More MMOs need to have a combat system like this game.


8_Ball

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
lol.
well alright then.
Golden Girl has SIXTY SEVEN THOUSAND POSTS, dude.

I think she's entitled to a little arrogance.


Save City of Heroes!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnion View Post
Golden Girl has SIXTY SEVEN THOUSAND POSTS, dude.

I think she's entitled to a little arrogance.
You neglect to note that almost all of them are certified content-free, guaranteed not to cause any unwanted thoughts or insight, not to be used while higher mental functions are engaged, may cause temporary or permanent brain damage.


 

Posted

I liked this system overall. There were obvious things that showed age though.

Pro's-
1.Fight more then two enemies at once!! ZOMG this is so beyond most games it is crazy.
2.Lots of effects, dmg types, secondary effects, etc. Some were more important then others, but thats ok anyway. In the end, IMO, the devs for the most part had figured out how to make powers with potent secondary effects balanced with those without. For the most part.
3. Escape! Holy crap, most MMO's, you cant run away. At least, your odds are really bad that you will survive a retreat. I have never understood this, especially when leaving foes usually resets their health. In CoH, you could flip on a travel power, or even TP right out of the hot zone if you needed to, and most of the time had a good chance to survive and recoup.
4. masterminds. havent really come across anything quite like them elsewhere.
5. Force multipliers. Sure, there are buffers/healzorz in other games, but I havent come across any other game where you had the freedom to totally neuter your foes and make your team into gods at the same time like in CoH. Inother games, it is too unpredictable, meses with the formulas too much, might make pvp issues, whatever. CoH? Who cares, it's fun, let's do it.
6. Difficulty system. Evenas somewhat limited as it is here, I havent found anything like it elsewhere. probably closely tied to that "you can only fight one ravenous racoon at a time" rule.
7. and finally, the enemies here. I like fighting thugs, mutants etc. I dont like fighting for my life, in a 2 minute epic battle against a ravenous racoon. I mean c'mon. IRL I am 6 foot 260 lbs, and i could kill a racoon with a stick. Why my Conan sized warrior almost dies in a drawn out epic fight when he has a razor edged sword and armor on I will never understand.

The cons:
1. mez is binary. I think this was an engine/system limitation. I think a newer game with better system code could have made mez effective and totally not binary.
2. rooting. again, likely could be removed with an updated code.
3. binary accuracy. They masked this well, or as well as could be done I suppose. Really though there should have been a middle ground, where blows could be partially deflected and whatnot. Damage would have varied, which would have totally eliminated the 1-2-3-1-4-1-etc attack chain monotony. the system they had wasnt really awful though.
4.endo bar. dont think there was a way to really improve it within the current system. but newer games did it better in some ways. IMO, I think this might be the one thing CO did better at, at least in the after battle recovery style- there is a lot less downtime in that game.


The only other thing I thought CoH ever lacked were enemies that used buff/debuff sets effectively. It would be really tricky to stick them in at this point, but if there were tsoo sorcerers of a type more often in fights, it would have really mixed things up more. Again, not really a con.


Overall, I dont think a pure port over of this system would be the right way to go for any game. BUT, man, there is a lot other games could learn from CoH. I sure will miss this game.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldagore View Post
I liked this system overall. There were obvious things that showed age though.

Pro's-
1.Fight more then two enemies at once!! ZOMG this is so beyond most games it is crazy.
2.Lots of effects, dmg types, secondary effects, etc. Some were more important then others, but thats ok anyway. In the end, IMO, the devs for the most part had figured out how to make powers with potent secondary effects balanced with those without. For the most part.
3. Escape! Holy crap, most MMO's, you cant run away. At least, your odds are really bad that you will survive a retreat. I have never understood this, especially when leaving foes usually resets their health. In CoH, you could flip on a travel power, or even TP right out of the hot zone if you needed to, and most of the time had a good chance to survive and recoup.
4. masterminds. havent really come across anything quite like them elsewhere.
5. Force multipliers. Sure, there are buffers/healzorz in other games, but I havent come across any other game where you had the freedom to totally neuter your foes and make your team into gods at the same time like in CoH. Inother games, it is too unpredictable, meses with the formulas too much, might make pvp issues, whatever. CoH? Who cares, it's fun, let's do it.
6. Difficulty system. Evenas somewhat limited as it is here, I havent found anything like it elsewhere. probably closely tied to that "you can only fight one ravenous racoon at a time" rule.
7. and finally, the enemies here. I like fighting thugs, mutants etc. I dont like fighting for my life, in a 2 minute epic battle against a ravenous racoon. I mean c'mon. IRL I am 6 foot 260 lbs, and i could kill a racoon with a stick. Why my Conan sized warrior almost dies in a drawn out epic fight when he has a razor edged sword and armor on I will never understand.

The cons:
1. mez is binary. I think this was an engine/system limitation. I think a newer game with better system code could have made mez effective and totally not binary.
2. rooting. again, likely could be removed with an updated code.
3. binary accuracy. They masked this well, or as well as could be done I suppose. Really though there should have been a middle ground, where blows could be partially deflected and whatnot. Damage would have varied, which would have totally eliminated the 1-2-3-1-4-1-etc attack chain monotony. the system they had wasnt really awful though.
4.endo bar. dont think there was a way to really improve it within the current system. but newer games did it better in some ways. IMO, I think this might be the one thing CO did better at, at least in the after battle recovery style- there is a lot less downtime in that game.


The only other thing I thought CoH ever lacked were enemies that used buff/debuff sets effectively. It would be really tricky to stick them in at this point, but if there were tsoo sorcerers of a type more often in fights, it would have really mixed things up more. Again, not really a con.


Overall, I dont think a pure port over of this system would be the right way to go for any game. BUT, man, there is a lot other games could learn from CoH. I sure will miss this game.
Speaking of enemy mobs and sorcs. Yeah I would mind a little more of them, if they actually used more powers than just spam teleport and hurricane. To me over all, the enemy mob in this game was not veyr brave. They seemed to flee just as often as they fight. I mean, it was hard to take the enemy mob in this game as a real threat from all the fleeing. Sorcs were more of an annoyance than an actual threat to anything because they didnt do anything to help their own group besides healing them a bit between teleports. The sorc has two debuffs, both for acc one is one of those dark power toggle things and the other hurricane but it has not effect on the fight at all because that thing is too busy teleporting across the map constantly. It had the potential to be as much of a game changer as the ghost LTs at low levels if not more.

Then back to the cowardly mobs. What kind of AI is that? To me that kind of takes the fun out of the game constantly trying to beat stuff up that seem to have no interesting in actually fighting. What's the point of them even being there? If you have a group of five, then two flee, which has happened on numerous occassions inside door missions and outside, then that leaves three, they dont stand a chance. Then ya kill the other two, when ever they take their sweet time coming back. The AI was too cowardly really for my taste and if this game do come back in some form, hopefully they make braver AI.


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnion View Post
Golden Girl has SIXTY SEVEN THOUSAND POSTS, dude.

I think she's entitled to a little arrogance.
That is absolutely ridiculous.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
yeah, I see it the same way.

Everyone wins in CO.

Want to choose one attack, by all means the choice is there. If you want to be a clawed, ice throwing, sword swinging, arrow shooting, pistol blasting, demon summoning thing in CO you can be that also.

In COX, ya locked into that set and power choices in set roles in set builds.
Funny because whatever I do I can't win in CO like how I did in CoH. True it has more variety but that is unrelated with combat it is about how class system works in both games if we could get any power with limitations similiar to CO's than could you say samething again? Also true you can be all of those albeit you will be a useless character in most of those things due to stats limitations.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
That is absolutely ridiculous.
It's all about the numbers bro.

Ha ha ha.

CO is poop by the way.


Save City of Heroes!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kangstor View Post
Funny because whatever I do I can't win in CO like how I did in CoH. True it has more variety but that is unrelated with combat it is about how class system works in both games if we could get any power with limitations similiar to CO's than could you say samething again? Also true you can be all of those albeit you will be a useless character in most of those things due to stats limitations.
Good observation about the CO class system (a separate thing from the combat system in my reckoning, too). The freeform architecture in CO is a lot of fun, but you can indeed make yourself a really gimped character! Fortunately, respec'ing is easy.

I also like how TSW does it, with a completely open "ability wheel" from which you can eventually gain every ability (over 500). Many of them have effects on other abilities, making it possible to achieve interesting and effective symbioses. You assemble "decks" of 14 abilities, half active, half passive. You can save a number of decks for easy recall, which can be done at any time (out of combat).

As far as combat systems go, I actually like CO's better than CoH's. It's a bit more dynamic on a number of levels, and you can set up the UI to simulate reticule targeting. It's not actually real-time collision/hit box detection, of course, but it still gives much of the same feel, which I prefer. I subbed for three months after The Dread Announcement, but I find the game still just fails to "grab" me, just as it did in beta and at launch. It's not a bad game by any means...it just doesn't quite work for me.


"And in this moment, I will not run.
It is my place to stand.
We few shall carry hope
Within our bloodied hands."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachnion View Post
CO is poop by the way.
CO definitely has a lot wrong with it...and I would much rather be playing CoH of course...but between CO and DCUO...I have to go with CO.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
Want to choose one attack, by all means the choice is there. If you want to be a clawed, ice throwing, sword swinging, arrow shooting, pistol blasting, demon summoning thing in CO you can be that also.
The problem is that melee attacks and ranged attacks in CO use different stats, and Melee Damage and Ranged Damage are separate "Roles". If you want to be a melee/ranged hybrid in CO, then you can, but you'll do neither one well, and have no survivability on top of it to boot (since Tank is yet another separate Role and requires still other stats to support that Role). You can also just split the difference and go with a Hybrid Role, but that Role does everything in half-measures by design.

Furthermore, the Roles shoehorn your playstyles into one of the Holy Trinity. Ranged or Melee Damage are both DPS, Tank is, of course, tanking, "Support" really means "healer", and "Control" means "don't bother."


 

Posted

The problems with CO are not the game mechanics. The game mechanics are fine, if a little uninspired.

The problem with CO is the attitude. The graphics, all the mission content, and it seems the entire world exists to parody the superhero genre. Almost every mission contains a winking joke about how lame everything is. "Ha, hah, isn't this lame? Everything you accomplish, it's so lame. Isn't it hilarious how lame you are?" It's like playing a pen-and-paper game with an annoying sarcastic hipster as your Game Master. The makers of CO are jaded and resentful of the superhero genre, and it shows.

An occasional joke at the genre's expense is okay. But CO is just overladen with them. If you're not going to take your genre seriously, pick a different one. (Maybe they did, with Star Trek Online. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet. Did they take space opera seriously?)

I have no idea how they thought that attitude was a good idea. It certainly doesn't encourage players. The players that kind of vicious sarcasm *does* attract...well, that's another problem.


...
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Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
The problem with CO is the attitude. The graphics, all the mission content, and it seems the entire world exists to parody the superhero genre. Almost every mission contains a winking joke about how lame everything is. "Ha, hah, isn't this lame? Everything you accomplish, it's so lame. Isn't it hilarious how lame you are?" It's like playing a pen-and-paper game with an annoying sarcastic hipster as your Game Master. The makers of CO are jaded and resentful of the superhero genre, and it shows.
I think you nailed it. From the art style to the content itself, they added so many 4th wall breaking elements (even the text ballons) that it felt all... slapstic... silly... just impossible for me to take anything seriously enough.

Quote:
(Maybe they did, with Star Trek Online. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet. Did they take space opera seriously?)
The bit I played STO, it felt serious enough.


 

Posted

I very much enjoyed CoH's combat system. There were a few things that did it for me:

1) Positioning engages an appropriate amount of twitch skills. You must align yourself for optimal use of cones, to force AI patterns of behavior and to limit the damage types you are exposed to or keep enemies in aura radius. This is made more interesting by the wide variety of positioning tools available; I find knockback in this game incredibly fun.

2) It let you be extremely overpowered. My force field defender has 90% damage mitigation in the vast majority of circumstances, with 97.5% against the game's most common damage type. He can give 90% mitigation to the whole team. Controllers can permanently lock down entire groups. Masterminds can summon an endless stream of minions who are individually reasonably strong. Blasters can nuke entire spawns to death in a single shot. In SWTOR, the calculated damage mitigation for a tank with the best end-game gear is something like 70%-ish vs. common damage types.

3) It has a difficulty slider. This is very important because of point 2, but is good in general. People have wildly varying skills, and being able to adjust the game so that it remains challenging to you is extremely important. Lacking this feature has killed my interest in many other games, including SWTOR. They fail to provide an appropriate challenge because while they have much better balancing than CoH, if your skill level is above or below average, you're stuck; you can't adjust the difficulty to make the game more fun.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
The problems with CO are not the game mechanics. The game mechanics are fine, if a little uninspired.

The problem with CO is the attitude. The graphics, all the mission content, and it seems the entire world exists to parody the superhero genre. Almost every mission contains a winking joke about how lame everything is. "Ha, hah, isn't this lame? Everything you accomplish, it's so lame. Isn't it hilarious how lame you are?" It's like playing a pen-and-paper game with an annoying sarcastic hipster as your Game Master. The makers of CO are jaded and resentful of the superhero genre, and it shows.

An occasional joke at the genre's expense is okay. But CO is just overladen with them. If you're not going to take your genre seriously, pick a different one. (Maybe they did, with Star Trek Online. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet. Did they take space opera seriously?)

I have no idea how they thought that attitude was a good idea. It certainly doesn't encourage players. The players that kind of vicious sarcasm *does* attract...well, that's another problem.
Yeah...this is one of the main reasons why I hate to see CoH shut down.

CO has good powers and good mechanics...and I really like the freeform system...but it is very hard to get immersed in a world of mockery.

I honestly do not think there is one "serious" mission in CO.


 

Posted

Seriously! CO is Freedom Force with a budget.


"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
The problems with CO are not the game mechanics. The game mechanics are fine, if a little uninspired.

The problem with CO is the attitude. The graphics, all the mission content, and it seems the entire world exists to parody the superhero genre. Almost every mission contains a winking joke about how lame everything is. "Ha, hah, isn't this lame? Everything you accomplish, it's so lame. Isn't it hilarious how lame you are?" It's like playing a pen-and-paper game with an annoying sarcastic hipster as your Game Master. The makers of CO are jaded and resentful of the superhero genre, and it shows.

An occasional joke at the genre's expense is okay. But CO is just overladen with them. If you're not going to take your genre seriously, pick a different one. (Maybe they did, with Star Trek Online. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet. Did they take space opera seriously?)

I have no idea how they thought that attitude was a good idea. It certainly doesn't encourage players. The players that kind of vicious sarcasm *does* attract...well, that's another problem.
It was "designed" during a marathon 60s Batman viewing while the "developers" were high.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight View Post
The problem is that melee attacks and ranged attacks in CO use different stats, and Melee Damage and Ranged Damage are separate "Roles". If you want to be a melee/ranged hybrid in CO, then you can, but you'll do neither one well, and have no survivability on top of it to boot (since Tank is yet another separate Role and requires still other stats to support that Role). You can also just split the difference and go with a Hybrid Role, but that Role does everything in half-measures by design.

Furthermore, the Roles shoehorn your playstyles into one of the Holy Trinity. Ranged or Melee Damage are both DPS, Tank is, of course, tanking, "Support" really means "healer", and "Control" means "don't bother."
My CO main is Ranged DPS. She draws aggro like bees to honey, however, so she winds up tanking by neccessity - and doesn't do too bad a job of it.

Tanks could use a buff, though. Some would consider same as it ever was, eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Nonexistent.
This is why I can't take Plan Z seriously.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Knight View Post
The problem is that melee attacks and ranged attacks in CO use different stats, and Melee Damage and Ranged Damage are separate "Roles". If you want to be a melee/ranged hybrid in CO, then you can, but you'll do neither one well, and have no survivability on top of it to boot (since Tank is yet another separate Role and requires still other stats to support that Role). You can also just split the difference and go with a Hybrid Role, but that Role does everything in half-measures by design.

Furthermore, the Roles shoehorn your playstyles into one of the Holy Trinity. Ranged or Melee Damage are both DPS, Tank is, of course, tanking, "Support" really means "healer", and "Control" means "don't bother."
hm never had any survival issues with sticking to hybrid role.

Then again I solo most of the time so I do not get into "I have to be this" role. But that is the point I'm making, in COH, you basically get set into an assigned role, and that's it/ In COH, you choose tank, you get melee and defense/resistance of some sort and ok damage. No changing that much. In CO, you can build your own role. But yeah, you cant build a "gimp" build there just as easily as you can builda gimped tank, controller, defender or other rolse specific toons. That comes down to the person and if that wasnt the case there would be no such thing as coming across a "poorly built" tank and those stories about squish tanks or wouldnt be any need for those postings about "how to bud this or that build."

Actually one of my most powerful solo toons there is actually one that I'm not sure if any one role fits. She takes hits like a tank, do melee damage very good, and even more powerful range damage, and can actually heal allies if need be, but like I said I do solo 99.9% of the time and actually only teamed once ever there (outside the three alert things) and pigeon holing my self in one role would have been my folly as I can easily just click another button depending on the situation, whether to mob is hovering above trying to rain down pain, or in my face. If it was set up like COX, if I was a raneg toon, I would be dead meat in most of those sitiations up close, if I was tank, the battle would go on longer because of being limited to one or two powers tryign to reach a flyer. And I dont think in COX there is an ability to choose that much variety of powers. You choose a fire melee, you stuck with fire only. You choose ice, you stuck with ice only, you choose arrows you stuck with only arrows. Very limited.

Although yea, with more freedom comes with more room to mess up but also more room to create a greater toon than that can be created if it was limited.


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon View Post
*snip*

This is why I can't take Plan Z seriously.
That is exactly why it will never exist, either.

"Plan Z" is being dreamt up by players who can't let go of this game.

Case in point? I went over to the Titan Network forums, where they have an entire area devoted to it.

There's design documents, enemy group ideas, powers, character customization... it all screams City of Heroes.

Now, I don't want to see CoH shut down either.... but.

I doubt a game from Plan Z will *ever* be made. Sure, you can brainstorm all you want.

You know what really shows your dedication though? Something concrete. Until then, it's all just words, really.

So yeah, when Plan Z exists in a playable form, I'll be there.


Save City of Heroes!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I think you nailed it. From the art style to the content itself, they added so many 4th wall breaking elements (even the text ballons) that it felt all... slapstic... silly... just impossible for me to take anything seriously enough.
Yeah but that is what appealing to me. Not taken seriously. I play these types of games for fun/leisure. If I wanted to be serious and feel like work, I'd just stay at work as I enjoy that too. Yt I dont mind serious games and can find them enjoyable as long as they are actually something to be taken serious. I'm sorry but hard to take serious a dude wearing tights a cape and helmet and can fly like Peter Pan and spout ya standard super hero stuff and or villian stuff that send you out on missions like "steal this book" or "burn those school books." and try to be dead serious about it to boot. Cant help but to laugh. It's like meeting a guy dressed in poorly made homemade blue/red tights wit ha cape at the super store that actually seriously thinks he is super man with super powers. Cant help but to laugh, even as serious as he take himself. Compared to CO which is like a guy that knows he just dressed as hero and willingly says so.


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
The problems with CO are not the game mechanics. The game mechanics are fine, if a little uninspired.

The problem with CO is the attitude. The graphics, all the mission content, and it seems the entire world exists to parody the superhero genre. Almost every mission contains a winking joke about how lame everything is. "Ha, hah, isn't this lame? Everything you accomplish, it's so lame. Isn't it hilarious how lame you are?" It's like playing a pen-and-paper game with an annoying sarcastic hipster as your Game Master. The makers of CO are jaded and resentful of the superhero genre, and it shows.

An occasional joke at the genre's expense is okay. But CO is just overladen with them. If you're not going to take your genre seriously, pick a different one. (Maybe they did, with Star Trek Online. I don't know, I haven't tried it yet. Did they take space opera seriously?)

I have no idea how they thought that attitude was a good idea. It certainly doesn't encourage players. The players that kind of vicious sarcasm *does* attract...well, that's another problem.
If I had to guess, they probably got that from WoW. There were quite a few missions in WoW that I considered degrading to my character. Picked up any Poo lately?


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