If you haven't looked at the new Skulls, please do.

The Club Hair Club for Men!

Count me among those who don't have a problem with it. I can't see myself using it (or one of my characters), but it works for a certain type of self-obsessed young guy. The youthful equivalent of the Combover Man.

Apparently some people seem to think that the Synapse TF is the greatest storytelling ever.

Purely talking IMO here, but GR was great. Awesome storylines, very well written, overall just good writing. But then we kept getting storylines that decreased in quality drastically (The new Well of Furies, Apex/Tin Mage having Cole use his Super Saiyan swagger to weaken everyone just to explain the Alpha slot restriction, First Ward shoehorning everyone into being Resistance Warden while killing off an NPC every other arc just for teh drama, Night Ward ('nuff said), the SSA1's horribly killing off of States and Psyche by some loser in a trench coat just to put Yin in as the new FP psychic). Then we get Dark Astoria, which had Praetoria's elements thrown into nearly all it's arcs (Talons of Vengeance, Dominatrix, Daibolique). And I24's gonna give us Marauder the Good Guy while still managing to drag out the Praetorian storyline even longer.

Then there's the realization that we've spent over two years focusing on a dimension that was doomed to be destroyed from the very beginning. All the resources that went into fleshing out Praetoria, creating this new world with new laws and new storylines and characters, could have gone into developing the main setting of the game even more; Primal Earth. Our own Hamidon could have become a legitimate threat and is attempting to become the monster it is in Praetoria. Paragon City could have been revamped to look as good as Praetoria. The GR experience could have instead been used to give players a new starting experience based around being a Hero/Vigilante/Rogue/Villain.

But instead we got two years of storylines focusing on nothing but a zone doomed to die, while the overall quality of it's stories plummeted.

Just because you're tired of an aspect of the game lore doesn't mean the quality of writing was bad. You list Dark Astoria as an example, and yet even Samuel Tow admitted that the writing there was awesome.

I probs should have been more clear. I liked DA, too. I didn't like the Praetorian elements of it. They were badly written and didn't belong in Dark Astoria. Also not seeing what Sam Tow's opinion has to do with anything, but okay.

Again, your exhaustion over a piece of game lore is not a sign of "bad writing." I actually enjoyed the Dominatrix arc.

As for Sam, he's one of the more vociferous critics of the game's writing, and while I do not ever agree with him on its present quality, not even he could hate Dark Astoria.

It kind of is, actually. Dragging a story along for so long with little to no resolution is pretty lousy writing in and of itself. If a part of a story drags on for too long people grow bored and sick of it. It's the equivalent of a DBZ story arc; a whole lot of grunting but nothing going anywhere. If they could fit all the great writing and discoveries made in the RWZ arcs and TF into one issue, I'm confident Praetoria could've been wrapped up in two, tops. Especially considering we even got half issues to flesh things out a bit more.

And it's not just the exhaustion of one storyline for two years, either. Just citing a few examples, Statesman dies in his very first appearance in SSA1 by walking into the world's most obvious trap lead by a greasy, trench coat wearing magical items dealer who trained for twenty years off screen. Sister Psyche only exists to die so Manticore can brood again and Penny Yin can be the new psychic. Marauder will now be a hero and we'll all forget about all the horrible things he's done 'cause he has a good heart that was just shy when he slaughtered those people in the midwest, while Dominatrix, who actually helped fight Mot and Tyrant, will rot behind bars. And in a twist M. Night Shyamalan would be proud of, Calvin Scott isn't a vengeance driven leader that's had enough of Cole's tyranny and only cares about saving his wife no matter who dies in the process, but is instead a lunatic that made up his entire backstory and escaped from Mother Mayhem's hospital. Even though there are zero clues or hints that even attempt to allude to this massive bombshell at all throughout the Praetorian storyline.

I think the quality of writing is SO much better than it was, that I'm boggled anyone would think otherwise. The old, old arcs are all "oh, dear! Bad guys! Go zone 3 times and fight them somewhere far away!" "Go see David Wincott" "Oh, you're done! Wait! More bad guys, go zone differently, fight them!" "Go see the longbow liaison." "Good job! Oh, wait. Still more bad guys. Better hurry and zone 5 times and fight them!" "Good job. Have some enhancements! Meet your new contact!"

Now there are, like... plots and stuff.

I think perhaps we are talking at cross-purposes. You may be of the Sam Tow School of Good Writing, which says (if I am paraphrasing properly) if the story doesn't mesh coherently with past stories, then it's bad writing? I don't know, I'm guessing here.


(Tangent below...)


I look at this (and most arguments in the forums) as that there are 2 major ways of thinking about the game, which clash on a regular basis. One way of thinking of the game is what I (very erroneously, and chock full o' flaws) think of as "Math/Science/Tech Majors" and the other is "Liberal Arts Majors". The Math/Science/Techie guys want immutable facts, upon which to base everything else that follows. Two plus two needs to equal four, and when you start changing this, our rockets don't work, plus our computers blow up, and well, this is very, very bad for space-time continuum reasons I don't get because I am a Liberal Arts Major. So, this way of thinking wants Lore to be written in stone, and reserved as Canon. Period (This guy is ALSO thinking "if it's chock full o' flaws, why are you posting it - SHUT UP!).

Liberal Arts people view "lore" as a verbal tradition passed down from generation to generation, and has some fact, but also a lot of nebulous other not-so-factual stuff, which is why it's "lore" and not "history." "Canon" is reserved for the Bible, which is also a place the tech-minded can argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and leave the rest of us in peace. Liberal Arts sorts tend to view "lore" in game terms as a good place to start, and if the new stuff isn't quite fitting with the older stuff, just go back and fix the older stuff if there is time, *shrug* who cares? And if anyone brings up Canon, they sputter about "CANON?! But..but... it's a made up GAME!" and eventually, after much arguing, go beat their heads against a wall because who on earth thinks it matters, and what happened to the whole pin argument that was supposed to keep these people occupied? (But some of these people might see what I'm trying to get at, even if it's inept, and despite being poorly worded, might have something interesting to at least think about.... Maybe. We're liberal arts people, after all, and aren't into absolutes.)

Obviously, my particular categorization doesn't even work in this one single thread, since Sam is a writer, which is as liberal arts as it's possible to be (But doggone it, I will maintain until the end that he is a TECHNICALLY MINDED writer!). It seems apparent that, at this point, the writers/devs are at more of a "Liberal Arts" state of mind (um, despite the fact that they're mostly, um, Techies) when writing the game.

It might be (I don't know) more efficient to ask the devs to please pay attention to story continuity, because it's an important part of the game for many players. That's a completely reasonable request. And if enough people are saying this same thing, then it's likely that it would be taken more seriously as something that is important to a significant portion of the player base.

Getting hot under the collar and complaining about "bad writing" (when it's clearly much improved), "but...but... THE CANON, man, the CANON!" is probably less effective, and might actually muddy the message. Not because the message is wrong, but because they may not be hearing what it is you're actually trying to say.

Anyway, the purists are gonna clash with the generalists, just like the min/maxers will clash with the conceptualists, unless, or until, we realize there are some different, very basic schools of thought going on behind the opinions being stated. At least, this is my operating theory, until a better one presents itself.

(End tangent)

(EDIT: This was written before Xzero45 clarified his statements, so apologies for not understanding what he designated "bad writing." In any case, the tangential comments were not to him in particular, in case that was not clear.)

Actually that's not an improvement on writing, but gameplay design. Which I definitely agree has gotten WAY better over the years. Old arcs can be a pain to run with fed ex missions and kill-alls, and it just gets boring. Mechanically speaking, new stuff is leaps and bounds more fun and interesting.

But that doesn't mean the writing itself was bad, or has improved. Old school writing gave us Frostfire and his Outcasts, the Igneous living below the Hollows, the Superadine circuit and gang wars between Skulls/Hellions, the Crey conspiracies where you discover just how Paragon Protectors are made, Dr. Vhazilok and his insane methods of "benefiting the human race", Malta's influence on the world, everything involving the original cosmic threat Rularuu and the Shadow Shard, etc. And CoV proceeded to step up the game so much by removing those pesky fed-exes and fleshed out the storylines even more. "Oh Wretched Man!" has got to be one of the coolest, deepest arcs, and people still to this day hate Westin Phipps with such a passion for being a disgusting human being.

I totally get what you're saying, though. But the old writing wasn't bad, it was just muddled by bad gameplay.

Yeeeeeeeah.....sure they couldn't.

Uh huh.

Well, your personal motivations are yours alone to know.
It's more plausible than your previous two assertions, anyway.

It's great how people keep people keep pretending I've said things that I've never said.

Yeah, well, except nobody's saying that.

Window dressing and storylines are important.
They are vastly *less* important than structural game systems, and much more flexible and resilient. They can tolerate major changes without the bulk of the playerbase even noticing.


And I'll opt to continue not buying your highly implausible story about the "multitude" of friends who "just can't get back into the swing of the game" because of how deplorable the writing has suddenly gotten.

As if it's ever been Pulitzer material.

------->This is is my opinion on it and is not an insinuation that it should be or suppose to be everyone opinion, or saying it should be changed immediately. It's just merely my thoughts on it.<-----

I like it better than the CoT redesign, but some the hairstyles/clothes look a bit silly. The new masks are ok and glad to see some other gender in there. Although, silly hair and all, I'm glad they are finally giving the skulls some love.

Originally Posted by mauk2 Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words. "Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L!

Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, bud. Doubt you'd care even if I handed you their personal phone numbers and told you to call them up yourself, though. Also not an excuse to be an *** about it, considering I'm not being one to you.

Sorry, I've got enough imaginary friends of my own to keep in line.

Well think about it like this, if you can't wrap your head around why someone might actually quit over consistently bad writing. There's an entire community in this game dedicated to Roleplaying and immersing their characters in the world of CoH. When that world starts getting shaken or bad plotlines are introduced, it can make some RPers lose interest in that world and want to find a new one, in a new game that treats writing with a little more respect.

And even then, some players on these boards aren't heavy RPers at all and still bring up viable complaints against writing just because they enjoy a good story and came to CoH for one. If the writing blows, it's not like CoH is a unique MMO. May as well pack up and find a new one that has what you're looking for; better writers.

Really? Interesting, considering that I actually like long stories. Any other absolutisms you want to throw at us?

I've debated this numerous times before, so if you bother to search, you'll maybe find the various posts I've made that highlighted the clues. Needless to say, just because you didn't notice them didn't mean they weren't there. I had always thought of Calvin Scott as being a nut job because of such.

*Raises hand*


I absolutely and utterly despise it with every fiber of my being (the male version, the female one is just "eh" to me).

To borrow an uncouth, but illustrative phrase from the internet... It makes me "throw up in my mouth a little" just seeing it.

@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

If I RP'd and I depended upon the game for every story my characters experienced, I would have quit a very long time ago.

Goat... Plot, story and good writing are a major part of the game. Maybe not to YOU, I'll grant you that much, but the people who care about this are not few and far in-between. Just because you don't care for it, and have made it a point to state and restate that every chance you get, doesn't mean slipping writing quality should be excusable.

I don't care about badges. If they disappeared from the game overnight, I would not bat an eye. Don't give a toss about the things. But if badges started getting bugged and not awarding, I wouldn't really see a problem with people getting upset about it. If Issues went by with no new ones being added and people were dissatisfied with that, I'd understand. I wouldn't really mind it since those things hold no value for me, but I recognise that this is a big thing for some in the community.

Couple of points:

1. That's not a binary choice. You don't either integrate all of your characters in the story completely or ignore the story with all your characters completely. I find it's best to work with canon and meet it half-way, to where your characters are still your own, and yet still make sense to exist in City of Heroes by its internal rules. You don't have to be a slave to canon, but you also don't have to ignore it completely.

2. Good stories are never wasted and never a bad thing. They serve to make the game more entertaining and immersive, as well as to inspire. Many of the characters I own now started life as inspiration to do with something I'd seen in the actual game - a cool story, an awesome character, an unusual take on a common theme. A game written with thought and imagination fosters an atmosphere of creativity because it helps people care. That's never a bad thing, even for people who adamantly refuse to care, because you can still always ignore it. But it's important that there's something there when we choose to NOT ignore it.

---

The funny thing here is I'm one of the harshest critics of our writers, and I've probably insulted their intelligence quite badly on multiple occasion. But to me, insisting that the game's story doesn't matter and for all the care, attention and imagination our writers put into the game, they're just wasting their time and we'll mock them for even trying... To me, that's far more disheartening than calling them bad. Sure, being called a "hack" is hurtful, but at least it means you made someone care enough to be emotionally invested. Telling someone you don't value their effort in the slightest is, to me, considerably worse.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I love how your retorts are either hollow one-liners or "nobody does/says this because I say so." You don't need to be such a jerk about someone disagreeing with you. Are you mad at us for talking about the Skulls? Did we offend your sensibility somehow?

Hey, at lest when I post threads I manage to get them in the appropriate forum.

The pretense that these kinds of minor 'lore' alterations have any impact on the playerbase beyond a tiny minority is ludicrous, and yes that does offend my sensibilities.

By all means sound off about it, but don't expect me to rise and cheer your vital commitment to upholding the ONE TRUE WAY as embodied by Jack Emmert's grease-stained folder of original notes.

The notion that current developers should be beholden to 'canon' in any but the most general sense is silly. Silliness surpassed only by the notion that anyone cares about this stuff enough to quit teh game over it.

Please note that I am not saying storytime frou frou isn't important to the ambiance of a game world and isn't one factor in the greater accumulation of Player Enjoyment. It is.

But if strict adherence to 'canon' made any difference to the bottom line the devs would pay MUCH closer attention to it.

They don't, so I'm comfortable with continuing to assume that reality skews in favor of my position over the lore contingent.

Nethergoat argues the pessimist/pragmatist position well.

obTrope, since Venture isn't here:
They Just Didn't Care

The thing is that this shouldn't really cost anything to accomplish, or at least not cost much. Even if our writers aren't as knowledgeable as rabid lore hounds and can't quote contact dialogue off memory, that's what ParagonWiki is and, worse come to worst, that's what Beta should be for. Seriously, why not post a storyboard for an upcoming arc and run it by Beta-going players to make sure you haven't gotten any of the canon completely wrong?

Why I and others are so galled at crappy canon discontinuity isn't because it's somehow a huge crime and a travesty against art, but rather because these are usually very simple mistakes that would have been cleared up by even a basic understanding of the game's existing canon. Again - Reichsman. His bio is on the site. How do you make a TF about him without so much as reading THAT?

To me, canon discontinuity is a lot like that warehouse bug where walls are intermittently green and white by sections because the textures are messed up and swapped around. Sure, it doesn't make the game unplayable and many people probably don't notice it at this point, but it makes the game look cheap, rushed and unprofessional. And it's not something that's monumentally costly to get right the first time.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.