The war on supervillainy just got a lot harder.


blackjak

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Right. It wasn't the teamsters that put 18,000+ coworkers out of work by being stubborn greedy pancakes. But you keep telling yourself the bakers union are innocent victims. Everyone else sees them for what they really are.
This is a ludicrous assertion. Pure poppycock. When Hostess restructured, all the employees -- including both unions -- agreed to an across-the-board pay cut and a reduction in benefits. During that same time, the private equity firm who took over the business INCREASED the salaries of its executives AND saddled the company with debts from outside sources. This is the *exact* same sort of vulture capitalism you've heard about so much about over the past year regarding Romney and Bain Capital. These people destroy businesses for short-term profit, walking away multimillionaires and putting thousands of people out of work.

When those same predators came back to bleed the company some more while demanding further pay cuts and other concessions of the employees, that's when the workers found their breaking point and went on strike. How would you feel?

Stop defending these company-killers. They aren't "job creators," they're business destroyers, plain and simple.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

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Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Stop defending these company-killers. They aren't "job creators," they're business destroyers, plain and simple.
I haven't defended any company killers. The corporates and the bakers union are both responsible for screwing over the majority of the Hostess employees.

Unions are supposed to be about worker solidarity not stabbing your fellow coworkers in the back by being stubborn and getting everyone fired.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
I haven't defended any company killers. The corporates and the bakers union are both responsible for screwing over the majority of the Hostess employees.

Unions are supposed to be about worker solidarity not stabbing your fellow coworkers in the back by being stubborn and getting everyone fired.
qft. +1


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

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Originally Posted by Torment And Agony View Post
It's a sad thing when the people side with the corporation which couldn't give a crap about you, and turn their backs on their fellow man.
This is always a spurious argument. Sometimes our 'fellow man' is a scumbag. Never forget this. Every situation has its own merits.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven View Post
lmao


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
I haven't defended any company killers. The corporates and the bakers union are both responsible for screwing over the majority of the Hostess employees.

Unions are supposed to be about worker solidarity not stabbing your fellow coworkers in the back by being stubborn and getting everyone fired.
How much are you supposed to take? When you negotiate in good faith, give up money and benefits and get screwed over, why would you trust the guys making millions off of your hard work when they ask you to do it again?

No, the people to blame here are the guys at the top. Hostess didn't fail because the workers refused to end up like Wal-Mart employees, it failed because the executives legally looted millions of dollars by abusing a system created by their rich friends in DC.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
How much are you supposed to take? When you negotiate in good faith, give up money and benefits and get screwed over, why would you trust the guys making millions off of your hard work when they ask you to do it again?

No, the people to blame here are the guys at the top. Hostess didn't fail because the workers refused to end up like Wal-Mart employees, it failed because the executives legally looted millions of dollars by abusing a system created by their rich friends in DC.
This is true but no matter how much you try to get the working man to see this he is blinded by the heavy dose of anti-citizen/worker propaganda he is subjected too by corporate media.

I don't understand how anyone can really support execs getting raises while asking workers that do the actual work to take even more cuts in salaries that don't keep up with inflation etc...

I do understand how it got this way as I watched people over the past two decades turn on each other while the execs changed the laws looted the pensions, cut salaries, benefits and and now your jobs in favor of a never ending escalation of exec salaries and corporate profit.

WAI.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
How much are you supposed to take? When you negotiate in good faith, give up money and benefits and get screwed over, why would you trust the guys making millions off of your hard work when they ask you to do it again?

No, the people to blame here are the guys at the top. Hostess didn't fail because the workers refused to end up like Wal-Mart employees, it failed because the executives legally looted millions of dollars by abusing a system created by their rich friends in DC.
Why wont the "common" man/woman make friends and or vote his/her "common" man into positions in DC instead of voting and putting corporate rich friends into office year after year election after election?

But in the end as long as we are busy fighting each other, the corporate and their friends in DC have not a single thing to worry about and like friends do, naturally help out their friends.


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
Why wont the "common" man/woman make friends and or vote his/her "common" man into positions in DC instead of voting and putting corporate rich friends into office year after year election after election?

But in the end as long as we are busy fighting each other, the corporate and their friends in DC have not a single thing to worry about and like friends do, naturally help out their friends.
Because:
#1: Republicans underestimate the average person's intelligence.
#2: Democrats overestimate the average person's intelligence.
#3: No one else counts.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjak View Post
Because:
#1: Republicans underestimate the average person's intelligence.
#2: Democrats overestimate the average person's intelligence.
#3: No one else counts.
No. It's just like George Carlin said.

Think of how stupid the average person is and then realize that half of them are stupider than that.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
How much are you supposed to take? When you negotiate in good faith, give up money and benefits and get screwed over, why would you trust the guys making millions off of your hard work when they ask you to do it again?

No, the people to blame here are the guys at the top. Hostess didn't fail because the workers refused to end up like Wal-Mart employees, it failed because the executives legally looted millions of dollars by abusing a system created by their rich friends in DC.
They didn't negotiate in good faith. They, the bakers union, ignored the negotiations all summer according to the Teamsters and then after the package was presented, a package that the rest of the unions were involved with, understood where management was coming from and approved, a package that gave the unions seats on the board and 25% ownership, chose to strike and force the company to close.

Some people would rather watch the world burn.


Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components

Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
Why wont the "common" man/woman make friends and or vote his/her "common" man into positions in DC instead of voting and putting corporate rich friends into office year after year election after election?

But in the end as long as we are busy fighting each other, the corporate and their friends in DC have not a single thing to worry about and like friends do, naturally help out their friends.
Because the Common Man simply doesn't have the monetary resources to get into any position of actual power. Look at the Presidential Election. Between Romney and Obama, they spent, what? over a billion dollars (not sure, heard that number thrown around a bit). Granted, that is the Presidential race rather than a Senate/House seat.

However, even if you manage to get into the Senate/House, you are only one out of 100 or close to 500(? not sure how many are in the House) people. People that tend to have a lot more money and a lot of wealthy backers. Ideals don't tend to last too long in that place before you simply give up or are continually shouted down.



 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Because the Common Man simply doesn't have the monetary resources to get into any position of actual power. Look at the Presidential Election. Between Romney and Obama, they spent, what? over a billion dollars (not sure, heard that number thrown around a bit). Granted, that is the Presidential race rather than a Senate/House seat.

However, even if you manage to get into the Senate/House, you are only one out of 100 or close to 500(? not sure how many are in the House) people. People that tend to have a lot more money and a lot of wealthy backers. Ideals don't tend to last too long in that place before you simply give up or are continually shouted down.
yeah. If the common person is not willing to band together and use their power on the local level then of course the ones with the money is going to continue to rule. I mean how do you think those people got rich anyways? 90% are not selling goods that only rick people buy. Usually it's stuff that common people buy, like Walmart and that family makes billions of those stores. From the common people. We have the money it just goes to other things instead of actually giving financial backing to people who can change things. We just vote for who ever the rich guy votes for and then wonder why they look out for their friend's buisness? Human nature it seems to look after ya friends. The common people have more power than they are lead to believe but seems so many believe that they are powerless that they just vote for the choices that what ever the rich people say we can choose from, Democrat or Republican.


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
They didn't negotiate in good faith. They, the bakers union, ignored the negotiations all summer according to the Teamsters and then after the package was presented, a package that the rest of the unions were involved with, understood where management was coming from and approved, a package that gave the unions seats on the board and 25% ownership, chose to strike and force the company to close.

Some people would rather watch the world burn.
Baker's union spin doctor's arriving in thread to deny the facts in 3... 2... 1...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post

Some people would rather watch the world burn.
Hey I had nothing to do with the loss of Twinkies or them jobs this time, I swear!


-Female Player-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks."
I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy View Post
Hey I had nothing to do with the loss of Twinkies or them jobs this time, I swear!
Oh you dirty little liar! We all know you buy your tasty pastry sweets from a local independant mom and pop bakery because of your rabid hatred of unions and corporations. You damn near knocked me down last week when I was shopping at the same bakery for the same reasons.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
No, the people to blame here are the guys at the top. Hostess didn't fail because the workers refused to end up like Wal-Mart employees, it failed because the executives legally looted millions of dollars by abusing a system created by their rich friends in DC.
That may have been why they were ultimately going to fail, but it seems the strike and thus those directly behind it is directly responsible for it failing now.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

I always wanted to make an Architect arc where the player thwarts Lord Recluse by giving him Hostess fruit pies. Or maybe Nemesis. Of course, no one under age 30 would get it, maybe even older.


 

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The evil private equity firm, Ripplewood Holdings, was founded by Timothy C. Collins, a major Democratic donor. Collins was looking to invest in troubled companies with union workers. Collins apparently thought if he could work with the unions to turn around a business as iconic as Hostess it could be a model for saving other businesses. Instead he failed to save Hostess and Ripplewood is expected to lose most of the $130 million they invested in Hostess. Ripplewood's lenders aren't expected to do any better. If these are "vulture capitalists" they aren't very good at it.

Management at Hostess was incompetent. They gave themselves huge pay raises at a time when they were asking workers to take a pay cut. They failed to adapt to the changing marketplace. They made a lot of mistakes.

At the same time the baker's union did things that made it hard to lower costs or improve efficiency. For example, the union required bread and cakes to be delivered by different people even when they were going to the same place. This was not a safety issue. Contrary to a Cyberpunk 2020 campaign I once played in Wonder Bread and Twinkies do not combine to form a highly volatile explosive compound capable of leveling a city block. This was a greed issue. Double the delivery men means double the dues paying union members.

In the last 10 years the baker's union has lost over 30,000 members as local after local has voted to decertify the union. Just to be clear, that means that a majority of union members if those locals voted to leave the union. Not surprising given that over 500 complaints have been filed against the union over their duty of fair representation. These are not the strong jawed champions of workers' rights that some people seem to think they are.

In short, there's a lot of blame to go around. Management was incompetent and did a lot of bad things but the union wasn't helping the situation either.


"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." -- Dinobot

 

Posted

Yeah, I'm not impressed. You don't allow your executives to raise their pay while decreasing the pay of others. That makes the unions recalcitrant, and these guys have a history of breaking heads.

Edit to add this isn't a political thing, this is a business malfeasance issue. Republicans and Democrats both engage in this because A) it's legal and B) the other guy will do it if you don't, which means you'll go out of business.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Yes, you don't give yourself a raise while asking other people to take a pay cut. You also don't force a struggling company to retain redundant workers and engage in deliberate inefficiencies that drive up business costs just to line union pockets.


"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." -- Dinobot

 

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Originally Posted by Wayfarer View Post
Yes, you don't give yourself a raise while asking other people to take a pay cut. You also don't force a struggling company to retain redundant workers and engage in deliberate inefficiencies that drive up business costs just to line union pockets.
As I said earlier, you have to lead by example. Cut the salary of your employees and then give yourself a pay raise? That's idiotic. It creates a hostile relationship, so the next time you need to do something to save the company, the workers are just going to assume you're lying. Even the UAW and Teacher's union has seen the light in recent years, but only in areas where they've been treated fairly. This combative "us v. them" mentality is killing companies.

Read this story about the guy who founded Costco. The recently retired Sinegal only takes $350,000 in salary despite running a hugely successful multi-billion-dollar business. He bumped that up to $629,000 the year he retired. Costco has the best employee retention rate in the business and also gives out the best benefits. While still making money. (Suck on THAT Papa John and Applebees.)

And if you want to get political, Papa John and the Applebees guys are Republican, while Sinegal is a Democrat. Treats people fairly and makes truckloads of money. Who'd'a thunk it?


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

I didn't particularly want to get political but other people already had in this thread so I thought it was worth mentioning. Just like it's probably worth mentioning that Richard Gephardt was involved in Ripplewood coming in to Hostess and as part of that arrangement Gephardt's son was given a seat on the board of directors making $100,000.

I've already said, and I'll say it again, that the executives shouldn't have given themselves raises. However, things like the separate deliverymen for bread and cakes was in place long before Ripplewood got involved.

People like to ignore the fact that there's money and power in leading a union. Union leadership are just as drive by greed as everyone else. Hell, why do you think organized crime has taken such an interest in unions? Because they're worried about worker's rights?


"Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly, the ill deeds along with the good and let me be judged accordingly. The rest is silence." -- Dinobot