Why bother?
Why would a community do that? They care about the game. Not the dev team, which should really make any creative person sad.
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If a miracle shows up and the game as it exists now gets to continue and/or restart somewhere else, I would play it. I would be concerned about where it would go from there without at least some of the existing development team behind it.
Beyond that, I do care about this dev team because they have been fantastic at engagement of their game's community. They not only made overt, direct use of our feedback, many of them communicated their own thoughts and intentions back to us on a scale unique in the MMO scene as far as I can tell.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
That's why Durakken has so much money he's willing to contribute towards the cause - He's the CEO of Durakken Industries, leading manufacturer of the iTroll.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/ChrisMoses/Signatures/TeamMarvelSmall.png)
So I've been watching this since I heard about it and i don't get why people are bothering with it. No, I don't mean I don't know why you are feeling bad and trying to save this game. I mean why bother trying to get NCsoft to change their position when regardless of why they are doing this the reality of the matter is that this keeps happening over and over again with CoH. Loyal fans and Dedicated (well mostly dedicated) developers are great at what they do be damned.
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If NCSoft was actually trying to kill the game, they'd have rebuffed talks on the subject.
The idea that CoH had to be cut to make up for lost money elsewhere is ridiculous. |
The fact is, let's say you all get this saved and celebrate, given the track record, what makes you think that this isn't just going to happen again? |
Nobody is asking for NCSoft to remain the publisher. A new publisher is needed, someone with a more personal stake in the game.
What makes you think that CoH as a product in the hands of NCSoft isn't damaged to a large degree already? |
Still, a LOT of advertising "hay" can be made of a game that was saved by the heroes it spawned.
This matters because if it is, then that will be used for the next argument to shut it down. |
So I say, why not do something relatively unique. You claim you have a great community here so why not try something more community based. As a community BUY the game. BUY Paragon Studios. |
Put up the money via kick starter or indiegogo or one of those sites. |
Also, how do you legitimately assign ownership when essentially one person is in charge of the funds?
Also, are you stepping all over any possible dealings by Paragon to rescue themselves?
Coordination like this doesn't come easy or fast.
Also, did it occur to you that NCSoft might be interested in things besides just raw dollar signs?
Obviously there would have to be something worked out for the ownership and control and all like that, but that should be easily handled by anyone with a keen enough business mind. |
Sorry, but armchair-exec'ing here doesn't help.
My point is. Put your money on the table and show them you want it. Many of you pay months ahead and that's a big amount of money quarterly. The worst that can happen is it doesn't work out, but if it does. You've then done something amazing and unique that no other community can say they've done and you essentially have control over the game and don't have to worry about these things that keep cropping up every few years. |
Corporations don't take much if at all to set up. There are large benefits of doing it some places, like, if I remember right, Maryland.
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Actually setting up a business organization to RUN things is harder.
And negotiating with a property holder who has demands beyond the strictly monetary harder still.
Who would set it up is easy. I would assume one of the head developer. |
And, honestly, you don't want your developer as the person in charge of the business aspect of the game. Sorry. You just don't. You hire someone who knows how to run a business. Who actually can sit down and count the beans when necessary. Not the guy who goes "I have code to get out, maybe later."
There is also another strategy. Plan to develop a new game and start now, if you can't get CoH, the game, maintain the spirit. There is nothing that says that you have to raise the money to buy that game because what is really important is the dev team and community so set a goal based on that figure and if you can buy the IP and such, great, if not, sink that into a newer better venture that is the "spiritual" successor. |
Game companies and various enterprises have already raised insane amounts of cash and to say that you're worried you can't while bragging about your community is pathetic. And any amount you would need to buy CoH would likely be enough, several times over to fund development for a new game. |
Yes. Some of the things involved can be made to go away simply by throwing money at it. Others can't.
What was the number of petitioners? 18,000? If each of them instead of signing that petition were to have donated to such a cause the VIP sub amount for 1 quarter it would 1.08million dollars and that is more than enough to get dedicated developers to working on something, but then I believe that this community is somewhat loyal and the devs do care enough to stay on with that budget. The question really then comes down to are you about community and loyalty to the developers or do you just want your game. |
Going out, buying something, and then giving it to someone else and telling them "here, get to work" doesn't always fly.
Also, what happens the first time they make a decision one of these people doesn't like?
First of all, It's always amazing that people don't realize the power of slapping the million down over saying that you can do it, and this uncertainty of "I'd do it! I really really would, but I don't know how much you want...so I can't" is utter idiocy.
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Oh and I never said anything about the negotians with NCsoft. Don't know. Don't care. My comment was to how to handle ownership if you were to make a player own company which would require contracts and such, but that's not really all that hard to do. |
Why would a community do that? They care about the game. Not the dev team, which should really make any creative person sad.
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What's the term? Oh yeah. "Willfully ignorant."
This thread should be stickier as an object lesson in being clueless and obtuse. If nothing else it would make a useful reference point the next time someone posts, "Is he really serious?"
(Oh, and as a side note WoW released several months after CoH.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
ah yes now I remember why I have him on ignore....
Someone who's familiar with Durakken, please tell me if we're being trolled.
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For those unfamiliar, it goes something like this:
See a topic. Think of a completely contrarian stance on said topic. Make a long winded, unrealistic, weak and uninformed argument for your stance. Make sure and argue no matter how many facts, stats or truths are stated by others. Never give in no matter how silly you look. Make some type of insult implying people's intellectual inferiority confuses you. Ignore anything remotely factual, truthful, level headed, reasoned or correct. Rinse. Repeat in as many threads as possible. |
Actually I think this is more along the lines of the posts he used to make in the old SGU threads where he makes uninformed comments about an episode from what he saw briefly in the advertisements for the next weeks episode. Then someone that actually watched the episode would post excerpts from the script along with a time stamp where it could be located during the episode (at 23:14 characters say . . . or "x" happens) proving him wrong.
So what I believe we are seeing is Durakken saw something in passing or observed a part of a conversation in the game, and as usual he let his imagination fill in the rest without doing any further research and then he proceeded to post following the example MentalMaiden provided.
And of course since in his own mind he can't possibly be wrong he's instinctively defensive.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Why would a community do that? They care about the game. Not the dev team, which should really make any creative person sad.
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Yup we don't care at all.
and now here is a llink
I know how these things work, but that negotiation has nothing to do with what the community can do.
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It is simple. It is more or less just a basic selling of share in a company or an RoI, but that's only if you go that route of ownership. If you go with a start up funded by one of those sites then I'm sure access to alpha and beta tests and all like that would be more than enough
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"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
@Durakken, I agree with some of your perspective in that it does seems somewhat of a Fools' Errand attempt to delay the inevitable. CoX is long in the tooth and now it has taken a direct hit that has altered many players perception of the game and MMOs in general.
Even if it were to rebound; if it remained in its current form, CoX would be the aging lion in a pride that its not even the Alpha male of.
Personally, I'm all for seeing it re-imagined and reinvented; from the engine up and that would probably mean scrapping almost everything everyone is trying to save (except the premise) and giving it the Steve Austin treatment.
I'm looking for a similar evolution for the game itself that I was seeing in the PR expansion for the game.
I'm looking for a similar evolution from the industry that I see happening from the social gaming sector.
Don't get me wrong, I like CoX but it (and MMOs in general) aren't even trying to keep up with the biggest shift in computing tech to happen in a long time and at some point its going to kill them.
All IMO, so don't get too bent out about it.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
Soy you have cancer and you have a few months to live. Bummer. Your life is being sunsetted.
Why bother fighting? I mean....why? that cancer might just come back again. And then what good will all your fighting do? Far better to just roll over, look at the wall and wait for death. . |
-Female Player-
On second thought, don't. While I haven't personally tried it, I can't imagine it's any good. But I'm not a beer drinker.
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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It's not that. What we're getting bent out about is Durakken belittling the efforts of the people who are trying to save this game by saying things like that it would 'so easy' to do it by 'just' getting a pile of money together and tossing it at NCSoft. He doesn't understand that the business world doesn't work that way and is insulting the people putting in the effort to organize things (like negotiating with NCSoft to convince them to let the IP go) by telling them he knows better and their work is a waste of time. That's what we're getting bent out about here.
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There is nothing "valuable" in my estimation about the game other than nostalgia, history, and brand name. And while those are nice to have sometimes, it is not the should be focused on. Are you really telling me that the devs can't create a newer better engine? or newer better lore? or newer better mechanics? i don't buy that for a second, but that's what trying to save this game really does. You're fighting for something that could be outdone in short order if you were to allow them to move on as a team.
For bringing in new capital that a start up needs to get going the only thing that is valuable out of those 3 things is the brand name which holds only a small amount of value, but even that with enough of a loyal fan base word of mouth would spread that it is the same people and thus in that sense isn't that valuable either. The only value then of buying the IP is the lore. And while it is cool it'd be like saying that an artist should just keep painting their first painting because it's so awesome as it is, rather than taking those skills and creating something altogether new and likely better.
Skip the buying the IP which will cost all that money, keep the team together, and create a new IP with the funds that you would spend on something that has relatively little value for what you'd pay for it. And maybe you find this all insulting that I would say your efforts are in folly, but they are. No matter what the result is, the best you can hope for is paying several million dollars for a game that due to these hits will continue to lose money likely only lasting a few more years before the numbers become too low to maintain anything more than the lights on with 2 of the 4 or 5 years left the game likely has left (now that it was hit with this) being in the red. And then where does this start up go from there? Nowhere because it doesn't have the money so it either dies or needs new investors and you are back at this same situation, pushed 5 years down road, working with a system that wasn't all that great to begin with from everything that is said.
If you take the money you'd pay for the IP and dump it into a new IP you might be in the red for the same amount of time, but the game "should" be better, you have a clean slate with new fans, and the IP is likely better and you will have a lot more profit in the end.
Assuming people follow the dev team with what they do Buying the game gives you a steady decline while building a new game the risk is virtually the same but it has a much higher RoI for an investor because there is always that spike of new people that are curious.
So in the end all you are doing is wasting time and effort if you are looking for the best possible product and profit. If you're goal is simply to tarnish NCSoft... You're doing a decent job. Or if your goal is to get your game back it's a crap shoot, but I'd bet your largely wasting your time and even if it works out you're going to get a much diminished product.
Just a guess, but speaking as someone who has been laid off - the devs really can't wait around. Many of them have already moved on as best they could.
Would they come back if someone finally raised enough money to set up a new indie studio? Maybe, especially those who have a nice nest egg saved up and don't have other people to support financially and don't mind living on ramen noodles. The others, with responsibilities to more than themselves or no desire to live that frugally - not so much.
Out of curiosity, have you ever worked in a U.S. corporation at any level of management for any length of time? Your observations about how easy it would be to assemble a group of players to pitch in enough money (any ideas about how much that might take, BTW?) and then set up a structure to keep the business side of things running while the creative types (the devs) continue to make this fantastic new game you want to see - they all seem to be observations of someone who hasn't had to deal with any of those situations before personally. The observations lack the ring of RL experiences sometimes seen in the newly graduated from school, or one still in school.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
Again, I heartily invite you to put your money where your mouth is. Right now, you are doing nothing useful. You're just telling the people who are trying to do something that you know better - so show it. Do something. If you really do know better, it'll obviously work, right? So why are you still here instead of enacting your amazing plan?
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
Can I have some of what you are smoking?
That's what you got out of what I said and while it is a waste of time in my opinion, because it is only postponing the innevitable and wasting money on something that could be spent in other places, but if that's what you want to waste time and money on. Go right ahead.
There is nothing "valuable" in my estimation about the game other than nostalgia, history, and brand name. And while those are nice to have sometimes, it is not the should be focused on. Are you really telling me that the devs can't create a newer better engine? or newer better lore? or newer better mechanics? i don't buy that for a second, but that's what trying to save this game really does. You're fighting for something that could be outdone in short order if you were to allow them to move on as a team. For bringing in new capital that a start up needs to get going the only thing that is valuable out of those 3 things is the brand name which holds only a small amount of value, but even that with enough of a loyal fan base word of mouth would spread that it is the same people and thus in that sense isn't that valuable either. The only value then of buying the IP is the lore. And while it is cool it'd be like saying that an artist should just keep painting their first painting because it's so awesome as it is, rather than taking those skills and creating something altogether new and likely better. Skip the buying the IP which will cost all that money, keep the team together, and create a new IP with the funds that you would spend on something that has relatively little value for what you'd pay for it. And maybe you find this all insulting that I would say your efforts are in folly, but they are. No matter what the result is, the best you can hope for is paying several million dollars for a game that due to these hits will continue to lose money likely only lasting a few more years before the numbers become too low to maintain anything more than the lights on with 2 of the 4 or 5 years left the game likely has left (now that it was hit with this) being in the red. And then where does this start up go from there? Nowhere because it doesn't have the money so it either dies or needs new investors and you are back at this same situation, pushed 5 years down road, working with a system that wasn't all that great to begin with from everything that is said. If you take the money you'd pay for the IP and dump it into a new IP you might be in the red for the same amount of time, but the game "should" be better, you have a clean slate with new fans, and the IP is likely better and you will have a lot more profit in the end. Assuming people follow the dev team with what they do Buying the game gives you a steady decline while building a new game the risk is virtually the same but it has a much higher RoI for an investor because there is always that spike of new people that are curious. So in the end all you are doing is wasting time and effort if you are looking for the best possible product and profit. If you're goal is simply to tarnish NCSoft... You're doing a decent job. Or if your goal is to get your game back it's a crap shoot, but I'd bet your largely wasting your time and even if it works out you're going to get a much diminished product. |
One thing that has always amazed be about Durakken is how exceptionally wrong he is... all the time! It's like... how can someone be so wrong? Always? Is there some kind of effort to be wrong all the time required, or is it one of those cosmic laws that dictates that there has to be someone who is always wrong, turned up to 11?
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
Haven't been here in years. First thing I see? A thread where Durakken is wrong about something.
The nostalgia is overwhelming!
Soy you have cancer and you have a few months to live. Bummer. Your life is being sunsetted.
Why bother fighting? I mean....why? that cancer might just come back again. And then what good will all your fighting do? Far better to just roll over, look at the wall and wait for death.
Generally speaking, one thing that greatly amuses me when reading the responses to our efforts, is the supposition by WoW players that their game is somewhow superior and they will never face a sunset. *splutter* yeah right "CoH is old, it needs a sunset. WoW is great!" as if WoW isn't even older than this game.