Posi Confirms: COH Largest and Most Active MMO Ever Shut Down

You forgot the Apple enthusiast crowd...

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Orange you glad I didn't mention bananas?

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Yea I've seen some strange behavior exhibited by those crowds too. People getting ravingmad because the pro-game season got shortened, people angry that a tv show got canceled or a character killed off (smh).

I think people get attached to things alittle too deep especially in things they have no control over while taking for granted the things they do have ownership and control over. I dont get the logic.

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

Any offer would be more than the $0 or less it made by collecting dust somewhere.

Yeah, 80 million would be way more than City was worth in of itself.

I did wonder in the past though if some of the tech behind the game in of itself may have had more value than the IP-- super sidekicking, power customization, AE, etc. Even those things, unique as they may be, I don't see making the City franchise worth 80 million.

Fact is: with 80 million you can do your own AAA game no need to buy someone else game. Rumor is that the budget of developing DCUO was 50 million and it is considered a very large one

I'm still of the belief that they're using the closing of CoH/Paragon as a tax write-off. I also believe they're greatly overvaluing it in said write-off to get as much money as they can for it. If this is true, then it IS bringing them money, just in an indirect way. Anyone wanting to buy it would have to match the higher of either the excessive estimate they've set on it, or the real cost of CoH/Paragon PLUS the amount they'd have to pay in taxes on the sale profit PLUS the amount they stood to save on taxes by closing the game.

I kind of wonder what would happen if NC Soft's taxes got audited and they had to prove CoH/Paragon's real value, or wind up losing any tax write-off they're getting this way. I'd find it funny if the IRS ripped a chunk out of their *** for this.

I fixed your statement for you.

I fixed your statement for you.

This a powerful paragraph and I agree completely. To truthfully answer the question of why the best MMO on the planet is biting the dust, it is my firm belief is you have to go to a place where many people do not want to visit. It means, to some extent, speaking ill of the dead. As a seven and a half year near daily player of CoH, I'm very reluctant to go there myself.

But if you are really interested in a post mortem for CoH you have to examine more than the day when the final nail was pounded into the coffin. You have to enter a world where Paragon Studios isn't divine, NCSoft isn't the devil, and our community is a mixed bag of the good, the bad and the ugly (that's where you will find me ). IMHO, and I'll put this as delicately as I can, you have to talk about things like... and this is just three things off the top of my head: (a) the lack of CoH marketing, (b) that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to put resources into secret projects (which certainly gives the impression if not the reality that somebody "bet the studio and lost") and (c) that slowly but surely people were becoming disinterested (even disenfranchised!) with the product.

I'm pretty sure that most of the die hard people who are left that make up the core of support associated with this game don't want to "go there". I understand that finding a scapegoat to blame everything on is easier... that doesn't make it right. And I admire the courage that people have expressing this often unpopular opinion.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Assuming they wanted to sell in the first place.

So why is NCSoft the devil? And not other buisnesses? I dont see this as a person to person victim comparision. More of a buisness decision where there are no victims. So why is NCSoft the devil and anyone who doesnt say that NCSoft is the devil basicallly is saying that someone with a short skirt deserved what came to them? I dont think it's black and white like that. I dont think NCSOft is the devil nor do I think that woman wearing a short skirt deserve to be assaulted. With that compararison it kind of attempt to put anyone that agree that NCSoft is the devil in a box of supporters of assualt against people that wear short skirts and kind of trivialize the matter of assault, a serious crime. Compared to closing down a game, normal buisness decision that is at worst, bad customer service.
This is what I been talking about. Just because a person dont jump on the "hate COX" bandwagon, they are always something negative. Now we support violence against short skirt wearers too. What's next? We support Al Queda if we dont join the hate and smear NCSOft campaign?


With the fault thing, well many have been holding COX up as the perfect infallible MMO for a while now. What comparision was expected? It seems like many think that any game compared to COX is hopelessly flawed. A game sucks if it's not like COX. If it's not like COX and the way COX does it, then that game is flawed and etc. It would only be natural after a while that it may be compared to perfection if people have held COX up as if it's was the absolute perfect game with no faults or any fault that it did have was ver minor and should always be over looked while other game faults are absolute deal breakers.

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

Notice I did not put a person into the analogy I gave, because comparing that aspect would be absurd.
Notice also that "NCSoft is the devil" is in quotes.

Take away all of those misfires against what I said and you can see the truth in it.
People claim they're being bold and brave and smarter for saying that the reasons CoH were shut down was because it wasn't perfect...
And that is intelligent arguments against the fact that NCSoft shut a profitable game down very suddenly?

I'm really not gonna get pulled into anything further... I said what I said and I stand by it. You either get it or you don't.

So, you're arguing against a ridiculous extreme that CoH was perfect (that I've not seen said)... Good luck and bravo for that, hehe.
This is continued ridiculousness.
NCSoft shut down a game that we loved, that was earning a profit and that could have continued.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

That's good. Because that a completely stupid comparison. People have formed their opinion of NCSoft based on what the company did to people. Now, if that woman in the short skirt walked up to me and punched me in the nose, yeah, then she would deserve to be assaulted. Except it would be called self-defense.

Well could it continued? Sure but apparently the ones with the power to decide didnt think so.

But I do not see how calling NCSoft the devil is intelligent. Well you have your mind made up that NCSoft is evil incarnate and dont look like there is anyway to change that. Just as looks like NCSoft made up their mind to shutdown a game, that they probably have reason to in their eyes. To them it probably was llogical to keep the game going and havent heard a good reason to change their mind assuming if thier mind could be changed but when you put a closed mind, against another closed mind, nothing is goign to change and thus COX will still fall. Cant expect the other side to see your view if ya not willing to attempt to see the other side view.

And just as you said that you said what you said and stand by it, I dont see why NCSoft is so evil for doing the same thing basically you doing. They made a decision and they stand by it. Yet you still argue the point against it but your words are suppose to be final because...

But I never said COX was perfect just stating what I seen said about COX compared to other games. You already said that COX is not perfect and I said COX is not perfect so how is that arguing against your point?

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

Seriously just stop, lol... I never once said they are evil. Never mind all that you go on about it in there.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Hmm I think I only mentioned you said it was evil in about one or two statements of post both a piece yet it seems that is all you focused on out of everything I said. If you dont want focus on it, stop calling NCSoft the devil or compared to it and then assigning the thought process to anyone that dont agree to that statement as saying that they also agree that someone wearing a short skirt deserves to be assaulted. If you think they are the devil that is fine, but that doesnt mean that people who just so happen to think NCSoft is the devil, which in many cultures known as ultimate evil, the creator of evil, the icon of evil, the evil of evil, doesnt mean they think like thought you assigned to them. Why not just leave it as you think NCSoft is the devil? Why have to assigned that anyone that just so happen to agree with that statement you believe is people who think someone deserves to be assaulted in a way that is insinuated as being *****?


True, you never said they was evil. You just said...Citing any other reasons why NCSoft is not "the devil" is akin to saying that CoH's skirt was cut too high and it shouldn't have wandered into the neighborhood it did if it didn't want to get attacked."

If you were not calling them the devil, then what exactly were you trying to insinuate?

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

Thank you for asking, because you clearly totally missed the point, intent and meaning (which is a two way thing, granted).

People offered their critique of CoH, citing it as brave/bold reasons why CoH may have deserved to be shut down and counters against why NCSoft was not the devil.

What I replied with was an attempt to show that citing these reasons (beyond not being bold or brave at all, I mean, c'mon, heehee), is reversing blame.
The game wasn't shut down because they did this or that wrong (that we know of... it may have been, as someone else has mentioned earlier, something personal... we have no real idea about those particulars... regardless), the game was shut down because NCSoft realigned their focus. This awesome game, this active community and all the reasons why everyone was here was simply collateral damage to whatever reasons they had.
All of this could have continued, under another financial umbrella if need be.
Whether or not it is "right or wrong" has no bearing on whether or not we dislike it.
There's no reason that brings us betterment for its sudden, unexpected closure. And that's fine.
Trying to come up with supposed justifications for this is simply assigning blame to the product (sometimes even the community) instead of simply leaving the blame where the truth points it to.

It's fine. NCSoft is clearly willing to take the blame. So, no need to defend their decision. They decided to axe it, axe the Paragon Studio employees and destroy this online community. Nothing evil about it, but that doesn't make it a good thing and that doesn't mean that anyone has to like it.

So, again, all I did was reflect back what the person I quoted had said.
They were basically comparing the game to perfection and pointing out that it didn't match up, therefore... we can all see the reason within NCSoft's decision to end all of this.

Eh... not so much.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

ok

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Is the community destroyed? I thought the whole point of the Titan stuff was to maintain the community? It can't be both ways..the community can't be destroyed AND thriving in the face of adversity.

The whole "NCSoft is murdering/destroying the community" stuff baffles me. How can the community be destroyed if it is supposedly this strong machine of fight etc etc? Granted yes the community is not as big as it was 2 months ago...is that what you mean by destroyed? I mean the game has seen much larger losses in the community in the past but yet still thrived...right? I'm not being snarky I just don't get the two differing points that I see thrown around - the community is destroyed and the community is strong and resilient etc...

Me personally?? I don't think NCSoft destroyed the community... I'm not a big "community" person but I am speaking about MY community of friends.. we still go on as a community. All you are doing is giving NCSoft power by saying you LET them destroy the community. Then again I don't see NCSoft as destroying the game either...they ended it...but destroyed it?? Nah CoH will always be the best MMO in my opinion and I refuse to let NCSoft's decision destroy the game for me.

Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

Shouldnt a community be able to continue on regardless of the media that it is formed on if it's an actual community? If it is truely a community, one that was willing formed on something temporary in the first place, wasnt it based on a sand foundation and while the game may end what is stopping the community from going on? If NCSoft can destroy a community just with a swipe of a pen, was it wise to build a community on the basis of something that could end at any moment under a company that have been known to end games in the first place? What is stopping people here from keeping in contact with each other if they wish and why do they need a game to form a community when if it is truely friendship or sense of community, there is ways to do that. Even if in RL a friend moves away, it doesnt mean the move is destroying the friendship.

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

I bet he was just insinuating that NCSoft's management doesn't stand by their developers, that they kill MMOs left and right, and that they don't communicate often or very well with their customers, or even attempt to understand their multinational demographics very well, for that matter.

Let's point the finger where it belongs. This is a conversation about competence, communication, confidence, loyalty, betrayal, and perhaps greed, not the devil. People are perfectly capable of stabbing each other in the back with no help from otherworldly monsters. And bringing the term 'evil' into it is just a way to deflect and distract discussion from the true culprit: NCSoft's management.

I was born and raised to stand by those who stand by me. Trust and loyalty are sacred. What NCSoft did to Paragon Studios and their fans cannot be glossed over by me, and many others here. At the end of the day on November 30, my loyalty will stand with those who stood by me, those at Paragon Studios and the friendships I forged here.

You cannot convince those of us with this principle, this viewpoint, to examine NCSoft in the spirit of making excuses for them. All of the charts and graphs and quarterly reports cannot explain away their handling of Paragon Studios, one of the finest dev teams ever to grace the industry by the opinions of many, many of their fans.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get back to my week-long Champions Online test drive. The CoX channel there has almost a thousand members, and the Cape Radio channel is approaching a hundred members already. After that, it'll be back to City of Heroes for the remainder of November, but I do have to admit, it's been very refreshing to surround myself the past few nights with a community of CoX refugees who are actually focusing on the positive and not filling the air with the stench of death. In COH's final few weeks, it's likely that I'll spend a lot less time on these forums, and a lot more time in COH with my friends in the Virtue community.

ok.
This is a conversation about competence, communication, confidence, loyalty, betrayal, and perhaps greed.

Out of curiosity then, what would have been the proper way to end this? If you had to shut down this game, in what manner woud you or anyone that is angry about the handling would have handled it?
Would you made the announcement earlier, say in May or June instead and let the Dev team know that come Aug 31st they all were getting canned?
I think they communicated their reason for it, realignment, it's not their worry or problem if people choose to not to believe it. But would you go in more depth to the customer about the actual realignment process?

Either way, even if they handed out gold bars and anything short of not closing the game even if it was no longer thier focus or if it got to the point where it sank the entire company, I think the reaction of betrayal and lack of loyalty, and destruction of confidence would be the same. They could of told us the plan to shut down a year ago and all those things still would have went out the window and we still would be in the same boat now.

On the same token, all that stuff is two ways. Sure there was loyalty with giving money to them each month, but was there much loyalty with the mindest of not attempting to get more people to join or spending even more money even when way back the statement about slipping cash flow in this game came to light? Doesnt seem to be much consturctive communication comeing from the player side of the house especially after the announcement, just protest, anger and such. Communication goes both ways. The more angry and demanding it comes off as probably the more they will just ignore it and not address anything especially if the air of communication seems to be just to get an answer to feed the anger and run with it. I dont think anything they would say would appease many. They could lay out the entire decision process and many will call it BS just like when they said they was doing it, a legit reason in a buisness, for realignment purpose. So in what way should they have handled it if the other side doesnt seem ready to listen to anything but just want the party they claim to want answers from and to communicate with to fail?

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!