Medallion was less than the time to go from 0 to 100 without it.
Thanks, I must have misread your post the first time. I've updated the calculator to reflect your numbers.
I've gone through this thread and gathered some of the reported raw data for Fly. The problem is, they all end up with different rates.
by balfour:
Fly + base regen: -100 End in 285 sec.
=> 121.053 EPM (2.0175 EPS)
by Grotus:
Fly + Sprint + base regen: -100 End in 140 sec.
=> 121.857 EPM (2.0310 EPS)
Fly + Sprint + Base + Stamina: -100 End in 386 sec.
=> 120.304 EPM (2.0051 EPS)
Used Sprint 21 EPM (0.3500 EPS), and Stamina 25 EPM (0.4167 EPS).
The times were at least 140 seconds, so timing errors wouldn't be a large factor. Even when calculating from + and - 1 second times, the results of those three trials still do not match up.
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=> 121.053 EPM (2.0175 EPS)
=> 121.857 EPM (2.0310 EPS)
=> 120.304 EPM (2.0051 EPS)
The times were at least 140 seconds, so timing errors wouldn't be a large factor. Even when calculating from + and - 1 second times, the results of those three trials still do not match up.
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So, let me get this straight: You're comparing these 3 rates, and getting a spread of difference that ammounts to just over 1%? And you think this can't be accounted for by timing errors? 
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[ QUOTE ]
=> 121.053 EPM (2.0175 EPS)
=> 121.857 EPM (2.0310 EPS)
=> 120.304 EPM (2.0051 EPS)
The times were at least 140 seconds, so timing errors wouldn't be a large factor. Even when calculating from + and - 1 second times, the results of those three trials still do not match up.
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So, let me get this straight: You're comparing these 3 rates, and getting a spread of difference that ammounts to just over 1%? And you think this can't be accounted for by timing errors?
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To get Grotus' figures to come up with a matching rate, he would have needed times of 144 and 360. That's being slow by 4 seconds and fast by 8 seconds! For balfour to match up too would have required a time of 290 (slow by 5 seconds). How likely is it that they're both mis-timing by that much?
I'm lazy so I have to ask; what would you get if you instead assumed Sprint drains 20 epm? I've done a series of measurements and they all seem to indicate sprint drains closer to 20 epm. Most recently I calculated Fly+Sprint to 140.2 epm.
I prefer to use linear regression of several samples taken after a recovery tick. More samples tends to even out rounding off errors.
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I'm lazy so I have to ask; what would you get if you instead assumed Sprint drains 20 epm? I've done a series of measurements and they all seem to indicate sprint drains closer to 20 epm. Most recently I calculated Fly+Sprint to 140.2 epm.
I prefer to use linear regression of several samples taken after a recovery tick. More samples tends to even out rounding off errors.
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Assuming that Sprint is lowered by 1 to 20 EPM, then Fly's EPM is raised by 1. This change would only affect Grotus' figures:
Fly + Sprint + base regen: -100 End in 140 sec.
=> 122.857 EPM (2.0476 EPS)
Fly + Sprint + Base + Stamina: -100 End in 386 sec.
=> 121.304 EPM (2.0217 EPS)
BTW, can you post the times for the tests you ran?
I had 50 or so samples so it would be rather inconvenient to post them here. Besides, I already deleted them. 
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The Atlas Medallion
I also have one character with the Atlas Medallion. That character has Stamina. Going into this test I expected one of two likely scenarios. Base regen and Stamina are 100EPM and 25EPM absolute values respectively or base regen and stamina are +100%EPM and +25%EPM of maximum endurance.
Expected time if regen values are absolute is 50.4 seconds since the total end to be recovered is 105 instead of 100. Expected time if regen values are based on max end is 48 seconds, the normal time for unenhanced Stamina. This would translate to an EPM of 131.25, 5% over normal.
Over and over and over endurance went from 0 to 105 in 45 seconds and change!!! Let's start with that 131.25EPM value for percentage based regen and consider the Atlas Medallion is adding +5% to total regeneration rate in addition to the boost gained from having a higher max end. 105% of 131.25 is 137.8125EPM. This would yield an expected recovery time of 45.7 seconds which is extremely close to what I was seeing over and over again.
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Are you certain it's 45.7 seconds? Because that means your END regen is multiplied by 105% twice for a total of 10.25%!
(100 + 25) * 1.05 * 1.05 = 137.8125
It's much different from adding 5 EPM, then multiplying the entire thing by 105%.
(100 + 25 + 5) * 1.05 = 136.5
This difference would be even more pronounced as natural regen rate increases. With 6-slotted Quick recovery and Stamina...
(100 base + (25 * 3) stamina + (33.3 * 3) Quick) * 1.05 * 1.05
= (275) * 1.05 * 1.05
= 303.1875 EPM
compare to adding then multiply:
(275 + 5 Atlas) * 1.05
= 294 EPM
Makes it oh so very nice =)
Why would you add 5 EPM?
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Why would you add 5 EPM?
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Because all endurance rates we've seen so far are additive, and not multiplicative. I can see making an exception with the Atlas Medal and making it multiply by 105% once due to increasing max END. However, I don't understand why it would be multiplying twice. Using the Add-then-multiply calculation for Base+Stamina+Atlas, the expected 0 to 105 time is 46.15 seconds -- within 1% of 45.7 from the two-multiply calculation.
The Atlas medallion adds 5 more maximum possible end. It doesn't add 5 EPM.
I'm not too sure on the double muliplication myself. But if the raw numbers support it, then that's what it will be.
Sorry for the delay in responding; I usually don't read the forums when not at work.
Almost all of my runs with the Atlas Medallion were less than 45.7 seconds but within half a second of 45.7.
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It's much different from adding 5 EPM, then multiplying the entire thing by 105%.
(100 + 25 + 5) * 1.05 = 136.5
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In the case that end regen (base and stamina) are percentages of max end then base regen goes up to 105 EPM (100% of 105) and Stamina goes up to 26.25 (25% of 105) for a total of 131.25 EPM. This is one of the scenarios I considered likely. In this case time to go from 0 to 105 with the Medallion should be the same as going from 0 to 100 without it. Which is not totally suprising since hit point regen is relative to max hit points, rather than absolute.
This would yield an expected time of 48 seconds for Stamina with the Atlas Medallion, the same time as without the Medallion. I was very surprised to see end go from 0 to 105 just over 45 seconds. I supposed that the Atlas Medallion may increase total recovery rate by 5% in addition to increasing max end. This does compound the effect since recovery rate has already increased because it is based on max end.
It is a supposition. It matches the observed recovery time. There may be another explanation for the excess recovery rate. I could only time with Stamina. I don't have a character with the Medallion and Quick Recovery or one without Stamina.
If endurance recovery (base, Stamina, Quick Recovery) works as percentages of max endurance (100% per minute, 25%/min, 33%/min) and the Atlas Medallion increases total recovery by 5% (which is not in its description) then the end result is 125EPM x 1.05 x 1.05 (because this char has stamina) which is 137.8125 (a total increase of 10.25% over a character with Stamina but no Atlas Medallion).
It's not what I expected. At the time I believe test and live were running the same build. I'll run some more tests on test (since it is definitely running a different build now) and see if I get the same results.
[Leaving work early today, no time to proof read, please forgive any typos]
Shortly after I logged on to test the message came across that the server was going down in 5 minutes so I only ran a few runs--getting 45 seconds in Issue3 as well.
Zero G,
If possible, could you also get the Times and Endurance on the 2nd and 2nd to last regen ticks? I'm interested these to eliminate a few possible sources of error.
<ul type="square">[*] The final regen tick would bring you over Max END (105 in your case). Base regen is 6.667 END per 4 seconds (any different with Stamina or Atlas?), so the overall change in END could be 106 when assuming it's 100.[*] The regen tick and timer are unsynchronized. If the first regen tick comes right after your stopwatch is started, then you're getting a lot of END in little or no time. Recorded times might be off by a whole regen cycle. That's up to 4 seconds with base regen![/list]
I noticed those problems during some tests of Fly + Sprint. Out of curiosity, I timed how long it took for me to regen to full END after Fly alone shut off. I timed 72.2 seconds for Sprint + Base regen to get back to full. Plugging that into some rough calculations...
Overall EPS of (Base & Sprint) = (Change in END) / (time)
= (100 - 0)E / 72.2 s
= 1.385 EPS
Sprint EPS = Base EPS - Overall EPS
= 1.667 EPS - 1.385 EPS
= 0.282 EPS (or 16.90 EPM)
The commonly accepted Sprint EPS is 0.33 to 0.35 EPS (20 to 21 EPM), so what was wrong?
I started timing when Fly shut off. I assumed that END was 0, but that might not have been the case. Fly seems to tick every half second at 1 END per Tick (1 EPT); Sprint also ticks every half second at 0.175 EPT. If I had 0.9 END, Fly would have shut off, but it would have been more than sufficient for Sprint. That's one possible source of error.
Another mistake was that the Regen might have ticked right after I started timing. My recorded time was 72.2 seconds. Counting regen ticks backwards every 4 seconds, my first tick would have been at 0.2 seconds. 6.667 END in 0.2 seconds time!
The last mistake was stopping when I saw my END bar fill to 100. I *think* I had about 96 END before the final tick, roughly extrapolating to an actual ending value of 102 END.
Here's my calculations if I adjust for those errors:
Assume Change in END is about 101.5 (102 - 0.5).
During the 72.2 seconds, I had 19 END ticks.
Base END gain = 19 ticks * 6.667 EPT = 126.667 END
Sprint END loss = Base END - Change in END
= 126.667 - 101.5
= 25.167 END
Sprint EPS = 25.167 END / 72.2 seconds
= 0.349 EPS (20.91 EPM)
This value is much closer to the common Sprint EPS values. I should really do the tests again but with synchronized start times and such. That way I have much less assumptions for the calculations.
Shuyun, since I'm measuring recovery and not drain any "overage" would actually mean even greater recovery rate!
In order to insure I was starting from as close to zero as possible I only timed instances where all toggles dropped. If some dropped and some didn't I figured I wasn't at zero and turned the toggles back on.
There was also no doubt about reaching 105 vs 104, 103. You should never be guessing about that. Right-click your end bar and leave the cursor hovering over the bar. This will give you a digital readout of your end. In every run the pattern ended with 98/105 then 105/105. The last tick gained 7 end.
I didn't write out the full pattern but did observe that every tick from 0 to 105 was either 6 or 7. There was never an increase of 8 end.
Ugh. I was almost done with a reply and accidentally closed my browser. ...darn thing called work getting in the way... :P
Anyway, you see increases of 6 to 7 END per tick. This is like what's observed with Base Regen. It's 6.667 END per Tick (or 20/3 EPT). I'm pretty sure that the amount per tick stays the same. Even a 5% increase would bump the EPT to 21/3, or 7. This is not what you're seeing with Stamina or the Atlas Medallion in place.
So if the EPT is not increasing, then the ticks are coming faster. Base regen seems to be once every 4 seconds. It takes exactly 15 ticks to regen 100 Endurance. If we time how long it takes to go from 0 to 100 END, it should be anywhere from 56 to 60 seconds. Why the spread? It depends on when the first tick occurs. The final tick occurs 56 seconds (14 * 4 sec) after the initial tick, which can occur anywhere from 0 to 4 seconds after we start timing.
Ok, let's figure out the frequency with Stamina. Stamina effectively adds 25% to regen rate. We can calculate frequency with the following equation:
Frequency = (Base Frequency) / (1 + additional_regen)
= (4 sec) / (1 + 0.25)
= 4 sec / 1.25
= 3.2 sec
Stamina's tick rate is once every 3.2 seconds. It's difficult to measure each tick, but we can sort of verify by observing how long it takes to go from 0 to 100. (14 * 3.2) = 44.8; 15 * 3.2 = 48. The expected time is from 44.8 seconds to 48 seconds over a total of 15 ticks.
Now let's try for 6 slotted Stamina. Using Even SO's, additional regen becomes 75%.
Frequency = (Base Frequency) / (1 + Additional_regen)
= (4 sec) / (1 + 0.75)
= 4 sec / 1.75
= 2.286 sec
The frequency of each tick is once per 2.286 seconds. Expected 0 to 100 time is 32 to 34.29 seconds.
Can someone run a few quick tests to confirm the 6 slot times fall between 32 and 34.3 seconds over 15 ticks? That'd help tremendously.
Now for ZeroG's tests with Stamina and the Atlas Medallion. With 105 max END, it would take 16 ticks (106.667 END) to get to full. The times were all less than and within 0.5 second of 45.7, so we have a time range of 45.2 to 45.7 seconds. The possible frequencies are as follows:
Time ... Frequency range
45.2 ... 2.825 to 3.013.(45.2/16 to 45.2/15)
45.7 ... 2.856 to 3.047 (45.7/16 to 45.7/15)
Knowing the frequency range, we can work backwards to overall regen vs base.
Regen = (Base frequency) / (Frequency)
Freq ... Regen
2.825 ... 141.59%
3.047 ... 131.29%
So Base + Stamina + Atlas Medallion has an effective endurance regen rate of 131.3 EPM to 141.6 EPM. This range could be narrowed further if we knew the starting time of the first tick.
I love this tread, but it is getting bloated. Maybe we should start a new one with a new table and all the data we have?
If you do, please post a link here!
I know this isnt a toggle, but it is part of end drain if you want it perm, something I found myself wanting to know..
For those of you running perm dull pain:
(Assuming: 5 or 6 recharge redux in hasten, 4 redux in dull pain, this puts you just a hair under 2 minutes)
(the following numbers are from warcry, and i would love it if somebody could confirm them)
(scrapper)regen end cost for DP: 21
(scrapper)invul end cost for DP: 15
tanker end cost for DP: 21?!
This means that for regen scrappers and tanks we get the following:
21/120 seconds = 0.175
Scrapper invul:
15/120 seconds = 0.125
This means that to keep up DP (ignoring the hasten costs) it's cheaper then sprint. With the hasten costs (25 / 120 seconds = 0.208) its 0.383 for regen/tank, 0.333 for invul scrappers, around the cost of hover or stealth. Not bad for the large permanant increase to HP.
(Really hope I'm off about the tanker power costs, should be the other way around as it is a more tanker oriented power.. )
I tested with my Ice Tanker.
I pulled these numbers (Averaged through 10 tests):
Chilling Embrace: 0.34 EPS
Wet Ice: 0.34 EPS
I suspect, but have been unable to test (since I'm not high enough to verify) that Glacial Armor would likely be the same.
So for Ice Tankers, FA, CE, WI, and GA all have the same cost.
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I tested with my Ice Tanker.
I pulled these numbers (Averaged through 10 tests):
Chilling Embrace: 0.34 EPS
Wet Ice: 0.34 EPS
I suspect, but have been unable to test (since I'm not high enough to verify) that Glacial Armor would likely be the same.
So for Ice Tankers, FA, CE, WI, and GA all have the same cost.
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Do you have either the atlas medallion or portal jockey?
So, seriously, I swear I'm not a brain dead idiot or anything.
My test charecter -has- the atlas medalion, which was throwing my numbers off.
I'm feeling kinda stupid, so, anyone who hasn't made a fairly basic calculation error want to check my math? I'm gonna go sit in the corner. Lightning Field is going to have a slightly higher EPS due to this.