Posi Confirms: COH Largest and Most Active MMO Ever Shut Down
By
Adar_ICT,
Posted on: 2012-10-29 18:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I did not mean actually players, at least not any that is familiar with the game. I meant publishers. Despite doing well CoH never reached huge numbers and it ended up canceling. Heck, I think you may be able to walk to some publishers with a finished CoH2 and they may say "ok but that name got to change."|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
On this point, I don't think you'll find many supporters
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But I do still think players that were never familiar with the game, players that only heard about it during it's cancelation coverage, are unlikely to remember anything other than, well... "it was that canceled MMO."
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| I also think people here are underestimating the value of the IP. |
My point is: I don't think the IP is as strong. I don't think the comic books did too well either, so that may be a point proving this.
I'm not saying it has to be a strong IP to be a successful and loved game, heck I loved the hell out of it, but independent of the game I don't feel the IP packed much punch.
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| I hold a pretty different suspicion than most of you (maybe all of you), regarding the likelihood that we'll see a COH 2 anytime [relatively] soon. |
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I might be wrong|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I don't hold my breath for many reasons. The only way a game called "City of Heroes 2" will happen is if NCSoft develops it themselves. It CAN happen. The SaveCOH may have given them the idea there is potential in there for a new game, and a game done by them, their way, may be marketable in Asia. But it would hold zero resemblance to what we play today, not without the same lead team.
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but im like 95% positive that when people say CoH2 they're simply talking about a successor to it, especially post sunset.
95%
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That is what I'm refering to when I say COH2.
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Originally Posted by Vyver
I might be wrong
but im like 95% positive that when people say CoH2 they're simply talking about a successor to it, especially post sunset. 95% |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard.  Never change, E_L! |
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I guess, but the post I replied to was very specific about the strength of the IP so I am guessing he was talking about a true IP sequel.
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Originally Posted by Vyver
I might be wrong
but im like 95% positive that when people say CoH2 they're simply talking about a successor to it, especially post sunset. 95% |
When I see CoH2 I think people are referring to an upgraded true sequel that still contains the lore we are accustomed to, the current enhancement system, a new engine, etc etc... a TRUE sequel.
The successor from Titan Network is Plan Z (Not sure if they have settled on a name for it... Titan City maybe?). For IP purposes it has never been been referred to as CoH2 as they cannot incorporate any of the current lore legally.
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Originally Posted by Vyver
I might be wrong
but im like 95% positive that when people say CoH2 they're simply talking about a successor to it, especially post sunset. 95% |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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And just to be clear, Plan Z isn't *from* Titan Network. The group of people who are planning it just happen to be using the Titan forums as a place to coordinate, and will probably be setting up their own entity at some point in the future. Neither Tony nor any of the Titan folks are heading it up, and are only tangentially involved in it.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
The successor from Titan Network is Plan Z (Not sure if they have settled on a name for it... Titan City maybe?). For IP purposes it has never been been referred to as CoH2 as they cannot incorporate any of the current lore legally.
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It's better to think of it as "The planned successor from the City of Heroes/Villains community".
I never got to say first after red name... 
I'm never gonna be able to do my CoH sequel comic following War Witch and Apex after the end of their series. Was waiting for back details, specifically swords to do it... AND WE WERE JUST ABOUT TO GET THEM!!!! AAAAHHHH!!!
Damn you, NCSoft. You're blinded by ego to your lack of honor, morality and cowardice. The moment CoH goes dark and its IP buried, never to be seen again, will be the moment your clock starts ticking because its only a matter of time until your destruction. If the only way to get the IP sold is to cause the failure of your company, making you have to sell it as part of bankruptcy than so be it. If that's the only option you give us, than so be it.
Consider the disruption of your western market, your 6%, as our beta testing. We are only getting started. Release server side codes and allow private servers or sell the IP. Make a choice or like I said, we will make it for you.
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
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Point is CoH 2 never was even discussed in the seven years of life of CoH and that tell much about the real state of the game. That is a game that could survive but not spawn a sequel. None was willfull to risk with a CoH2 not NCsoft, not Cryptic that did sold its quota of CoH to develop is own game. I think very unlikely that someone would risk it now
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Originally Posted by Starsman
I did not mean actually players, at least not any that is familiar with the game. I meant publishers. Despite doing well CoH never reached huge numbers and it ended up canceling. Heck, I think you may be able to walk to some publishers with a finished CoH2 and they may say "ok but that name got to change."
But I do still think players that were never familiar with the game, players that only heard about it during it's cancelation coverage, are unlikely to remember anything other than, well... "it was that canceled MMO." Maybe. I got to admit I never felt a huge love for the lore in the game. I loved playing every new story arc at least once. I loved to find out this or that tie-up, no mater how cliche or lame it may have been (for the exception of the origin of power, I still hate that one arc and grinned my teeth all the way trough.) But the heroes in the universe? Positron? Statesman? Never really saw them as much but filler, or near placeholders. Volatile replacements for Superman or Ironman (not literally.) My point is: I don't think the IP is as strong. I don't think the comic books did too well either, so that may be a point proving this. I'm not saying it has to be a strong IP to be a successful and loved game, heck I loved the hell out of it, but independent of the game I don't feel the IP packed much punch. I don't hold my breath for many reasons. The only way a game called "City of Heroes 2" will happen is if NCSoft develops it themselves. It CAN happen. The SaveCOH may have given them the idea there is potential in there for a new game, and a game done by them, their way, may be marketable in Asia. But it would hold zero resemblance to what we play today, not without the same lead team. |
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Think they made a choice and I doubt threats like that will even get them to bother trying to change their mind. It probably want them to more hastily bury the game and everything with it if even to get rid of the insanity of those in the community that put out threats like this thinking it would convince them of anything. |
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker
I never got to say first after red name...
I'm never gonna be able to do my CoH sequel comic following War Witch and Apex after the end of their series. Was waiting for back details, specifically swords to do it... AND WE WERE JUST ABOUT TO GET THEM!!!! AAAAHHHH!!! Damn you, NCSoft. You're blinded by ego to your lack of honor, morality and cowardice. The moment CoH goes dark and its IP buried, never to be seen again, will be the moment your clock starts ticking because its only a matter of time until your destruction. If the only way to get the IP sold is to cause the failure of your company, making you have to sell it as part of bankruptcy than so be it. If that's the only option you give us, than so be it. Consider the disruption of your western market, your 6%, as our beta testing. We are only getting started. Release server side codes and allow private servers or sell the IP. Make a choice or like I said, we will make it for you. |
Would you be convinced if someone said that to a company you was running to sell or better yet, your own personal property to a person who came to you and threaten you and wish to ruin your finance because you refuse to sell him something that you wished to keep? Or would you start shaking in your boots and sell it to him because he made a threat. Would you continue to try and open lines of communication with a person that tries to threaten you, send threating emails, send odd packages to your home and workplace, and going around, like you are, saying "Sell or else bad stuff will happen because that is their only option now?" WOuld you pick up ther phone and say, "Well, since you put it that way, I sell it to you for what ever little bit of change you happen to have in your pocket now." Or would you label them as a nutcase and try to avoid contact and if you do see them you wont be so friendly towards them?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
In one of the various dev interviews after the shutdown announcement, it was revealed that a genuine Paragon-created CoH2 was planned and in development a few years ago (including a system where you wouldn't need to start over, you'd just transfer your CoH characters over to the new game, all their powers intact), but was shut down by NCSoft before it got too far. I'll have to dig that up.
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Thought TonyV was actually involved in the project according to the who's in charge section and who is doing what.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
And just to be clear, Plan Z isn't *from* Titan Network. The group of people who are planning it just happen to be using the Titan forums as a place to coordinate, and will probably be setting up their own entity at some point in the future. Neither Tony nor any of the Titan folks are heading it up, and are only tangentially involved in it.
It's better to think of it as "The planned successor from the City of Heroes/Villains community". |
Head Web Developer:
And, last but not least, handling our Web Development, we have TonyV, who will be developing our web-portal and online presence. He will be working closely with both Downix and Voodoo Girl to ensure that the look and feel of the game give our project a strong public face.
And if members here were create and plan a game here, it wouldnt be far-fetched to say that the game is a product of COX forum members, no? I guess the most proper term would be that PlanZ is being made by Titan Network forum members and a person that high up in the Titan Network pecking order. Thus Titan Network is involved with Plan Z. They are giving them resources and the place to plan it, one of the main guys of Titan Network is directly involved in the project, and the website is used as a recruitment, people that are planning and involved also seem to be Sithrose, a moderator of Titan Network forum and probably more involvement that I havent covered. Sounds like Titan Network is very much involved. And I wouldnt call those relative few that is planning Plan Z and making the decision THE COX community. PArt of, yes, but not the entire community. That really do kind of marginlize those that are not able to partake in Plan Z, not wantign to partake in Plan Z, dont have the needed skills to partake or contribute to Plan Z, those that would like to partake but dont have the time to partake and etc. If those that are working on the plan Z is THE community, then what does that make the rest of the people, the thousands, possible 50,000-100,000 that is not part of Plan Z creation? They are not the community anymore?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
Which is... exactly what I said. Tony is involved in one small piece of it (web development).
SithRose was made a moderator because they are wrangling Plan Z forum sections, not the other way around.
One of the reasons they're considering moving to independent forums is to avoid exactly that kind of confusion.
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thanks for the clear up. |
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Which is... exactly what I said. Tony is involved in one small piece of it (web development).
SithRose was made a moderator because they are wrangling Plan Z forum sections, not the other way around. One of the reasons they're considering moving to independent forums is to avoid exactly that kind of confusion. |
Makes sense.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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There have been some leaks indicating that there were indeed 2 attempts to push CoH 2 but both were disregarded by NCSoft. One was a full separate game, the other one was an "evolution" of CoH to turn the game itself into a 2.0 game.|
Originally Posted by savagedeacon_NA
Point is CoH 2 never was even discussed in the seven years of life of CoH and that tell much about the real state of the game. That is a game that could survive but not spawn a sequel. None was willfull to risk with a CoH2 not NCsoft, not Cryptic that did sold its quota of CoH to develop is own game. I think very unlikely that someone would risk it now
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But I do agree with you, no one cared about publishing a CoH 2 because the name did not carry the marketing strength to justify it.
I have to admit on a certain level I wonder if NCSoft did some damage to the whole MMO concept with their decision to cancel COH so abruptly ... at least in the Western Markets.
Personally, I can't see myself ever getting as emotionally attached to another MMO as I am to COH. Not because there isn't a game out there that is-- or won't be someday-- that's just as entertaining and fun as COH but because having been burned by such an unexpected closure-- one that not even the Devs knew was coming-- I can't see myself be willing to invest as much time and money in another game like I did COH.
With MMOs basically gong to a FTP micro-transaction based economy, they are to a larger degree than before more dependent on customer loyalty. When they shut down such a seemingly healthy game, they didn't just affect the COH customer ... they also affected the other players of other games who read about it. Will the DC Online fan or the Champions Fan-- or the fan of any MMO that isn't WOW-- now think twice about spending $10, $20, $50 or $100.00 on a costume or pet or powerset knowing that even if their game seems healthy right now it could wind up on the chopping block at any time?
To be sure, there are many people who are just MMO fans. When a given game shuts down, they just move on to another-- or never spend more than a few months or any given game-- but there's also the long term "been here since beta" fans of every game. How many of THOSE fans are going to cut back their financial or emotional involvement in a game because of what's happened to COH?
I don't know. There may not be any effect at all, but it is something I've pondered lately.
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
One can only hope people don't get so emotionally involved.
As for the rest of your hyperbole; meh. To say that CoH was "healthy" is quite the stretch as it was BARELY maintaining it's revenue the past few years and is anemic in comparison to 2-3 years ago.
Posi's statement about CoH being the Largest/Most active may be true, but rest assured some MMO will take it's place sooner than later than can "boast" that. I mean SWG probably could have boasted such claims when it was shut down. I doubt CoH will have much effect NOW on the MMO industry; it didn't have that much of an effect when it was active. Most people I know moved on very shortly after 8/31 to GW2, STO, and CO. Not all CoH players are as "emotionally" attached as some/most...nor do they harbor such ill will as some people towards NCSoft.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
I have to admit on a certain level I wonder if NCSoft did some damage to the whole MMO concept with their decision to cancel COH so abruptly ... at least in the Western Markets.
Personally, I can't see myself ever getting as emotionally attached to another MMO as I am to COH. Not because there isn't a game out there that is-- or won't be someday-- that's just as entertaining and fun as COH but because having been burned by such an unexpected closure-- one that not even the Devs knew was coming-- I can't see myself be willing to invest as much time and money in another game like I did COH. With MMOs basically gong to a FTP micro-transaction based economy, they are to a larger degree than before more dependent on customer loyalty. When they shut down such a seemingly healthy game, they didn't just affect the COH customer ... they also affected the other players of other games who read about it. Will the DC Online fan or the Champions Fan-- or the fan of any MMO that isn't WOW-- now think twice about spending $10, $20, $50 or $100.00 on a costume or pet or powerset knowing that even if their game seems healthy right now it could wind up on the chopping block at any time? To be sure, there are many people who are just MMO fans. When a given game shuts down, they just move on to another-- or never spend more than a few months or any given game-- but there's also the long term "been here since beta" fans of every game. How many of THOSE fans are going to cut back their financial or emotional involvement in a game because of what's happened to COH? I don't know. There may not be any effect at all, but it is something I've pondered lately. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
One can only hope people don't get so emotionally involved.
As for the rest of your hyperbole; meh. To say that CoH was "healthy" is quite the stretch as it was BARELY maintaining it's revenue the past few years and is anemic in comparison to 2-3 years ago. Posi's statement about CoH being the Largest/Most active may be true, but rest assured some MMO will take it's place sooner than later than can "boast" that. I mean SWG probably could have boasted such claims when it was shut down. I doubt CoH will have much effect NOW on the MMO industry; it didn't have that much of an effect when it was active. Most people I know moved on very shortly after 8/31 to GW2, STO, and CO. Not all CoH players are as "emotionally" attached as some/most...nor do they harbor such ill will as some people towards NCSoft. |
Emotional attachment brings financial investment in a MMO. Certainly a Game Studio wants you to care about your gaming experience-- that's how they make money off you. They may laugh at you behind your back, but they are still going to do everything they can to get you to buy yet another goodie for $4.99.
The Devs didn't expect such an abrupt closure with a new issue on the horizon-- they were still hiring relatively recently. So as far as they knew, they had no reason to expect their jobs to be at risk. To be fair, I don't know how much advance warning other game studios got, but I'd wager their upper management knew they were on the bubble well before Paragon did.
Heck, NCSoft had made major investments in Paragon even AFTER COH failed in Korea. They wouldn't have done that if they hadn't expected to get a decent return on investment. They may not have gotten it, but until relatively recently they were giving the impression to Paragon they were satisfied with its performance.
The people you know-- the people who moved on-- on average, how much did they spend on COH? Would they have stuck around if COH HADN'T closed? There's always going to be casual MMOers ... people who don't particularly game if ANY game closes down. There are also going to be those who will only PLAY one game in their life.
Observer bias. You and your friends may have no real emotional investment in the game. Myself and others may have a far greater attachment to it than its actual impact warrants.
What no one knows-- yet-- is if there are going to be any serious repercussions to NCSoft-- or the MMO industry as a whole-- afterwards.
You could be right. A year from now no one but a few diehards may care that COH was ever here.
But you could also be wrong.
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
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While revenue certainly seemed to be down over the last 2-3 years, I'm not sure anemic is the correct term. I wouldn't be surprised to find out down the line that the game was making more money then "we" realize. I still believe, rightly or wrongly, that the game was making $5 mil a year in profits, if not more, before the closure announcement. Mind you, this is all based on hearsay and conjecture, from the things I've read and heard. |
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
To say that CoH was "healthy" is quite the stretch as it was BARELY maintaining it's revenue the past few years and is anemic in comparison to 2-3 years ago.
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Should those turn out to be true, anemic wouldn't be the term I'd use.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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What does the average successful MMO rakes in a year?
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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I believe Google/Bing and other search engines might be able to answer that for you.
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
What does the average successful MMO rakes in a year?
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Heh, the funny thing is, I don't think people/companies share a definition for "successful MMO".
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
What does the average successful MMO rakes in a year?
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@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Yeah that would be WAY over what most people have guessed at the profit based off information gathered. WAY over; like more than double. The best cost analysis I seen figured approx 2 million profit in 2011 and would have been the same for 2012.
The player base is 1/3 what it was 3-4 years ago. CoH in 2012 has had approx 50-60k subscribers. Looking back over the sub numbers that is almost 1/4 the number we had at our peak. Just because I say CoH was sloowly dying..does not for one minute reflect my opinion about CoH; which was that it is the best MMO out there.
BTW on a side note: People who even think that NCSoft was offered 80 million for CoH are delusional. NO company is going to pay $80 million for CoH. It would take 40 years to even break even at the current profit rate. Heck even if CoH made 5 mill profit a year... that's still 16 years! Come on people....Common sense is your friend
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
While revenue certainly seemed to be down over the last 2-3 years, I'm not sure anemic is the correct term. I wouldn't be surprised to find out down the line that the game was making more money then "we" realize. I still believe, rightly or wrongly, that the game was making $5 mil a year in profits, if not more, before the closure announcement. Mind you, this is all based on hearsay and conjecture, from the things I've read and heard.
Should those turn out to be true, anemic wouldn't be the term I'd use. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Emotional attachments? To your pastime? A fictional, virtual pastime of silliness?|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
I have to admit on a certain level I wonder if NCSoft did some damage to the whole MMO concept with their decision to cancel COH so abruptly ... at least in the Western Markets.
Personally, I can't see myself ever getting as emotionally attached to another MMO as I am to COH. Not because there isn't a game out there that is-- or won't be someday-- that's just as entertaining and fun as COH but because having been burned by such an unexpected closure-- one that not even the Devs knew was coming-- I can't see myself be willing to invest as much time and money in another game like I did COH. With MMOs basically gong to a FTP micro-transaction based economy, they are to a larger degree than before more dependent on customer loyalty. When they shut down such a seemingly healthy game, they didn't just affect the COH customer ... they also affected the other players of other games who read about it. Will the DC Online fan or the Champions Fan-- or the fan of any MMO that isn't WOW-- now think twice about spending $10, $20, $50 or $100.00 on a costume or pet or powerset knowing that even if their game seems healthy right now it could wind up on the chopping block at any time? To be sure, there are many people who are just MMO fans. When a given game shuts down, they just move on to another-- or never spend more than a few months or any given game-- but there's also the long term "been here since beta" fans of every game. How many of THOSE fans are going to cut back their financial or emotional involvement in a game because of what's happened to COH? I don't know. There may not be any effect at all, but it is something I've pondered lately. |
What planet are you from?
We here on planet Jyrkth laugh at puny, infantile fools that have emotional attachments to such things.
Business must cater to the most fickle and unattached customers as possible, for that is what our calculations tell us is the most extreme optimal income glory.
Only children with dolls and baseball cards get such feeble attachments!
And sports enthusiasts...
And television watchers...
And movie watchers...
And book readers...
And coin collectors...
And in politics and religions and pie-making contests...
And wickers... don't ever get in the way of someone making a wicker-basket.
Hehe, every cold move such as this negatively affects the market and the potential (and former) customers.
Unfortunately, this is a market that is continually proving that they don't want such customers. They want the crash and burn customers. The locusts... swarm in, destroy and leave. Only... they all think they can somehow stop them from leaving and/or continue to attract a consistent amount of new locusts. None of them have been able to do that so far though... And they all keep scratching their heads as to why they're not more successful.
*shrugs*
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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It's always possible the $80 million number people have heard is what NcSoft wanted to sell the IP for, not what they were offered. As I mentioned somewhere else, I believe the IP was worth less then 1/3 of that prior to the announcement. I think any group that valued the CoH IP at $80 million (buyer or seller) should have to have their heads examined. Mind you, we've seen Corporations do silly things before.
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
BTW on a side note: People who even think that NCSoft was offered 80 million for CoH are delusional. NO company is going to pay $80 million for CoH. It would take 40 years to even break even at the current profit rate. Heck even if CoH made 5 mill profit a year... that's still 16 years! Come on people....Common sense is your friend
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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And i do check those sites, but if you quoted further down that post, i also mentioned that most of the ones i saw was pretty much just reporting the event without additional commentary as to the health of the game, or the ones that did have a commentary tone i have found, tended to be written by someone who plays or played CoX. Which then, the description of "people from here" would apply.
But i always ask in case i missed something...i don't exactly have spiderbots that scour the internet for me or anything hehe.