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This poster says your numbers for stamina recovery is incorrect.
See post by Mr Burke
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Any comment on this? Is Mr_Burke wrong?
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like [CONTROLLER] hot feet is ~-.72 eps. My calculations:
1:31 to drain end running to 0: maneuvers, SS, sprint, stealth & HOT FEET
-100/91 = =-1.099 eps
+2.09 base end regen (base + stamina no enhances)
-.53 SS
-.45 man
-.38 stealth
-.35 sprint
=+.38 eps
-.719 eps HOT FEET
=-1.099 eps
...(snip group fly stuff)...
Did I do the calculations right?
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No.
0.38 + HotFeet = -1.099
HotFeet = -1.099 - 0.38
HotFeet = -1.479
HotFeet is about -1.48 EPS.
With HotFeet running alone, I gain about 15 END a minute. With HotFeet and Sprint, I LOSE about six per minute (all eyeball figures =p). With HotFeet at -0.72, I shouldn't lose END at all, so 1.4X is much more appropriate.
BTW, it'd be more accurate to have EPS calculated by Vennom (psst...mind sharing that spreadsheet if you aren't updating Toggles?) Reason being that the END total and powers EPS used are rounded to two places; the spreadsheet would be much accurate by working from pure Drain-to-Zero times.
To illustrate, look at the END regen rate you're using (2.09).
Base is 100 per 60 seconds (100/60)
Stamina is +25% of base (25/60)
Total is 125/60, which equals 2.083333...
It's actually closer to 2.08 than 2.09, making END values calculated from 2.09 possibly skewed higher. Other rounding errors could add up to create substantial inaccuracies.
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No.
0.38 + HotFeet = -1.099
HotFeet = -1.099 - 0.38
HotFeet = -1.479
HotFeet is about -1.48 EPS.
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Wow, its sad when I make simple math errors in public 
Glad someone caught this though. Hot feet is definitely an end [censored]. Probably to compensate for the auto (or +100% like burn) hit?
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
Great thread.
So I just did some testing, having a near optimum build to test out Stamina and Lightning field, and my results seem to strongly indicate, unless there is an erorr in the values for my other powers used (listed below), that Stamina is in fact a 0.56 value. That a full drain recovers back in 45 seconds seems to support this.
I turned on Sprint, Superspeed, Whirlwind, and Stealth and let them sit for close to 9 minutes 25 seconds (margin of error around 1 second, I tested twice) before I got the out of end noise. If stamina was, as posted, a 0.42 value it would have been closer to 5 minutes, 11 seconds. Assuming the numbers are correct for Whirl, Stealth, superspeed and sprint, this seems clear to me.
In addition, I tried the above power combo with Lightning Field on, and drained to dry in 95 seconds, or 1 minute 35. This gives us a 0.87 EPS value, -irrespective- of if Stamina is mislabeled or if the error lies elsewhere (since I tried the same power combo with and without lightning field I could measure teh difference).
So I am fairly certain that the drain for LF is -0.87 EPS, and I am pretty sure that the value for Stamina is, in fact, +0.56 (as stated elsewhere, and this seems backed up by other people's values).
Was stamina used in any calculations for other costs? This might require retesting on some powers.
I ran the LF test with the same powers 4 times, using End inspires to bounce back up to full end just before starting the timer. I'm not 100% sure this is the best way to measure, but with a full 95 second drain time any human error should be minimal.
I plan to test Accellerate Metabolism and Speed Boost as well, but I'm not sure if I can test AM till I level my lowly 21 earth/rad controller, and the numbersmight be modified by the primary/secondary hit. As for SB, I need someone to boost me and see if I can drain myself dry, anyone (pref defender AND controller, for comparision) want to help out? Drop me a line via PMs.
Seirously, tho, keep up the good work.
PS- I, for one, am surpised that LF, generally considered a horrible end hog, is only slightly over half that of hotfeet, but with the lower damage and not autohit, I guess this makes sense.
Please feel free to point out any math errors.
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Can we also get some numbers on the following Endurance Recovery boosting powers (someone correct me if I am missing something... Stamina and QR, and base regeneration have already been calculated it seems):
General: Rest
Kinetics: Speed Boost
Electricity: Power Sink
Fire Manipulation: Consume (Tanker and Blaster)
Empathy: Recovery Aura
Empathy: Adrenalin Boost
Radiation: Mutation (any volunteers?!)
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Ice Armor: Hibernate
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Power Sink and Consume are click one-time recovery powers, and, as such, extremely difficult or impossible to fully graph out. Unslotted, Power Sink draws close to 40 end per even-con foe in melee range, while Consume does around 30 from just outside of melee range. Both are autohit powers.
As I posted, I'm more than willing to attempt to test SB and AM. Rest and Hibernate are supposed to be about the same rate of recovery, but other than saying it's greater than 1.05 EPS (raise your hands, everyone who's shocked?), I've got no ability to get hard data on either.
As for the others, Adrenaline Boost and Recovery Aura recover end on such an unholy level that I think you'll need a non-stamina unslotted bubbler running DP, phase shift, fly, and whirlwind to have a shot at beating out thier timers (90 seconds, I belive?). And with that many powers and that short of a time the margin for error goes up quite a lot.
IN any case, I've spent almost an hour testing, time to go play some.
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As for the others, Adrenaline Boost and Recovery Aura recover end on such an unholy level that I think you'll need a non-stamina unslotted bubbler running DP, phase shift, fly, and whirlwind to have a shot at beating out thier timers (90 seconds, I belive?). And with that many powers and that short of a time the margin for error goes up quite a lot.
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Quite true. I did an estimate of Recovery Aura above, and the effect is huge and the margin of error likewise.
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Can we also get some numbers on the following Endurance Recovery boosting powers (someone correct me if I am missing something... Stamina and QR, and base regeneration have already been calculated it seems):
General: Rest
Kinetics: Speed Boost
Electricity: Power Sink
Fire Manipulation: Consume (Tanker and Blaster)
Empathy: Recovery Aura
Empathy: Adrenalin Boost
Radiation: Mutation (any volunteers?!)
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Ice Armor: Hibernate
[/ QUOTE ]
Power Sink and Consume are click one-time recovery powers, and, as such, extremely difficult or impossible to fully graph out. Unslotted, Power Sink draws close to 40 end per even-con foe in melee range, while Consume does around 30 from just outside of melee range. Both are autohit powers.
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I'm not sure about Power Sink since I don't have any chars with it but Consume is definately not an auto-hit power.
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I'm not sure about Power Sink since I don't have any chars with it but Consume is definately not an auto-hit power.
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My mistake! I was comparing notes with a burn tanker and I formed the impression that they were both autohit- I've not yet taken Consume on any charecter. Power Sink will hit anything in melee range, unless it is dead -at the time of click- (can die durring activation) or phase shifted. Even end drain immune foes give normal end.
Again, sorry, I was mistaken. I really thought consume worked like this as well.
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Great thread.
So I just did some testing, having a near optimum build to test out Stamina and Lightning field, and my results seem to strongly indicate, unless there is an erorr in the values for my other powers used (listed below), that Stamina is in fact a 0.56 value. That a full drain recovers back in 45 seconds seems to support this.
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Ouch...if the regen values being used all along are inaccurate then the results are skewed. Certainly some people have tested with stamina and some without.
I'll copy some characters to test tonight and measure base end regen, regen with stamina, and regen with stamina and QR.
Vennom probably still has all the times that have been submitted to him and could correct for different regen values. If he's still around...
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Ouch...if the regen values being used all along are inaccurate then the results are skewed. Certainly some people have tested with stamina and some without.
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For my part, I did not have stamina when I did my tests.
OK So I did some testing on my L13 Ice Tanker.
Methodology: Copied character over to test server, deleted all endurance recovery enhancements. I would turn on all my toggles which gives me a negative endurance recovery, meaning I lose endurance as I sit around doing nothing. I would run around a tight circle of multiple swarms of baddies and use my fight powers to lower my endurance more quickly. As I approached 0 endurance, I would drop the toggle I wanted to test (so it would be recharged when I went into out of endurance mode). When I hit 0 endurance and my toggles dropped, I made sure all dropped (e.g. occasionally combat jumping would stay up) then I would hit one-2 more attacks, the last being brawl to really get my end as close to 0 as possible. Then I checked the time and click on the toggle I wanted to test. I recorded the time and lingered over the endurance bar to watch it climb as I was monitoring the clock.
Note: If the end bar hit 99 i would note the time and see if it would count down enough before hitting 100 the next time. I would record both numbers and average them. Normally, the endurance bar would jump from between 95-97 to 100 so the averaging wasn't necessary.
Note: I have 5 toggles, Frozen Armor, Icicles, Chilling Embrace, Combat Jumping and Sprint.
Note: I have Hasten but did not use the power during any of the tests
Note: I do not have Stamina
Note: I did multiple tests of each power to get a representative sample (albeit very small)
Results for:
Frozen Armor: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Chilling Embrace: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Icicles: calculated to +0.72 eps, approximately 105 (104) seconds to recharge from 0-100
I don't have Wet Ice, Glacial Armor, or Hibernate to test those results yet.
I feel somewhat confident these numbers are correct. For example, with base recovery at 1.67 and the three toggles (FA, CE, IC) running, I should be at a positve endurance recovery of +0.25 (1.67-.35-.35-.72). If I turn on Sprint, then my endurance recovery should be -.10 (1.67-.35-.35.-.35-.72). I did confirm that with the three toggles on, I hovered around 96-100 and never went below that amount. With Sprint added to FA, CE, and IC, I went into the negative and was slowly decreasing toward 0.
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Results for:
Frozen Armor: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Chilling Embrace: calculated to +0.35 eps, approximately 75 (74) seconds to recharge from 0-100 endurance
Icicles: calculated to +0.72 eps, approximately 105 (104) seconds to recharge from 0-100
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Balfour,
I took your observed times and recalculated. I got:
<ul type="square">[*]Frozen Armor: 20 END per minute (0.3333 EPS)[*]Chilling Embrace: 20 END per minute (0.3333 EPS)[*]Icicles: 43 END per minute (0.7167 EPS)[/list]
I did it by calculating from Endurance per Minute, which is a bit more accurate that EPS. It's also interesting that when looked at Endurance per Minute, you get nice looking values.
Here's the calculations that I used (i'm listing columns from Excel):<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>DATA:
A) Frozen Amor, base regen
B) start END: 0
C) end END: 100
D) Observed time (sec): 75
CALCULATIONS:
E) Change in END: = C - B = +100
F) Observed time (min): = D / 60 = 1.2500
G) Observed Rate of Change in END = E / F = 80.0000
H) Known Regen per min : = BASE regen = 100
I) Known Use per min: = nothing else used = 0
J) Unknown RATE: REGEN - USE - ObservedRate = H - G - I = 100 - 0 - 80 = 20.0000
RESULTS:
K) Rounded RATE (This is END per Min): round(j/0.5, 0) * 0.5 = 20.0
L) END per Sec: = K / 60 = 0.3333
VERIFICATION:
M) Calculated Total Rate: REGEN - USE - EPM = H - I - K = 100 - 0 - 20 = 80
N) Time to recreate END Change: END Change / Calculated rate = 100 END / 80 EPM = 1.25 Min
O) Time in seconds: = N * 60 = 1.25 * 60 = 75
P) Percent difference: (Observed - Calculated) / Calculated = (D - 0)/ D = 0%
</pre><hr />
Using the above strategy, I went through this thread and looked for posts and recalculated based off observed times. I got the following:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>POWER EPM EPS
---------------------------------------
BASE 100 1.6667
SPRINT 21 0.3500
ASSAULT 28 0.4667
CHILLING EMBRACE 20 0.3333
FLIGHT 120 2.0000
FROZEN ARMOR 20 0.3333
HOVER 14 0.2333
ICICLES 43 0.7167
INVISIBILITY 90 1.5000
LIGHTNING FIELD 52.5 0.8750
MANEUVERS 28 0.4667
STEALTH 22.5 0.3750
SUPER SPEED 34 0.5667
TOUGH 14 0.2333</pre><hr /> (copy & paste to notepad to view nicely)
When I recalculated those powers with EPM, I got less than 1% difference between observed and calculated times.
edit: noticed that some powers work best in 0.5 EPM increments (e.g., stealth 22.5, lightning field). Changed round function to reflect such.
[ QUOTE ]
When I recalculated those powers with EPM, I got less than 1% difference between observed and calculated times.
edit: noticed that some powers work best in 0.5 EPM increments (e.g., stealth 22.5, lightning field). Changed round function to reflect such.
[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like you might have actually found, as an above poster put it, 'the continium where all the numbers are nice and round'. Of course, the numbers need to be tested from Venmon's massive raw data and see if we get corrilations. Still, very interesting.
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Great thread.
So I just did some testing, having a near optimum build to test out Stamina and Lightning field, and my results seem to strongly indicate, unless there is an erorr in the values for my other powers used (listed below), that Stamina is in fact a 0.56 value. That a full drain recovers back in 45 seconds seems to support this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch...if the regen values being used all along are inaccurate then the results are skewed. Certainly some people have tested with stamina and some without.
I'll copy some characters to test tonight and measure base end regen, regen with stamina, and regen with stamina and QR.
Vennom probably still has all the times that have been submitted to him and could correct for different regen values. If he's still around...
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Searching for Vennom, seems like he's been posting on the defender board.
In any case, the recharge difference between stamina at 0.56 and 0.42 is only 3 seconds (45s and 48s), so it's critical to be precise. On top of that, the END bar ticks up at 3 or 4 second intervals, so multiple tries are needed. Ian of Moore explained early in the thread how measurements can be skewed by starting and stopping at different points in the Endurance regen cycle. Furthermore, each toggle you run goes on varying cycles, so that also fuzzes precise measurement. Hopefully, the errors cancel each other out, but there may be times that they stack.
Another way of determining whether Stamina is +25 End/Min or +33.3 End/Min is to try a combination of toggles with a total cost between 125 EPM and 133 EPM. That way, simply seeing if you gain or lose End would be conclusive.
Hmm, can someone test this? Put an even or green SO Endurance Regen into Stamina. Then run Fly and Sprint at the same time -- this is about -141 EPM. If unenhanced Stamina is 33.3 EPM, you'll regen at least 144 EPM and won't lose Endurance. If unenhanced Stamina is 25.0 EPM, you'll regen at most 138.3 EPM and will start losing Endurance.
[ QUOTE ]
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When I recalculated those powers with EPM, I got less than 1% difference between observed and calculated times.
edit: noticed that some powers work best in 0.5 EPM increments (e.g., stealth 22.5, lightning field). Changed round function to reflect such.
[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like you might have actually found, as an above poster put it, 'the continium where all the numbers are nice and round'. Of course, the numbers need to be tested from Venmon's massive raw data and see if we get corrilations. Still, very interesting.
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Actually, Ian_of_Moore first put his numbers as EPM in this post. It made much more sense than the EPS numbers, and taken to the nearest 0.5 EPM, more precise than 0.01 EPS.
And yeah, Vennom's collection of raw data would be great.
[ QUOTE ]
In any case, the recharge difference between stamina at 0.56 and 0.42 is only 3 seconds (45s and 48s), so it's critical to be precise. On top of that, the END bar ticks up at 3 or 4 second intervals, so multiple tries are needed. Ian of Moore explained early in the thread how measurements can be skewed by starting and stopping at different points in the Endurance regen cycle. Furthermore, each toggle you run goes on varying cycles, so that also fuzzes precise measurement. Hopefully, the errors cancel each other out, but there may be times that they stack.
Another way of determining whether Stamina is +25 End/Min or +33.3 End/Min is to try a combination of toggles with a total cost between 125 EPM and 133 EPM. That way, simply seeing if you gain or lose End would be conclusive.
Hmm, can someone test this? Put an even or green SO Endurance Regen into Stamina. Then run Fly and Sprint at the same time -- this is about -141 EPM. If unenhanced Stamina is 33.3 EPM, you'll regen at least 144 EPM and won't lose Endurance. If unenhanced Stamina is 25.0 EPM, you'll regen at most 138.3 EPM and will start losing Endurance.
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Except....did we get those numbers for Fly with or without Stamina?
This is going to be a basic issue. If somenoe could respec into fly (which can drain you on it's own, I belive?) without stamina, and see if the number we're using for fly is about right, plus combonations of powers...well, it'd be worth trying, wouldn't it?
The reason I inherently trust my results is not because I tested them, but because the difference was -dramatic-, a little over 4 minutes, just by that difference.
So I would suggest getting Stamina and slotting -only- with even-level SOs, and using phase shift (since this power's end-to-zero is reasonably close to 60 seconds, and this is testable for moderately independant values). If stamina is 0.42 base, even level SOs will not quite beat the drain of Phase shift (this difference is minute, it will take a few minutes at least for it to show up). if it is the larger number, the drain will not happen.
In any case, slotting stamina (carefully) would give considerably better test data because the difference is more dramatic (+1.25 vs 1.67), even if it does make it inherently harder to test for.
I just did some unslotted testing of Phase Shift vs Stamina
I did three runs starting the clock when I activated phase shift, and stopping it when it deactivated, I got times of 1:47, 1:48, and 1:48.
A while back I did Phase Shift without Stamina and got times of 1:15, 1:16, 1:17.
Using 1:48 and 1:16 seems to give a value for base Stamina of +0.39, which doesn't match either prediction. Phase Shift might have a delay during activation during which it doesn't draw END, so that might be messing with my numbers.
I'll try later with Fly + Sprint and see that that yields.
I tested Fly on a test server character, a L35 toon that chose Fly and no Stamina.
With no slots, my test results indicated that it took about 285 seconds (4:45) to go from 100-0. That calculates to -2.02 eps.
The Toggle Costs Calculator estimates at -2.03 eps. I think those numbers are sufficiently close that I trust the Toggle Costs Calculator (but can you trust me i guess is the next question).
You can verify yourself when you hit respec and copy your character over to the test server. Or copy any character that does not have Stamina.
Test was down when I went to logon. So I played my emp defender to 32 instead ;P. Just now I ran base regen and confirmed 100EPM. Tommorrow night I will test Stamina and QR.
As a side note, Adrenaline Boost has a duration of 1:30 and a base recharge of 5:00. =)
I noticed Telekinesis isn't listed; it's a toggle hold.
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Phase Shift might have a delay during activation during which it doesn't draw END, so that might be messing with my numbers.
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Phase Shift has a 3-second activation time.
I've updated the calculator with some of the numbers provided above. If there are any numbers that should be changed, let me know. I've also increased the rounding to 4 digits to improve accuracy.
I have finished testing Stamina and Quick Recovery.
Unenhanced Stamina recovers endurance in 48 seconds which is 125EPM, 25EPM over base. Converted to EPS it is .41667 which agrees with Vennom's .42EPS.
Unenhanced QR recovers end in 45 seconds which is 133.3EPM, 33.3EPM over base. Converted to EPS it is .55556EPS which also agrees with Vennom's .56EPS.
I also did a quick acid test with a character that has both Stamina and QR which gave the expected +58.3EPM over base.
It would appear Vennom's regen values are correct. =)
The Atlas Medallion
I also have one character with the Atlas Medallion. That character has Stamina. Going into this test I expected one of two likely scenarios. Base regen and Stamina are 100EPM and 25EPM absolute values respectively or base regen and stamina are +100%EPM and +25%EPM of maximum endurance.
Expected time if regen values are absolute is 50.4 seconds since the total end to be recovered is 105 instead of 100. Expected time if regen values are based on max end is 48 seconds, the normal time for unenhanced Stamina. This would translate to an EPM of 131.25, 5% over normal.
Over and over and over endurance went from 0 to 105 in 45 seconds and change!!! Let's start with that 131.25EPM value for percentage based regen and consider the Atlas Medallion is adding +5% to total regeneration rate in addition to the boost gained from having a higher max end. 105% of 131.25 is 137.8125EPM. This would yield an expected recovery time of 45.7 seconds which is extremely close to what I was seeing over and over again.
I don't have a character with the Atlas Medallion and without stamina but I would expect to see a 110.25EPM recovery rate in that case. This makes the Atlas Medallion more powerful than I originally thought (and I already thought it was cool ).
[ QUOTE ]
I'll try later with Fly + Sprint and see that that yields.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just one run each, since I have other things to be doing:
Fly + Sprint -> 2:20
Fly + Sprint - Stamina -> 6:08
This calculates to around 0.44 EPS for Stamina, which when you allow for error is a good match to the lower value for Stamina.
I have a L13 Ice tanker and a L34 Stone tanker. I will try to respec the Stone tanker this weekend or soon thereafter and do some testing on him. As for the Ice tanker I have CE, Icicles, Frozen Armor, will be getting WI soon. I also have a low level Kinetics Defender, an Invuln Tanker, a FF Controller and an Ice Controller, but without the necessary toggles. I don't have an elec or SR so not much I can help with there. I would like to see some of the numbers for other powers.
My questions concern the methodology. I am a little concerned that we just get these numbers from people using various different toggles. I suppose you are trying to factor them all in, but
1) suppose a power's end cost changes due to an unposted dev change?
2) Is it possible that the same power might work differently on different ATs (e.g. Hot Feet/Blazing Aura, Invuln armor set for Tanker/Scrapper, Chilling Embrace)?
3) Is it possible that some of the buffs have different effectiveness if they are Defender or Controller (e.g. Recovery Aura, Accelerate Metabolism)?
I figure if you have Fly with no enhancements you are already in the negative and it would take about 4.5 minutes to run out of endurance. Based on that, I would suggest for the most accurate results to: Copy your character to the test server after doing a Respec and choose Flight | Fly.
Can we also get some numbers on the following Endurance Recovery boosting powers (someone correct me if I am missing something... Stamina and QR, and base regeneration have already been calculated it seems):
General: Rest
Kinetics: Speed Boost
Electricity: Power Sink
Fire Manipulation: Consume (Tanker and Blaster)
Empathy: Recovery Aura
Empathy: Adrenalin Boost
Radiation: Mutation (any volunteers?!)
Invulnerability: Unstoppable
Ice Armor: Hibernate
So the powers that don't seem to have representation at the moment are:
Electricity Blast: Lightning Field
Ice Manipulation: Chilling Embrace
Force Field: Repulsion Field
Kinetics: Repel
Super Reflexes: Evasion
Super Reflexes: Elude
Ice Armor: Frozen Armor
Ice Armor: Wet Ice
Ice Armor: Chilling Embrace
Ice Armor: Wet Ice
Ice Armor: Icicles
Ice Armor: Glacial Armor
Stone Armor: Rock Armor
Stone Armor: Rooted
Stone Armor: Brimstone Armor
Stone Armor: Crystal Armor
Stone Armor: Granite Armor
I will do what I can to find these out. Just found this thread and I am interested in seeing some numbers added.
Finally, I got the Prima guide which is outdated but it does have calculations for EPS I think in there, although they state "it is the cost per pulse of power" whatever that means.
However, I did notice some discrepancies between the numbers listed in the Prima guide and the Toggle Costs Calculator. In particular, most of the powers seem to be double of what is listed in the Prima guide. For example, many of the armors are listed as .2 in Prima guide (left hand number will be from enhancement calculator, right hand number from Prima guide):
Dark Armor
Dark Embrace .39 .2
Murky Cloud .39 .2
Obsidian Shield .39 .2
Cloak of Darkness .39 .2
Cloak of Fear .71 .4
Super Reflexes
Focused Fighting .38 .2
Focused Senses .38 .2
Fiery Aura
Fire Shield .38 .2
Invulnerability
Unyielding Stance .28 .2
Invincibility .28 .2
Stone Armor
Rock Armor .38 .2
What is interesting is that all the armors are listed .38/.39 except Invuln armors?! Is that why so many people choose Invuln or perhaps that/those test(s) is/are flawed? In any case, the numbers are roughly half of what the Prima Guide is showing. But this would mean that the Prima guide counts "power pulses" in half-second increments? Am I missing something?
Well, I hope to have some numbers to provide you soon. And please don't blow off the Prima guide just because it is old. That's an invalid logical argument. I want some verification of methodology or something more academic, than "duh the manual's out of date dud3!!!11!"