City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Good News from BABs (from the mouth of Jack)

Arcanaville

By Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-09-04 13:05 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remidi View Post
I don't think anyone expects CoH players boycotting NCSoft to make the company go under. It just gives us personal satisfaction.
NCSoft seems to have forgotten the golden rule of customer communcations: Angry customers will tell six times' more people about their dissatisfaction than those who are happy will.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by shadow35 View Post
NCSoft seems to have forgotten the golden rule of customer communcations: Angry customers will tell six times' more people about their dissatisfaction than those who are happy will.
Six times the number of angry CoH customers is still a very small number - otherwise, they wouldn't have needed to shut it down.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Star Trek Online also runs on the same engine, and it's nothing like CoH or Champions.
Ohhh yes it is. The WeGame recorder would always upload Star Trek Online videos as Champions Online regularly, because the executable was so extremely similar. We never got it to categorize it right - I used to work there.

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
... you talking the graphic shaders. You don't even need a new engine to add shaders.

The server/client code for Champions, STO and CoH is the same at the core, with many evolutions on each paths after the forks.

But shading, thats just a small text file you pass to the engine along with the material so OpenGL knows how to draw the object on screen.
FloatingFatMan and I have the same data: Cryptic Studios very specifically and in detail wrote about how they created a brand new engine from the ground up. BAB was originally moved from CoH to work on the new engine (and then left Cryptic to rejoin the CoH project with Paragon). On the Cryptic forums, they would explain all the cool stuff they're doing with the brand new engine that they couldn't do with the CoH engine. BAB specifically said that CoH textures and rigs and stuff couldn't be used/ported to the new engine. Everything... environment, costumes, rigs... were brand new. There was *no forking*.

Then Cryptic bragged about how they were able to churn out STO so soon after CO because they purposely made a brand new engine that was versatile enough to create new systems.

Now, what's the source of your info that it's the same engine?

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow35 View Post
But it gets less and less likely that anything professional and positive will really happen as the days tick by here....
hmm..... let's see...... how many business days has it been at this point?


ONE

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The Mentor Project

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
hmm..... let's see...... how many business days has it been at this point?


ONE
Not even. By my clock there are still nearly 7 hours left today.

 

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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
FloatingFatMan and I have the same data: Cryptic Studios very specifically and in detail wrote about how they created a brand new engine from the ground up. BAB was originally moved from CoH to work on the new engine (and then left Cryptic to rejoin the CoH project with Paragon). On the Cryptic forums, they would explain all the cool stuff they're doing with the brand new engine that they couldn't do with the CoH engine. BAB specifically said that CoH textures and rigs and stuff couldn't be used/ported to the new engine. Everything... environment, costumes, rigs... were brand new. There was *no forking*.

Then Cryptic bragged about how they were able to churn out STO so soon after CO because they purposely made a brand new engine that was versatile enough to create new systems.

Now, what's the source of your info that it's the same engine?
As far as I'm aware, CO is essentially an entire new engine, and STO runs on it. As far as I'm aware, its design aesthetic has more in common with the aborted MUO engine than the CoH engine, although I don't know if they were allowed to simply reuse the code from that project either (they couldn't really reuse art assets).

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
The real question is how far along that second project was.
It was suggested to me that it was far enough along that had we made it into 2013, there's a pretty good chance we might have started getting teasers about it. That could still be years away from full launch though.

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Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
Six times the number of angry CoH customers is still a very small number - otherwise, they wouldn't have needed to shut it down.
That's not the point. The point is that we are all consumers with a right to spend our money as we see fit. I don't expect my $30 a month to be a major loss, no more than Target or Exxon or a number of other companies suffered when I stopped shopping there. But I refuse to give my money to companies that do not deal with me in good faith, or that have corporate practices I don't agree with.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
It was suggested to me that it was far enough along that had we made it into 2013, there's a pretty good chance we might have started getting teasers about it. That could still be years away from full launch though.
So why give up? From a business standpoint and the current fan movement of a game not entirely seen before, wouldn't that set in stone a success for CoH2?

If they really invest all of their time and money into these fantasy MMO's, well, they will eventually just pull out of the west because of the current decline MMO's are going through.

Fight The Power

 

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Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
Six times the number of angry CoH customers is still a very small number - otherwise, they wouldn't have needed to shut it down.
An estimated 9 million players is a small number? And 54 million poeple is still a small number???

scource? Well, before you ask... Here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
It was suggested to me that it was far enough along that had we made it into 2013, there's a pretty good chance we might have started getting teasers about it. That could still be years away from full launch though.
Well, MishiiLove, who seems to keep intimating that she has some NCSoft connection somehow (Daughter of the CEO? Delusional? Who knows? I'm applying my analyzing skills for a probability conjecture... working...) says it's still coming out, and in July.

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Posted

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Originally Posted by St_Angelius View Post
An estimated 9 million players is a small number? And 54 million poeple is still a small number???

scource? Well, before you ask... Here
I was talking to my best friend about this whole deal this weekend. I was telling him how I was not going to ever give another penny to NCSoft. Guess what he did in return? Keep trying to convince me to buy Guild Wars 2.

This is our pain. We can try to convince others, but you will never manage to make others to feel the way we feel. Ever. Best you can do is add a bit of skepticism in some one that never cared for NCSoft titles before, but it's going to be very very hard for you to actually change the heart of some one that gets hyped by marketing of a new title just due to how we feel about this betrayal.

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
As far as I'm aware, CO is essentially an entire new engine, and STO runs on it. As far as I'm aware, its design aesthetic has more in common with the aborted MUO engine than the CoH engine, although I don't know if they were allowed to simply reuse the code from that project either (they couldn't really reuse art assets).
There were some screenshots from CO in development that used City of Heroes maps, as I recall. There was quite a flap about it back then.

 

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Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I was talking to my best friend about this whole deal this weekend. I was telling him how I was not going to ever give another penny to NCSoft. Guess what he did in return? Keep trying to convince me to buy Guild Wars 2.

This is our pain. We can try to convince others, but you will never manage to make others to feel the way we feel. Ever. Best you can do is add a bit of skepticism in some one that never cared for NCSoft titles before, but it's going to be very very hard for you to actually change the heart of some one that gets hyped by marketing of a new title just due to how we feel about this betrayal.
Oh, i'm not saying that we will be able to sway others feelings, more at the assertion that CoH had a small number of players. I don't concider 9 million to be a small number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by St_Angelius View Post
An estimated 9 million players is a small number? And 54 million poeple is still a small number???

scource? Well, before you ask... Here
Hmm, i know where they got that 43 million characters created but where did they get the 9 million players?

 

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Originally Posted by Pebblebrook View Post
Hmm, i know where they got that 43 million characters created but where did they get the 9 million players?
I think its 9 million people who have ever made accounts. They don't necessarily have to still play or even spend money. And some could be alts.

 

Posted

Heh, i would not have thought it was 9 million all at once...but just curious where they got that number...whether calculated or not and by whom.

The place that mentioned 43 million characters was in the 8yr anniversary address but it didn't mention number of players at all. It mentioned over 500k accounts (presumably created sometime during those 8 years) with a level 50 alt but no indication of total players within that time.

<-- like collecting links.

 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
As far as I'm aware, CO is essentially an entire new engine, and STO runs on it. As far as I'm aware, its design aesthetic has more in common with the aborted MUO engine than the CoH engine, although I don't know if they were allowed to simply reuse the code from that project either (they couldn't really reuse art assets).
During the development of Champions, i recall hearing a lot the Cryptic Engine 2.0 monicker being tossed around. A google search brings up this name up quite a bit.

Mind you, it CAN be a total rewrite, but I don't think it's that drastic. If you dig into the Champions Online file structure, you will find an extremely familiar Piggs file directory, only the extension is renamed to hogg. The format is not the exactly same (at least not the file header,) but oppening both apps bin.x files will reveal they still are rather similar.

Sure, the entire core engine may have been rewritten from scratch, but seems to me everything points at a non-insignifcant amount of code being shared between both versions. Perhaps another reason to add to your licensing post.

 

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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Well, MishiiLove, who seems to keep intimating that she has some NCSoft connection somehow (Daughter of the CEO? Delusional? Who knows? I'm applying my analyzing skills for a probability conjecture... working...) says it's still coming out, and in July.
I think Mishii might be on acid. July 13 of next year falls on a Saturday.

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Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
I think its 9 million people who have ever made accounts. They don't necessarily have to still play or even spend money. And some could be alts.
I think 9 million accounts is most likely, since they can't really know for sure if it's distinct people or just one person playing multiple accounts. It, likely, also includes trials (which means I'd be counted 3+ times, 4+ if it was post-Freedom numbers).

And, yeah, none of my friends cared enough to not get GW2, even ones that had liked CoH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!

 

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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight View Post

Also, do you have a link to where BaBs posted it? It'll be good to be able to post directly to that the next time someone brings it up.
Since I didn't see anyone else answer that, here's the entire quote from a rumor thread in the Justice Server forums. Only fitting that BAB/Tic-Toc answer there. You'll see a few posts by him in that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tic-Toc View Post
Cross-post:
Ironically, Champions Online celebrated its 3rd year anniversary today and we had a quick company-wide meeting that where last Friday's bombshell about City of Heroes/Paragon came up.

During Q&A time with Jack, I pont-blank asked him if there was any truth to the rumors about expired licensing agreement with Cryptic's COH engine. He was taken aback about this, unaware of such rumors going around. His response was that NCSoft has the license to use the CoH engine "in perpituity" for both "City of Heroes/City of Villains" as well as a 2nd game.

I asked him if there was going to be any official response to this rumor concerning Cryptic/PWE and it's not something we plan on doing. We obviously can't be aware of or comment on every rumor floating around on the internet he wasn't sure of what they could say about this particular scenario if they wanted to.

So whatever reasons NCSoft had for shuttering Paragon, it had absolutely nothing to do with the IP, which they own, or the engine, which they had a license to use indefinitely.

That's about all I can do to quell this rumor. Take it as you will.

Again, thoughts go out to all my friends, former co-workers, and recent friendly rivals who've been released into the wild. I hope to see many of them here in the halls of Cryptic very soon. :P
EDIT: Also posted here in a different thread discussing that rumor.

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Posted

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Originally Posted by St_Angelius View Post
An estimated 9 million players is a small number? And 54 million poeple is still a small number???

scource? Well, before you ask... Here
Ok, first of all, as has already been pointed out, it's 43 million characters and not 54 million.

Second, that link has absolutely no basis for the 9 million players.

Look at the numbers. According to MMOdata, back in 2008-2009, CoH/V was holding steady at around 125,000 subscribers, and pulling in ~5-6 billion Won/quarter. Now CoH/V is pulling in half that amount.

It's an open question how much people were spending post Freedom, so let's assume for the moment that it's about the same. That means right now that CoH/V has around 60,000 paying individuals.

Now you also have to realize that not all of them are going to be outraged by this. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people and a lot of angry people, but go-all-over-and-boycott-ncsoft levels of rage are the exception, not the rule. Even if each of those individuals tell 6 other people, I'd really be surprised if it reaches 60,000 people who get the "news".

Compared with GW2 and Aion where there actually *are* millions of players, this is a drop in the bucket.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight View Post
I think 9 million accounts is most likely, since they can't really know for sure if it's distinct people or just one person playing multiple accounts. It, likely, also includes trials (which means I'd be counted 3+ times, 4+ if it was post-Freedom numbers).

And, yeah, none of my friends cared enough to not get GW2, even ones that had liked CoH.
I personally have 9 accounts...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by St_Angelius View Post
An estimated 9 million players is a small number? And 54 million poeple is still a small number???

scource? Well, before you ask... Here
Nine million makes no sense. The links that article references (and the original link back to the CoH site, the 8 year stats) doesn't mention nine million at all. The only stat about players was that 500K had at least one Level 50. The 7 year infographic also does not mention players. The peek number of accounts logged in over a month ever reported by NCSoft was 194K in 4th quarter 2005. The last quarter they reported this number was Q2 2008 and it was down to 137K.

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