The war on supervillainy just got a lot harder.
By
blackjak,
Posted on: 2012-11-16 08:43 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Fail.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Or the unions abused whatever power they had, just like the auto workers unions. Every car made by the big three had something like $2500 of extra costs due to the unions. This made them a failing proposition on the world market.
We get that you support the workers in this case. But the rest of us don't actually know who is to blame. |
Yes, it does cost about $2500 in labor costs to build a car from start to finish with union labor, paid better at higher rates with good pensions.
But the differential between, say, a Ford vehicle with UAW workers and a Toyota vehicle with non UAW workers?
More like $600.
That $2500 figure is a scary lie used by people who don't like unions.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
That $2500 figure is a scary lie used by people who don't like unions.
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The reasons Unions are disliked are the same reasons Management is disliked. Disreputable scumbags get into leadership positions and abuse their power/authority for their own personal gain at the expense of other people.
Both Unions and Management can be great when the right people are working together for the betterment of all instead of looking out for themselves and screw anyone else.
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The thing is, I don't have to lie about management to make them look bad. Simple arithmetic does that.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The reasons Unions are disliked are the same reasons Management is disliked. Disreputable scumbags get into leadership positions and abuse their power/authority for their own personal gain at the expense of other people.
Both Unions and Management can be great when the right people are working together for the betterment of all instead of looking out for themselves and screw anyone else. |
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/13/498...#storylink=cpy
That 8% pay cut that the execs were asking the workers to take? Let's use $5000 as a nice, round, most likely high-end estimate for that 8% pay cut.
The executive pay raises - not the pay, just the raises - mentioned in that press release alone covers that overestimated pay cut for just about 500 workers.
This is not a 'both sides are just as bad' story.
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The victim here is the employee who didn't belong to the baker's union or who did and voted against the strike action and is now out of a job.|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Still blaming the victim, I see. This particular ship would not have been in trouble in the first place if the ones in charge actually treated their workers fairly to begin with.
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The choice still boiled down to;
A) Quit yourself because you didn't like the new union contract the bankruptcy judge put into effect or;
B) Remain on strike even though the owners stated that if it wasn't resolved by Thursday evening, the company goes out of business and everyone is out of a job.
In either case you, a member of the baker's union who was for the strike will be out of a job but why should only you suffer for the holidays so you choose B.
They had the option to keep the company open, to keep everyone employed but they, the baker's union, chose to put everyone on the streets.
So the victims here were those who weren't in the baker's union but in one of the unions that agreed to the concessions or were in the baker's union but didn't vote to strike. Those are the people I feel sympathy towards.
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I believe now that the Mayans foretold the the date the last twinkie is eaten.
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Yes actually it is. The Baker's Union is not the innocent victims you want to believe they are. They had the power to keep everyone employed but they chose to screw everyone over. No amount of spin doctoring can change that.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
This is not a 'both sides are just as bad' story.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
The victim here is the employee who didn't belong to the baker's union or who did and voted against the strike action and is now out of a job.
The choice still boiled down to; A) Quit yourself because you didn't like the new union contract the bankruptcy judge put into effect or; B) Remain on strike even though the owners stated that if it wasn't resolved by Thursday evening, the company goes out of business and everyone is out of a job. In either case you, a member of the baker's union who was for the strike will be out of a job but why should only you suffer for the holidays so you choose B. They had the option to keep the company open, to keep everyone employed but they, the baker's union, chose to put everyone on the streets. So the victims here were those who weren't in the baker's union but in one of the unions that agreed to the concessions or were in the baker's union but didn't vote to strike. Those are the people I feel sympathy towards. |
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I can just hear a giant, collective Vader-esque "NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!" from CO & WA.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
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http://dailynewsfinder.com/2012/11/1...-brands-story/|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yes actually it is. The Baker's Union is not the innocent victims you want to believe they are. They had the power to keep everyone employed but they chose to screw everyone over. No amount of spin doctoring can change that.
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From the conclusion:
"In recent days a variety of pundits and news sources have laid the blame for Hostesss demise squarely at the feet of unions and their contracts. But a close examination reveals that were the workers to agree to work for free the company would probably not have survived; all the strike did was hasten the inevitable."
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Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
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And, from the same article:
"The Teamsters remain stuck in a time warp, unwilling to sufficiently adapt in a competitive marketplace."
Selective quotes can work both ways.
And the conclusion you quoted was written by some nobody who was summarizing and excerpting other articles. A better summary, from CNNMoney/Fortune.com said:
"But in truth there are no black hats or white knights in this tale. Its about shades of gray, where obstinacy, miscalculation, and lousy luck connived to create corporate catastrophe. Almost none of the parties involved would speak on the record. Still, its clear from court documents and background interviews with a range of sources that practically nobody involved can shoot straight: The Teamsters remain stuck in a time warp, unwilling to sufficiently adapt in a competitive marketplace. The PE firm failed to turn Hostess around after taking it over. The hedgies cant see beyond their internal rates of return. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."
Sounds like there's plenty of blame for all parties involved.
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The following seem relevant/high enough in troll per minute concentration to be worth sharing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl-ZeBei-Jo - Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoSn6QS90Y4 - Part II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBMzHCalQpE
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Both sides are at fault.
That said, I will miss my occaissional Twinkie...wait...wait...are Zingers safe?!
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Bingo. The bakers union is at least just as guilty as everyone else.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
And, from the same article:
"The Teamsters remain stuck in a time warp, unwilling to sufficiently adapt in a competitive marketplace." Selective quotes can work both ways. And the conclusion you quoted was written by some nobody who was summarizing and excerpting other articles. A better summary, from CNNMoney/Fortune.com said: "But in truth there are no black hats or white knights in this tale. Its about shades of gray, where obstinacy, miscalculation, and lousy luck connived to create corporate catastrophe. Almost none of the parties involved would speak on the record. Still, its clear from court documents and background interviews with a range of sources that practically nobody involved can shoot straight: The Teamsters remain stuck in a time warp, unwilling to sufficiently adapt in a competitive marketplace. The PE firm failed to turn Hostess around after taking it over. The hedgies cant see beyond their internal rates of return. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera." Sounds like there's plenty of blame for all parties involved. |
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Nope. Zingers are made by Dolly Madison which in turn was owned by Hostess.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Both sides are at fault.
That said, I will miss my occaissional Twinkie...wait...wait...are Zingers safe?! |
Maybe there is fault to be had on both sides, but I think management deserves the lion's share. The average baker's salary at Hostess was $36,300, which works out to $17.45 an hour.
But when the CEO gives himself a raise from $750,000 to $2,250,000 and other executives got pay increases of 100% while simultaneously cutting pay by 8% and benefits by 32% during the bankruptcy, it's kind of hard to blame the company's financial woes on the guy making the bread. If everyone needs to take a pay cut to keep the company alive, fine. But don't tell people they have to take a cut while you give yourself millions of dollars.
I suspect this is a classic case of vulture capitalism, where a company is taken over by some investment firm and then broken up a couple years later while the guys at the top make millions. I would've been pissed off, too.
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Yes but $1.5 million divided by 18,000 is only around 0.25% of the average baker's salary. If you get the average rank and file salary by 5% you reduce labor costs by $30 million. Cuts had to be made across the board for it to amount to something. Sure, senior management needed to join in but the company was in debt and couldn't pay off the loans they got after the previous bankruptcy. Yes the loans came from private equity groups, since banks weren't going to provide them, and they aren't in the business to not make money on their investment, so they are rather insistent about being paid back.
As it stands it looks as if it the brand will be bought by a Mexican bakery giant and Twinkie the Kid will grow a big mustache like the Frito Bandito (sorry not racist, just old, it was something I remember fondly from my elementary school days).
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LOL! Why are you so eager to blame the union for this? Are you in love with the execs? Do you envy their lifestyle and don't care who you have to step on in order to get it? Did you vote for Romney and now you're sore because he's lost? Seriously, I don't know.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Yes but $1.5 million divided by 18,000 is only around 0.25% of the average baker's salary. If you get the average rank and file salary by 5% you reduce labor costs by $30 million. Cuts had to be made across the board for it to amount to something. Sure, senior management needed to join in but the company was in debt and couldn't pay off the loans they got after the previous bankruptcy. Yes the loans came from private equity groups, since banks weren't going to provide them, and they aren't in the business to not make money on their investment, so they are rather insistent about being paid back.
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| As it stands it looks as if it the brand will be bought by a Mexican bakery giant and Twinkie the Kid will grow a big mustache like the Frito Bandito (sorry not racist, just old, it was something I remember fondly from my elementary school days). |
More food for thought, for some people hellbent on blaming the little guy:
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
More food for thought, for some people hellbent on blaming the little guy:
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Hey it's not fair to the CEO and other executives if they reported that. How else were they suppose to pay for their island. I mean their next door neighbor has an island, and the guy across the street has two, why cant they have one? With inflation, maintaining a bunch of houses and cars and private school is expensive. I mean they cant be expected to pay for that stuff and not let people go. No one ever thinks about the CEO and the hard work they has to put in to earn the right to give himself 300% raise and cut other people's pay to cover the costs. The countless hours spent counting money, the hours deciding on which brand of personal jet to buy, the hard work whether to put a few million in this investment or that investment. It's hard work! No love for CEOs.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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You know, after seeing some of the comments made by members of the baker's union on picket lines saying things like, "Shut it down, we'll get a better deal from the new owners!" I actually find myself hoping that whoever buys the rights to manufacture the Hostess products, takes it and incorporates those products into their own pre-existing manufacturing facilities even if it means everything gets moved to Mexico.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
As it stands it looks as if it the brand will be bought by a Mexican bakery giant and Twinkie the Kid will grow a big mustache like the Frito Bandito (sorry not racist, just old, it was something I remember fondly from my elementary school days).
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Well...Mexican Coca-cola has real sugar as opposed to that high fructose corn syrup, so maybe not a bad thing if it moves to Mexican production facilities.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You know, after seeing some of the comments made by members of the baker's union on picket lines saying things like, "Shut it down, we'll get a better deal from the new owners!" I actually find myself hoping that whoever buys the rights to manufacture the Hostess products, takes it and incorporates those products into their own pre-existing manufacturing facilities even if it means everything gets moved to Mexico.
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taste better too. In Europe they use real sugar there too. Sodas here in the US of corn syrup land taste like crap to me.
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Originally Posted by Dark One
Well...Mexican Coca-cola has real sugar as opposed to that high fructose corn syrup, so maybe not a bad thing if it moves to Mexican production facilities.
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-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
And yet, maybe a slim bit of hope remains.
http://news.yahoo.com/hostess-liquid...9--sector.html
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I'd say, with Hostess, there's enough blame to go around.
With the string of execs for their idiotic, avaricious plundering of the company.
With at least one of the unions involved, who'd rather crash the company and put everyone out of work than try to come to terms (some of which included a 25% stake in the company and a hundred million in secured debt).
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