Garrik

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I thought I read that they had fixed the Cone Range HO bug on Test. Not sure, but I believe the fix is on the way.

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It is fixed. They fixed the cone range and also fixed the normal range portion so when you throw something like Energy Torrent farther back, it actually hits the enemy now.

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Anyone know if this has made it to live yet? Thanks!

-Garrik

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3. What do the new archetypes mean?

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Hmmm. They mean you get 5 new archetypes that don't match up exactly to any of the CoH archetypes. We want them to feel different and match the roles of various villian concepts you see in your favorite comics. And we want them to work together as a well-balanced team. Bad guys work in groups too, after all.

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Italics added by me.

I've been dwelling on this thought for the last couple of hours and it doesn't sit well with me. Sure, bad guys work in groups, but they don't do it very well. As a matter of fact, the infighting and power struggles within a villain group usually cause the group to collapse and that's why the heros win.

From a purely role-playing standpoint, it seems to me that different members in a villain group have different goals and tactics. Some thoughts on that:

1. Usually, you have lots of baddies that fall into the 'underling' category. These guys are the brainless ones that go do most of the 'dirty' work. They range from random normal human thugs (who are dumb) to super-powered thugs (who are generally dumb as well). We usually see them screw up their mission, get confused by changes in the circumstances of the mission, or just beating stuff until they succeed. It seems to me that they would get the most xp from beating people.

2. You always have someone with a plan. The plan-guy doesn't often do missions himself, but seems like he leaves things in his minions hands. When he does go on a mission, he directs things and basically spoon-feeds them instructions. It seems that when he's got the mission done, he bails and leaves his minions to clean up. In this case, it would seem to me that defeating enemies is not the way to get xp for this guy, but for mission completion. He's got a broader strategic picture to work from, and is not concerned with beating people up. He works for the mission goal at all cost.

3. The mercenary, or loner. The main villain Head-Guy(tm) always has someone that reports only to him. He gets sent on errands that can't be trusted to group #1 above. Sometimes he supervises group #1, sometimes he goes alone. This person is usually stealthy, and is more mission-focused than beating up people. However, he seems like he would get XP from both mission completions and defeating foes.

I'm sure with some additional thought, you can come up with some additional bad guy types, and even see how they compare to the CoV archetypes. However, I'm focusing on the statement that "...bad guys work in groups...." They certainly do, but that doesn't mean they work well in groups. One interesting mechanism you could include in the XP model for CoV is not to split XP evenly between all members. Villains tend to be more selfish than heroes, and would generally try to get all the XP for themselves. The thugs and fighters might only get xp for defeating foes, while the thinkers might only get xp for mission completion. This would drive group #2 for mission completion at all costs, and he would never want to stick around and mop up the rest of the enemies in a mission. However, his thug buddies are more concerned with target practice and would get no bonus for finishing the mission. They just don't care.

I think this would be a really neat mechanism to drive distrust and a villainous thought process to playing in CoV. Balancing it would be hell. The other thing I think about is that it sounds neat when I'm daydreaming it, but would it be actually fun to play that way?

Thoughts?

-Garrik

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...However, when they finally roll back the boss changes they've been saying they're going to roll back for a the last month or so, that might change some of the numbers.

-Garrik

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The boss changes were rolled back almost a week ago (February 1st). Check out the Recent Updates link on the home page.

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*cough*cough* As I was saying, now that they've rolled back the boss changes, these numbers will probably change....

Thanks for the heads up. I was ill during that update and didn't scan the updates page with as much zeal as usual.

-Garrik

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HAS ANY of this stuff been changed since Issue 3?

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The mission difficulty slider came out IN issue #3. I'm pretty sure nothing major has been changed since it's release.

However, when they finally roll back the boss changes they've been saying they're going to roll back for a the last month or so, that might change some of the numbers.

-Garrik

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When you are in a TF if you click on the Mission tab you will see the TF set at Hard-Boiled, no matter what.
Unless there is a bug, the problem with TF's is the following:
1) People get 8 ppl and often not a good mix of AT's or experienced players
1a) With 8 ppl comes the 99.9% likelihood that all the people are not the same level
2) At 6 people the mission ramps up 1 level
3) With the current patch, bosses are already +1 level.
So you end up in a TF with bosses that are effectively deep purple to some people on the team...and with an 8-player TF, there are usually 2-4 bosses per spawn.
Even for the highest level player in the TF, the bosses will be purple (+2 colors for being a boss, then +1 for 8 players, and +1 for boss patch from Issue 3).


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More excellent work. Interesting how the results look once you add in the mission XP bonus.

According to the group I was with for part ot the Striga TF last night, everyone saw their own difficulty when they looked at the mission tab during the TF. We were using Team Speak, so it was pretty easy to communicate, so I don't think there was any confusion. However, my own difficulty with that character was still at the default, so I couldn't confirm what others were seeing directly.

**edit - just confirmed this as I'm still on the TF. I changed my setting to unyielding and now my mission tab reflects that.

I do agreee with your assessment in general. In my case last night, it was 4 people from my SG, 3 random invites. So not the best assembled team. The TL, who was also the highest level, had his difficulty set to Unyielding. Doing Moonfire, with a team of 7, most of the baddies were 29-30. Most reports I've seen say the bad guys are 28-29 for this TF, so it seems to me that a team this size would generate 29-30s at the default level.

Since we were all 27 and under, however, it was pretty tough going. But I have yet to see a red name or some hard testing of slider vs. TF.

-Garrik

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Limitations of these results:
1) This does not include mission awards. I do not have data on how the slider affects the final mission award. The mission award will also affect XP/minute...for example, Rugged becomes even more inefficient.
When I finally finished the mission (for real) on Invincible, I got 2,000 XP and 2,000 INF.

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3) Please keep in mind that this only applies to solo play, AFAIK.
I'm not really sure how the slider settings interact between multiple players. The assumption is that it sets according to the leader...is this true?
If not, two people would need to do this fifteen times!!!

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Great info! The slider only affects mobs in the mission. The mission XP is the same for any difficulty, as noted by the above poster. This I have tested.

However, your comment about these results only applying to solo play appears to be a hole in the knowledge base. I did some searching last night, and couldn't find a good answer on the boards. A lot of speculation, but no testing.

To add more speculation: From my experience, it seems that the mission owner's slider determines the difficulty. THus, if you have a team with someone who is 2 levels below everyone else, they could crank up the difficulty to bring it more in line with the rest of the team.

Additionally, noone seems to know how TFs and Trials are affected by the difficulty slider. I found several posts saying they discovered the hard way that the difficulty is affected, but that doesn't provide meaningful insight into how. Is it the leader? The highest level person?

Additionally, there has been some discussion on the Victory boards that cranking up the difficulty is great for solo, duo, maybe even 3-4 players. However, most seem in agreement that once you get to 6 or higher, the debt rate takes a large jump.

I expect this is related to the general rule that anytime you had a 6+ team, missions would spawn +1 to the level they would have otherwise. Therefore, you've added difficulty with the slider, then the levels get bumped up again with 6+. +3/+4 enemies are doable in small doses. But if you have a large group (like when you have 6 people in a mission) they become deadly to most teams.

-Garrik

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I suppose over the life of your character, 11M is a small amount, but I'd still prefer to save my money, especially when it seems to have no major effect (for me) to have the latest level enhancements. Level 37 was really pretty painless...so, no complaints from me in the damage department.

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Someday maybe we'll have something to do with all that money. Then it will matter!

Sorry to hijack the original thread a bit - hope someone finds it useful!

-Garrik

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The poster said there is no good reason, and to me, 2M influence is a good reason. Tell me you wouldn't participate in a mission or costume contest if it offered 2M influence.

And, I do sweat 1.62M influence at 38th level. I don't know of any other way to spend influence than to buy Enhancements and Inspirations (trivial at this point), but I do tend to only go to one shop and sell instead of running around to all the specialty shops just to sell the 1-2 enhances that I have for that origin.

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I wouldn't participate in a mission or costume contest for 2M. I might do it for fun, but not for the money. In fact, I gave away 1M at the last costume contest my SG sponsored.

Having said that, some food for thought:

1. You get roughly 2/3 the value for enhancements not sold at the proper store. If you're worried about influence, you might want to consider selling in Talos where the round trip to several stores only takes a minute.

2. At level 37, you're running around with all white enhancements. If you buy lvl 40s that will be +3 to you, you get a bonus of 1.15x the enhancement for each one. For a power that does 100 base points of damage with 5 SO damages in it, you do 266.5 points to my 291.5 points.

3. I'm not trying to knock how you play the game - your money, your time. I'm just trying to allow people who may not understand the math to see the difference in approaches.

4. The real difference between the 2 methods you laid out for purchasing enhancements is in when you buy the 'next level' upgrade. I buy them as soon as available (i.e., 40s at level 37). When I do, I cannot combine, but must replace. You wait one additional level, so when you buy the level 40s, you can combine with your existing enhancements. This saves you one round of purchases. The original statement was that there was no good reason to wait. There is a reason to wait, but how you define good is key. To me, a savings of 2M is not a good reason, at least not in my current financial situation. However, this may be a great reason for you!

-Garrik

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1.62M more your way?

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If you're sweating 1.62M in the level 37-38 range, you must have something else you're spending your cash on. I've given away 3-4 million, bought new enhancements as early and as often as possible, and I still have 3-4 million just sitting there at level 39. My SG mates in their 40s have between 15-20 million.

Assuming you can find someone to help transfer inf, all you need is one character above 35 and money problems are pretty much over.

-Garrik

I have to step back a minute and mention that this has ended up being a very interesting and thought provoking thread. There has been very little hostility, and much actual discussion.

After hearing some opinions that differ than my own, I've decided to start a new alt with the express intent of checking things out again from 0. I had a few low level characters that did some missions in the hollows, but none that I had started new since issue #2.

I've just dinged 4, and will play more today to see how it goes in the hollows. However, I do see a larger number of enemies and some decidedly more difficult ones in my first few missions just in AP.

I still haven't been defeated yet (with my storm summoning defender) and have teamed with my wife as a blaster. It's been a little tough, but careful play and good use of inspirations has paid off so far. We'll see how this translates in the hollows.

Not to be pessimistic, but I do have to wonder if anything will come from our discussions here. I know the devs read these boards regularly, but there's a lot of stuff here. I don't know if our input will make a difference or not.

Anyway, so far you've at least managed to make me question my ideas enough to start over and take a closer look. We'll see how my opinion ends up after trying some of these missions (hopefully tonight).

-Garrik

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It wasn't too difficult anymore because you out-levelled your mission.

And what about the part where I chopped up hordes of Outcasts and Trolls on the street?

How about the fact that I was able to clear out Eel's map, +1 spawns and all, except for him?

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And yet, you couldn't finish the mission. COULD NOT. You keep going on about what you did do, when you could choose your targets, make educated selections, and fight when and where you wanted to. But the fact remains that you had to 'game' the system in order to finish a mission.

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If people can choose their own difficulty, what's the point of having Controllers, Defenders or Tankers, classes meant to function in support roles? Everyone will pick fights they don't need groups for. Should everyone be able to solo like a Scrapper, just do away with the idea of support classes entirely? If they could the game would be even more ridiculously easy when they grouped -- and in any case, what's the point of an MMO in which everyone solos? The developers could never include content that needed any real teamwork to overcome, because the necessary support roles wouldn't exist. Support classes need the game to be difficult so that other players will value and appreciate their help.

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This I generally agree with, but you make the comment that 'should everyone be able to solo like a scrapper.' I refer you back to the above quote that at the current difficulty, you were unable to effectively solo as a scrapper.

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It is critically important that the lower levels (1 to 12 or 14) be relatively easy and fun.

No, it isn't. It is important that they be challenging, that players learn -- fast -- that they will have to use tactics in order to win fights, and that they may be faced with adversaries they just can't beat without help.

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The problem is that you have people who've never played a computer game before (like my wife) trying this game. I personally like the fact that she's stuck with it. She's getting frustrated with some of her alts in the hollows now, and she's a reasonably experienced player. If she came here on the first night she played, she probably wouldn't have bothered coming back.

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Do you really want more challenge in less time or more challenge in more time?

I want more challenge all of the time. I want an end to people taking on 8-10 white cons with a level 5 character and winning. I want Statesman's "one hero = three +0 Minions" to be a reality instead of a joke in bad taste. I want an end to herding through the simple expedient of ensuring that anyone even trying to pull that many mobs will die instantly. I want to have to stop and think about what I'm doing when I see a +0 Boss, not just hit BuildUp and chop him to pieces. I want people to be afraid of red cons, not happy they're getting more experience. I want to see Blasters looking for groups, and I want to see Tankers, Controllers and Defenders getting groups without having to beg for them.

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This I agree with as well. However, according to Statesman, the intent of issue #2 was not to raise the difficulty of the game. They will address that problem later, presumably with some warning and discussion about it first. However, I think it's clear that the early level game difficulty was in fact raised.

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I'll grant you that you did finish it solo. How many first time level 5 players, probably still trying to figure out the interface, know they can leave a boss in a mission, go make a level, get some inspirations and come back to mop up?

By level four, your trainer will tell you that if you face a mission that's too difficult you should get help or gain levels before attempting it again, so the answer to your question is ALL OF THEM. There is no excuse for not paying heed to the instructions.

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On your first night playing the game, you're so overwhelmed with new things that you don't even know what's important. Ever read the thread on the Guide board entitled something like 'Things I wish I'd known about CoH'? It's a collection of little things people without photographic memories put together for new people to give them some tips. It took some people a lot of levels before they figured out they could even sell enhancements. Not everyone is a master of online gaming, and understands the game mechanics immediately.

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How many of them are familiar with which powers to take at a given level so they're not completely useless at lower levels?

You really can't gimp yourself at level 5.

Especially scrappers, where almost every primary powerset has a total loser power in the first three?

That's hardly so. The worst I could say is that many players might not know they don't need to take both the slow and fast attack powers, only one or the other.

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I disagree, but it's not particularly relevant. My only point is that if you have a plan for your character, you're several steps ahead of the first time player. You likely have an optimum build (for your level) and still could not complete the mission. If your build is suboptimum, you have no chance.

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Now, ignoring the new players for a second. If a scrapper can't solo a mission, how do you expect another class to be able to?

I don't. They could outlevel it. Soloing is provisional for all ATs except Scrappers.

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I'll concede that one.

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Imagine a team of a tank, a defender, and a controller trying to tackle that mission. Nobody at that level has status defense.

Direct resistance to status effects: Accelerate Metabolism (Radiation Emission, level 2), 02 Boost (Storm Summoning, level 1)

Indirect protection: Twilight Grasp (Dark Miasma, level 1), Deflection Shield (Force Field, level 1), Radiation Infection (Radiation Emission, level 1) -- because if they can't hit you, they can't change your status.

Active Countermeasures: Stone Cages (Earth Control, level 2), Fire Cages (Fire Control, level 2), Frostbite (Ice Control, level 2) -- because Immobilized mobs can't reach you to hit you, and if they can't hit you.... I'm only counting AEs here, not the single-target versions, on the premise that you'll have one Controller and many mobs.

It looks to me like at level 5, there are many things a Defender or Controller could bring to the table to help against mobs with disorients.

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Perhaps my choice of words was too strong, or perhaps you took me a little too literally. However, I'd argue that most of the indirect and active measures are going to be tough going. One attack on a boss won't hold, if it even hits.

If you happen to have the right powersets, you do have some protection. However, every group that goes into this mission needs protection from them. I was in a mission there the other night with a large group, and there were so many status effects flying that we could barely stand up. With all the knocking back and sleeping, we could have used a fleet of clear minds.

Chain stuns make a quick end for most scrappers and tankers. My guess is that a group engineered for these early missions might be ok with the right mix of powers. However, pick-up groups will suck.

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But the fact that the solo class of the game cannot solo a door mission indicates to me that something is broken.

All it says to me is that Hurricane is a PITA, but I knew that already.

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Agree on hurricane. But do you think a level 5 character should be facing hurricanes? Unless it's changed since the publication of the manual (and a lot has), it becomes available to players at level 20.

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Do you think your experience would have been fun if that was your first night in the game? Imagine being told to go to the hollows, and trying to get to your mission. If you don't even know what an agro radius is, and haven't had a chance to understand the implications of the colors of villians, how could you even make it to a mission without dying?

By level 5, players will know what an agro radius is, and you have had the implications of the con colors explained to you in the tutorial. How stupid do you think newbies are?

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You must never put together pick-up groups. I've explained agro to people in their teens. I've even seen some 20th level characters get leveled because they thought they were far enough from a group they were trying to run by. I think people should learn about these things early, but this is a little bit of force feeding.

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There are no special tactics, or whatever to be employed that have no been employed before that most of us are used it, and fod forbid we have to go back to quasi-EQ Monk Pulling lameassness to do anything.

IOW, you want to be able to just run in and mash keys without any thought, and still win.

No.

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I like a challenge, but asking new players to pull like pros is not going to happen. Game strategy and tactics are learned. Experience is the best teacher, with studying a close second. Expecting a level 5 character to have experience is silly.

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I stated numerous times that I am PRO-CHALLENGE.

No, you are not. You are pro-false-challenge. You want the game to look challenging, but not really be challening. You want people to be able to choose their difficulty, to which I suggest you may have confused this with a console game.

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Some people don't play the game for challenge. For this game to continue to be as successful as it has, it has to have broad appeal. Appealing to people who don't have Sun Tzu on their desk is a good thing. Being able to select your difficulty is a good solution. Statesman's all about the risk vs. reward, so I'm sure more difficult missions will have better rewards.

When my grandmother wants to play, she can thrash some baddies without combing the forums for tips on building the best blaster. I think everyone wins then.

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Virtue (Kat/SR)
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That brought me to the two door missions, and I was still at level 5, four blocks to 6.

Spawns were a mix of whites and yellows. I was forced to spend some inspirations dealing with a bad fight on the second level, but decided to go after the Eel anyway rather than run back to restock. The Eel spawned +1 and beat me. For the rematch I came back with better inspirations, but lost again because of the Hurricane -- if he'd been the Lightning Field variant I'd have won easily.

I realised this was a non-starter so I abandoned the mission for my first King's Row mission (Security Chief). This got me level 6 (and Hover). I then went back and took out the now +0 Electric Eel with no real problem. By this time it had gotten late, so I ran back to the entrance. Bedrock can wait until tomorrow.

So how is this too difficult, again? The only thing I would complain about here is Hurricane, which is a royal pain for melee ATs at every level. If Outcast are going to get it, better that the LTs have it and not the Bosses -- the LTs are easier to kill. Level 5 can solo in a Hazard Zone and people complain the game is too hard? Please.

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So you're telling me that your scrapper, THE solo class of the game, couldn't solo a mission at level 5. You were forced to go outside the mission, make a level, and come back to beat it. Even with expert inspiration use, mad tactics, and all the strategy you could muster, you couldn't complete your mission without a workaround.

I'll grant you that you did finish it solo. How many first time level 5 players, probably still trying to figure out the interface, know they can leave a boss in a mission, go make a level, get some inspirations and come back to mop up? How many of them are familiar with which powers to take at a given level so they're not completely useless at lower levels? Especially scrappers, where almost every primary powerset has a total loser power in the first three?

Now, ignoring the new players for a second. If a scrapper can't solo a mission, how do you expect another class to be able to? Or is the game now supposed to be only groups at low levels? Imagine a team of a tank, a defender, and a controller trying to tackle that mission. Nobody at that level has status defense. Add a few more LTs and minions (since the mission would scale for 3 players), and it would be a stun fest with three trips to the hospital.

The interesting part is that for the mid-level game, I find the added challenge of the +1 bosses great. My 27 Spines/Regen scrapper still solos well, and the red boss at the end is a tasty treat. However, I don't think this change scales down well.

Regarding hazard zone/door mission:
Choosing villians of appropriate difficulty, anyone can solo in most zones. Defenders soloing a group of green/greys might not be real fun, but it can be done. However, door missions are door missions. I don't choose the difficulty of the spawns in the door mission. I expect the devs to have mobs spawn that will be an appropriate challenge for my group. Some area real easy, some not. But the fact that the solo class of the game cannot solo a door mission indicates to me that something is broken.

Do you think your experience would have been fun if that was your first night in the game? Imagine being told to go to the hollows, and trying to get to your mission. If you don't even know what an agro radius is, and haven't had a chance to understand the implications of the colors of villians, how could you even make it to a mission without dying?

-Garrik

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I have a different measurement for Stamina. I measured the number of seconds between ticks and the amount of Stamina gained per tick by emptying my bar and watching the regeneration. Normally this rate is 4 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which you have on the chart. However, with Stamina (no enh), my rate is 3 seconds for 6.67 endurance pts. which is a gain of 0.55555555555 which matches what you have for Quick Recovery. Another thread about Quick Recovery and Stamina not stacking confirms this, although I do not have a link for it off hand.

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This is a great thread, and has some interesting perspective on how the numbers work, and why the spines/regen scrappers make such a great combo.

I'm no expert on how the powers work, but something you said in the above post and something I remember hearing about before collided in my head. I recall someone stating that QR causes the amount of END recovered each tick to increase, and that Stamina causes the time between endurance recovery ticks to drop. So with QR, you get more END each tick, and with Stamina, the ticks come faster. Therefore the effects on slotting would be different, though the EPS is still a valid way to measure which one is better.

If this is the case, determining the optimal slotting would require a bit of algebra, but could be done.

Does this jive with your experiences?

-Garrik

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I've tried a few and the closest I could come up with was, /macro Inc "group $target, incoming!$$powerexec_name Teleport Foe", but it doesn't seem to work. It looks to me like it should, but it doesn't recognize the power I'm telling it to activate or so the game tells me.


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assuming you're posting exactly what you put in the macro, you need to use 'powexec_name' vice 'powerexec_name'

-Garrik