Ian_Of_Moore

Loved it!

I enjoyed reading it even though I'm not new to the market. And I would definately reccomend it to those who are.

... Is this who I think it is?

So what happens if I craft the recepie, then use the back button and cancel it? Do I lose the recepie and salvage, or does everything stay or is it not possible to back out once initiated?

Excellent guide. I came to this area of the forums with a question that was answered in this guide. And to think I almost posted without even looking :P Anyways, now I'm extremely excited to be slotting the procs from Psitron's blast, Mako's bite, pacing of the turtle and impeded swiftness all into caltrops (45 second duration. Thats a total of 20 procs per activation)! Did you know it accepts slow, PBAoE AND Targeted AoE!? Can't wait to see it in action!

Ian

A few nitpicky things:

[ QUOTE ]
For more information on Enhancement Diversification, see this article on ParagonWiki.com.


[/ QUOTE ]

The link sends me to the main page and not the ED page. But maybe that's just me..

[ QUOTE ]
The fourth SO you slot is providing benefit above 60% (note, this is calculated based on the raw values of the SOs, not the reduced value). So you only get 0.15 (15%) of its value. 15% of 20% is 3%. So you now have 60% total benefit, instead of 80%. The fifth and sixth SOs would similarly provide 15% of the SO strength, so SO #5 brings you to 63%, and #6 brings you to 66%.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4th SO actually would net 59%, the 5th 62% ect..

[ QUOTE ]
Hide also provides the highest -perception (i.e. stealth) of any power,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite true. Invisibility powers provide more in PvP and SI provides more in PvP and PvE.

[ QUOTE ]
If hover was 5-slotted with defense SOs (net 5% defense) the boost would still be 2.5% (to 7.5% total defense).

[/ QUOTE ]

Must have overlooked this when changing to account for ED?

[ QUOTE ]
The two most common tohit buffs are build up and Aim, and both are high order tohit buff (the exact numbers are being currently debated: its quite possible that both BU and Aim have much lower tohit values than originally assumed, but even the lower debated numbers are still very high relative to most defense numbers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Have the values changed since CoD?

But great revisit to an already great guide.

Ian

It may be frowned upon to ressurect such an old thread but I feel that the new generation of players aren't killing skuls as efficiently as was once done. Indeed, just the other day I encountered one young rapscallion who said that he'd never killed skuls before! It is my sincere hope that this excellent guide can once more steer the super-powered youth of Paragon City towards KR and PP where they may learn the lessons that allowed us to become the stalwart protectors of the innocent we are today!

You can get 5 of each different % amount. so 5 7.5's, 5 5's, 5 4's ect..

[ QUOTE ]
Any questions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still the same one. That +107.5% from IO's, is it applying to your base run speed of 21ft/s or does it act like all other set bonuses and apply as an enhancement to all powers that give +runspeed? If the latter then an Ideal runspeed and swift enhanced IO build would give only +107.6% runspeed, -160% from granite+rooted = still -52.3%. If the former then you would have +177.6% - 160% = +17.6% while in rooted+granite which seems unlikely to me. I have +20% runspeed in my regen from IOs and I don't notice myslef walking faster than a level 1 toon (no swift or sprint on either of us). Though I haven't formally tested it. Maybe I should...

Ian Moore

Just a quick question. Don't all those bonuses only count as additional enhancement for swift, not a straight addition to your base run speed? So that even an ideal +107.5% run speed boost would really only be giving another +37.6% run speed when applied to swift? So overall you'd have only +105.9% to your base run speed?

Or are the runspeed bonuses different then all the other set bonuses? Have you actually built this and tried it out?

Ian Moore

Nice work on the calculator C! Though the formulas have been around for a while my complete lack of knowledge of all things computer congratulates you on actually doing somethnig useful with them!

Ian Moore

<QR>

Haven't really read this thread so this may have already been mentioned.

I recently got consume and had some concerns about it's effectiveness as well. Certainly given the choice I'd rather have power sink but consume is still a good power. It has a 20 foot radius, which is really a big deal. Also the endurance cost of practically zero means you can use it even when at pretty much nothing. The low endurance cost also means that even if I use it against a single target I'm getting some endurance. It's not the type of power you should plan to use all the time to keep your end bar full but I anticipate that once slotted, I will love it even though it's not power sink.

Ian Moroe

I had a lot of succes with my brute fighting one +6 CoT guide. These guys melee attack does very high damage while in rest and recharges about every 9 seconds. Because you cannot be one shotted as long as you have a full hp bar they will bring you down to 1hp. Was almost perfect for me. I needed a friend to get me a mish with a +6 guide though.

Ian Moore

Correct ED formulas

You bring up a valid point tigerr and it was a concept that I was concerned that my post would not properly convey. Turns out it didn't. Basically it doesn't calculate after each enhancement, it calculates the total potential bonus and then decides the reduction. I know that makes no sense so here is an example: 3 Type B SO's give a bonus of 56% as you said. Now when the fourth is added the game doesn't look and say that 4.44444...% of the new enhancement will still be under the 60% cap (4.4444*0.9=4) and then the rest of the potential are above the cap and are hit with the -85% penalty. Instead the game looks at the potential of ALL the enhancements and then calculates. So here is how it actually goes: 3 Type B SO's have a potential of 60% therefore anything added after that will be penalized at the +60% level. So the fourth SO gets a benefit of 20%*0.15=3% which is added to the 56% for 3 SOs = 59%.

The way to use the formulas is to use your potential bonus to decide which formula to use.

I am 100% confident that my formulas will always work. These will give exact amounts which is something that other ED formulas out there do not do. The most important concept that these formulas show is that there are actually three softcaps, not two! Type A has caps at 70% 90% and 100% and type B has caps at 40% 50% and 60%. People are trying too hard to interperet what the Devs have said that they are missing this critical point. Anyways. I want to get this out there so please keep asking questions if it doesn't make sense.

Ian Moore

Edit. just reread your post. If you test my formulas you will find that they work the way they should.

So since it tells you how much of a buff enhancers are giving you since ED came out I decided it would be very easy to come up with the exact formulas for how much any combination of enhancements would end up giving you. Turns out it was very easy. here are the results:

-Variables-

y - the % bonus your chosen enhancements will actually benefit you.

x - the % bonus that you would have gotten before ED was introduced. There is a chart after the formulas to help determine this value if necessary.

-Formulas-

For the 8.3% - 16.7% - 33.3% enhancement types:

y = x ; [0%,70%]
y = 7% + 0.9x ; (70%,90%]
y = 25% + 0.7x ; (90%,100%]
y = 80% + 0.15x ; (100%,229.77%]

Basically this says that the first 70% count as normal, the next 20% are 90% effective, the next 10% are 70% effective and everything above 100% is 15% effective.

For the 5% - 10% - 20% enhancement types:

y = x ; [0%,40%]
y = 4% + 0.9x ; (40%,50%]
y = 14% + 0.7x ; (50%,60%]
y = 47% + 0.15x ; (60%,138%]

So the first 40% count as normal, the next 10% are 90% effective, the next 10% after that are 70% effective and everything after 60% is 15% effective.

OK so here is a chart of the % bonus each enhancement gives to make finding x easier (yes I know it's ugly):

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> | -3 | -2 | -1 | 0 | +1 | +2 | +3
-----------------------------------------------------------
TO | 05.81 | 06.64 | 07.47 | 08.3 | 08.715 | 09.13 | 09.545
DO | 11.69 | 13.36 | 15.03 | 16.7 | 17.535 | 18.37 | 19.205
SO | 23.31 | 26.64 | 29.97 | 33.3 | 34.965 | 36.63 | 38.295</pre><hr />

Now for an example:

A power slotted for damage with a +2 SO, an even SO, a -1 DO and a +3 TO.

36.63 + 33.3 + 15.03 + 5.81 = 90.77% so:

y = 25 + 0.7(90.77) = 88.539, displayed as 88.5

Ok. A few more points to ponder. The enhancement bonuses are exactly 8.3, 16.7 and 33.3. Not 100/12, 100/6 and 100/3. The unsimplified formulas are (in case anybody besides me cares):

y = x
y = 70 + 0.9(x - 70)
y = 70 + 0.9(90 - 70) + 0.7(x - 90)
y = 70 + 0.9(90 - 70) + 0.7(100 - 90) + 0.15(x - 100)

and

y = x
y = 40 + 0.9(x - 40)
y = 40 + 0.9(50 - 40) + 0.7(x - 50)
y = 40 + 0.9(50 - 40) + 0.7(60 - 50) + 0.15(x - 60)

Now this last part really is useless. Here is the observations I recorded from my in-game tests:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Pre ED - observed actual amount (number of enhancements and relative level)
Note: all DOs
.
Type A (8.3, 16.7, 33.3)
.
060.120 - 60.1 (-,-,-,-)
061.790 - 61.8 (0,-,-,-)
063.460 - 63.5 (0,0,-,-)
065.130 - 65.1 (0,0,0,-)
066.800 - 66.8 (0,0,0,0)
067.635 - 67.6 (+,0,0,0)
068.470 - 68.5 (+,+,0,0)
069.305 - 69.3 (+,+,+,0)
070.140 - 70.1 (+,+,+,+)
075.150 - 74.6 (-,-,-,-,-)
076.820 - 76.1 (0,-,-,-,-)
078.490 - 77.6 (0,0,-,-,-)
080.160 - 79.1 (0,0,0,-,-)
081.830 - 80.6 (0,0,0,0,-)
083.500 - 82.1 (0,0,0,0,0)
084.335 - 82.9 (+,0,0,0,0)
085.170 - 83.7 (+,+,0,0,0)
086.005 - 84.4 (+,+,+,0,0)
086.840 - 85.2 (+,+,+,+,0)
087.675 - 85.9 (+,+,+,+,+)
090.180 - 88.1 (-,-,-,-,-,-)
091.850 - 89.3 (0,-,-,-,-,-)
093.520 - 90.5 (0,0,-,-,-,-)
095.190 - 91.6 (0,0,0,-,-,-)
096.860 - 92.8 (0,0,0,0,-,-)
098.530 - 94.0 (0,0,0,0,0,-)
100.200 - 95.0 (0,0,0,0,0,0)
101.035 - 95.2 (+,0,0,0,0,0)
101.870 - 95.3 (+,+,0,0,0,0)
102.705 - 95.4 (+,+,+,0,0,0)
103.540 - 95.5 (+,+,+,+,0,0)
104.375 - 95.7 (+,+,+,+,+,0)
105.210 - 95.8 (+,+,+,+,+,+)
.
Type B (5, 10, 20)
.
36.000 - 36.0 (-,-,-,-)
37.000 - 37.0 (0,-,-,-)
38.000 - 38.0 (0,0,-,-)
39.000 - 39.0 (0,0,0,-)
40.000 - 40.0 (0,0,0,0)
40.500 - 40.5 (+,0,0,0)*
41.000 - 40.9 (+,+,0,0)
41.500 - 41.3 (+,+,+,0)*
42.000 - 41.8 (+,+,+,+)
45.000 - 44.5 (-,-,-,-,-)
46.000 - 45.4 (0,-,-,-,-)
47.000 - 46.3 (0,0,-,-,-)
48.000 - 47.2 (0,0,0,-,-)
49.000 - 48.1 (0,0,0,0,-)
50.000 - 49.0 (0,0,0,0,0)
50.500 - 49.3 (+,0,0,0,0)*
51.000 - 49.7 (+,+,0,0,0)
51.500 - 50.1 (+,+,+,0,0)*
52.000 - 50.4 (+,+,+,+,0)
52.500 - 50.8 (+,+,+,+,+)*
54.000 - 51.8 (-,-,-,-,-,-)
55.000 - 52.5 (0,-,-,-,-,-)
56.000 - 53.2 (0,0,-,-,-,-)
57.000 - 53.9 (0,0,0,-,-,-)
58.000 - 54.6 (0,0,0,0,-,-)
59.000 - 55.3 (0,0,0,0,0,-)
60.000 - 56.0 (0,0,0,0,0,0)
60.500 - 56.1 (+,0,0,0,0,0)
61.000 - 56.2 (+,+,0,0,0,0)*
61.500 - 56.2 (+,+,+,0,0,0)
62.000 - 56.3 (+,+,+,+,0,0)
62.500 - 56.4 (+,+,+,+,+,0)
63.000 - 56.4 (+,+,+,+,+,+)* </pre><hr />

* - There is a strange rounding problem. When you end up with a number like xx.x5 it seems to choose at random if it will round it up or down. These data points are examples of these that I found. I have no idea what is causing this.

Also I did numerous other tests coming up with as many troublesom enhancement combos I could think of to make sure that the ONLY thing that matters is the % before ED is applied. And I am happy to report that it is.

I think that that is the end then. If you read this far I admire your patience. The end.

Ian Moore

[ QUOTE ]
It is my understanding (read, was told so, and limited testing supports) that if we say that ranged damage at level 1 do 100% of melee, the two types scale such that the brawl indices for ranged attacks drop gradually up to about level 20, and then are stable at about 83% of melee.
After level 20, for instance, gleaming bolt is stable at a plausible 1.33 BI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks so much. That makes complete sense and it's very good news. Sorry for doubting you doc. Your numbers are golden!

Ian Moore

First of all: Great Guide!! I still dream of some day hitting 50 with Vinny and getting a Kheldian (probably gonna pick peacebringer) and reading stuff like this makes me want it bad. But not bad enough to actually do the grind thing with him again...

But anyways, I read somewhere that the ranged attacks of kheldians scale at a different rate than the melee attacks of a kheldian do. I'm not sure this is true or not since I can't get a kheldian (Never gonna reach 50 if I keep making alts when I get bored!!) but maybe it is something you might think of looking into. I suspect that it is true which is why you are getting such funky Brawl inexes for ranged powers and such neat ones from melee attacks (Radiant Strike 2.778 Smashing + 2.667 Energy which is the same as blaster energy punch and Incandescent Strike 5.556 Energy + 4.334 Smashing which is the same as total focus except that total focus is 7.1111 and 2.7778) So if this is the case then the brawl inexes you have for ranged attacks would be invalid as they would change as level changes. Instead you would need to do what defenders have to do and use another ranged attack to figure out what the "ranged brawl" would be and make brawl indexes for that (which is what the post that I read had done although for the life of me I can't find it again.) although that might give the false impression that the ranged attacks will do more than they actually will (since based on what I see ranged attacks scale more slowly than melee attacks). You could also make something like a "gleaming bolt index" or something clunky like that where it is the base damage of gleaming bolt you are using as opposed to brawl.

What I see from at least the first 3 powers is that they are about 83.34% off from what they would be if ranged attacks scaled the same as melee attacks:

Gleaming Bolt - 1.389 -&gt; 1.6667
Glinting Eye - 2.315 -&gt; 2.7778
Gleaming Blast - 3.797 -&gt; 4.5556

I would guess that you tested all BI's at the same level so they'd all be approx 83.34% off. The second number above would be "ranged brawl indexes" and would be hard to use since you'd have to figure out what "ranged brawl" is by using another of your ranged powers. Although the purpose of the brawl index is more for comparison purposes anyways. Maybe just include a note about how ranged attacks actually scale more slowly and therefore will do less damage than a melee attack of similar brawl index. Or if you want the "Gleaming Bolt index" (I personally hate the way that sounds) for those 3 attacks it would be:

Gleaming Bolt - 1.000
Glinting Eye - 1.6667
Gleaming blast - 2.7333

Finally I have no idea how scaling of bright nova and white dwarf might work or if they are just fine. Bright nova's numbers look ok although none of them quite match current BI's and White dwarf seems really funky but I can't seem to find another power that has the same ratios as White Dwarf Strike or White Dwarf Strike. So ya. that is my 2 cents. See ya!

Ian Moore

Excellent guide. Very informitive and all useful! 5 stars!

So I've started up a list of brawl values by level and AT (click link in sig) so if the BI has helped you and you don't have a power to contribute to this list and want to help I'm sure you can help with the other list. At least check it out.

Ian Moore

I haven't really considered kheldian BI's personally though I'm sure they can be found elsewhere. The reason I haven't really sunk my teath into them is because the kheldian melee attacks scale at a different rate than their ranged attacks. So BI's would work for melee but not ranged attacks. Also since I am lazy and my highest hero is level 35 I don't have a kheldian and I would like to be familiar with them and able to do my own tests with them before I add it to the BIs listed here. I once found a post by someone that listed alot of good info about kheldian BIs but for the life of me can't find it now. Oh well...

Ian Moore

Hello boys! I'm baaaaaack!! And man does it feel good to be back. So lets address some stuff because I feel like it:

[ QUOTE ]
Am I correct to understand that they both have a kind of a critical hit, but instead of just having a chance to double the damage, they also have a chance to do additional 50% damage? Also, how were these numbers calculated, did you actually used Nova/Inferno 40-50 times in a row and watched for criticals or have they been posted by a dev?

[/ QUOTE ]
The inferno/nova type power numbers came from an amazing post by geko.

[ QUOTE ]
I think your Controller numbers are probably a little off..

[/ QUOTE ]

DodgerTA would you care to elaborate on that a bit with some numbers? It worries me that something like that would happen.

[ QUOTE ]
I do find it hard to believe that controllers do twice as much damage with psychic blast as defenders do... not entirely unreasonable, just hard to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You meant blasters not controllers right?

And thanks again _Quatermain_!

So I guess it's time to make a section for the APPs eh? I don't really want to though but it is pretty simple stuff I guess. Not like Kheldians. Now they are screwed up! But anyways, happy to be back! Se ya!

Ian Moore

Well jones, Looks like hurl is 4.5556 Smashing. Thanks alot for the amount of research you did on it. Ya the variation comes from the inaccuracy of the dialog box numbers. That and the rounding error. I am too lazy to check right now but I guarantee that if you were to do the fancy min/max on each of those tests 4.5555.... (16.4/3.6) will fall into the range. I can say with a great deal of faith that the exact brawl index value for hurl is 16.4/3.6 or 41/9.

And.... TYPO!!!!!! hooray! Thanks for finding it ugu! (yes I've decided to call you ugu). I probably never would have noticed that... ever! You've just earned yourself a spot in the

[ QUOTE ]
Special thanks to (Hopefully in alphabetical order):

[/ QUOTE ]
section! (prestige galore)

Seriously though, thanks (I love you man!)

*snap* woah, it must be 120 in the morning again (us mormons aren't used to "partying" past midnight much *gasp*)

Well, happy new year everybody! I'm off for a few more rounds of snowracing in a t-shirt (I love blizzards). BYE!!

Crazed Canadian Ian Moore

[ QUOTE ]
Did some number crunching on Shadow Maul (Scrapper/Dark Melee) and I get some really unusual values. Base damage appears to be 2.695, not 2.7 as one would expect. 2.695 is my best guess, possible range is [2.6944, 2.6953]. Seems odd the devs would bother to enter 3 decimals instead of 1 when the difference in damage is less than 0.2%.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I didn't ignore you blastinator. Just wanted to try something myself here first. I don't have a DM scrapper of any significant level but I do have a level 18 AR blaster and I figured that the brawl index for burst and shadow maul would be the same. So I went to the test server and swallowed 16 enrages and did a burst brawl index test complete with rounding errors. Here's what I came up with:

Level of bad guy/brawl/burst

Fully enraged to hit the damage cap (which doesn't seen to be 400%. At least at level 18 anyways)

level 1 / 97.29 / 72.96
low 0.749858691742
high 0.750038542577

Level 2 / 93.81 / 70.36
low 0.749960031974
high 0.750146565048

Unenhanced

Level 1 / 26.29 / 19.71
low 0.749477285687
high 0.750142612664

Level 2 / 25.23 / 19.01
low 0.749655036468
high 0.750345099586

So we're between 0.749960031974 and 0.750038542577 for burst. ( the first test I did actually got me numbers that agreed with your shadow maul numbers but I didn't record the numbers nor can I remember the conditions and I could not reproduce it again so these are accurate I guess)

So then I decided to make a DM hero and level him a bit and try it with shadow maul and I got:

Level 2 / 19.44 / 14.55
low 0.748136725777
high 0.749035741836

So now I don't know what to believe. I wish I had a really high level DM scrapper that I could do this with as well. Man why would they do this to me? I've been trying to come up with a reasonable number for it. I beleive you are right about the 2.695 (at level 1). 2.695 * 8 is 21.56 which is exactly 10% more than 19.6 which falls into the 10 + 3.2x that most attacks fall into. It's true that this is could be a much nicer number. Ah well. What level was the scrapper that you tested with? Was it versus level 1 minions while hitting the damage cap?

Does anybody have a magic wand that I can borrow to give me 8 level 50 heroes of each archtype that I can mold to my desire to test with? Then I can dissapear for a few days and just finish this blasted thing once and for all... until it changes.

No? Ah well. See ya for now then.

Ian Moore

P.S: So I'm gonna change the index for SM to 0.7486 (2.695/3.6). ...grumble grumble...

You really got 8.1 for cleave? Can you give me the raw numbers for this one? What I was given before was 7.6667 so I want to make sure there isn't any errors.

Ian Moore

Your numbers don't contradict the listed numbers. It's just that the numbers that show up in the window are not 100% accurate. They are accurate only to 2 decimal places so you won't always get the esact same values between levels. And there is also the rounding error. So for example.

Damage for your brawl in the chat window - 88.21
Possible range for the actual damage - 88.215 to 88.225

Damage for your stonefist in the chat window - 245.05
Possible range for the actual damage - 245.055 to 245.065

So the actual range for the brawl index is anywhere from

245.065/88.215 or 2.77804228306...

to

245.055/88.225 or 2.77761405497...

If we do this for the rest of them we get:

Stone Mallet - 4.55597120671... to 4.55534145650...
Heavy Mallet - 6.33378677096... to 6.33295551148...
Hurl Boulder - 4.55597120671... to 4.55534145650...
Tremor - 2.77804228306... to 2.77761405497...
Seismic Smash - 9.88964461826... to 9.88841031454...

So let me tell you what I do to get the numbers I put in the brawl index. Lets take Seismic smash: I would take your 9.8900 and multiply by 3.6 (the damage scrappers and blasters do at level 1) and I get 35.604 So that is close to 35.6 and 35.6 is in the 10 + 3.2x range that most attacks fall into. So then I divide 35.6 by 3.6, get 9.88888888888...... and say the Brawl Index is 9.8889. And there you have it!

So ya. Um, I was bored when I did this....

Ian Moore