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Having played a grand total of one controller, I can't speak to the specific question you asked. But this part I can comment on.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
A defender who chooses Empathy as a primary seems to be expected to predominantly use the primary and pitch in a bit here and there with the secondary. Fair enough, that's always been what I've thought.
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I rolled an Empathy/Energy defender shortly after I started playing. A couple years later she was still only level 30, probably a third of that due to the nemesis invasions a couple months back. So all this time I've been laboring under the idea that what you said was right... empathy defenders are expected to primarily heal/buff, and only contribute in other ways if it doesn't take away from that role. Because it had always seemed they were less effective at handling the combat side of things on their own.
However. About a week ago I decided to reroll her as Empathy/Water. She hit 19 by the end of the first day, and 22 in the very short time I've played her since. About four levels' worth came from the Rikti invasions, sure, but the rest came from solo street sweeping. I found that with just a few inspirations I could reliably take on spawns with +3 and +4 bosses in them. Even took on +5s a couple times. Soloing with an Empathy defender. If I were to follow common logic and sideline her combat capabilities to focus on healbuffing, I'd be drastically short-changing my team.
What this taught me was, you should never believe that what people expect to be true is always going to be true. So if someone tries to tell you there's only one proper way to build or play a character, just plain don't listen. Cause in this game that's simply not the case.
I think what you're seeing is people who have a very clear idea of how they like to play. (Or people who have NO idea and are just going by what others say.) And it works so well for them and their playstyle that they develop this false sense of duty, thinking they must pass on their wisdom to anyone they see doing it differently. Whether or not that advice is asked for, welcomed, or even valid. These are the kind of people that I like to say "have a nice day" to and then walk away from.
Also, blasters ARE crazy for going into melee. That's what makes it fun!
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My main is an empathy/archery defender and *I* don't have Absorb Pain. It's totally situational and unnecessary 99% of the time, when Heal Other+Healing Aura will provide almost as much healing without the caster debuff.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Is a controller skipping Absorb Pain that much of a faux pas?
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As long as you don't skip Fortitude, the auras, and Adrenaline Boost, I don't care what else you take. Those four powers are the powers that you take Empathy for! And as long as you're doling them out *fairly* soon after they recharge, I don't care what else you do during a fight. "If you're not going to take them, or you're not going to use them, why did you take Empathy?" is my reasoning.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Idiots telling other people how to play their "healers" for maximum heal? Is that back again? There is no experience requirement or IQ test to get into a public channel.
Time for the old, old song that I can't find the original of:
We need a healer!
We need a healer for the rest of the night!
And she's gotta have rez
And she's gotta TP
And she's gotta hang back from the fight...
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So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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First off, Empathy is s secondary for Controllers, not a Primary as you stated in the bolded part above.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
I am puzzled.
A defender who chooses Empathy as a primary seems to be expected to predominantly use the primary and pitch in a bit here and there with the secondary. Fair enough, that's always been what I've thought. However, with a controller who chooses Empathy as a primary, the expectation seems to be the reverse. I have seen some folks ridiculed in public channels for being a controller who focuses on the primary and only choosing certain powers from the secondary. I can understand a melee toon wanting/expecting certain buffs. I know I quite like Adrenaline Boost, and Fortitude is ok for some of the more challenging mobs. The Recov and Regen Auras are also nice. But, seriously expecting someone with emp secondary to get every secondary power? Is that the expectation? Sometimes I don't get every primary power with my melee toons - choosing fight pool and leadership for maneuvers - yet, I've never had any support toons fuss at me for not getting one power over another. (although, I don't think I've ever passed up fire shield or burn on any of my fiery armor toons.) I've played an empath defender before to level 50+3 with t-4 in all and never had anyone take an issue for me leaving absorb pain out. Yet, I play my controller and it seems to be a different story. I do know that with some powersets, there are powers that most folks who "know what they are doing" consider must haves, and that others are skippable. I also know that some players think a blaster is crazy for going into melee (to use Drain Psyche, for example) when the AT is designed to be played at range. Me, I think Drain Psyche is awesome. I know that for a fire tank or */fire brute, the idea of skipping burn after issue 18 seems ludicrous to me. Is a controller skipping Absorb Pain that much of a faux pas? |
Second, who cares what other players say about your power choices?
Are you having fun playing the character? If yes, go to next question, if not then stop playing it, rework the build or reroll as something you find fun.
Are you effective with how you play your character (not according to someone else's standards but according to your own standards)? If yes, go to next question, if not then stop playing it, rework the build or reroll as something you find fun.
Why are you bothering to let other people's comments about YOUR character or the way you play YOUR character affect you?
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
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If it were Fiery Aura or Ice blast, I wouldn't give it a moment's thought. |
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Why are you bothering to let other people's comments about YOUR character or the way you play YOUR character affect you?
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My current Emp/elec defender got it's tier 4's by hosting iTrials - so I would think those that might be inclined to speak about the way my emp was built might think again before commenting because I had the league star.
But, to be fair, I was gone from the game for about 4 years. The sneaky devs might have actually changed the power to where the caster debuff of absorb pain might not be such a risk. (I suppose, instead of being defensive about it, I should have asked for more clarification on whether or not it's been changed since issue 5)
Before I left CoH, Absorb Pain was never considered a make/break power choice. Unlike Fort, CM, AB and the RAs, one could pass it by and no one would worry about it. However, things do change in this game, and the patch notes don't always have everything in them. (Also, I've only recently given patch notes their due dilligence. )
For what it's worth - I have had a discussion with an advocate for AP and will make no promises, but will try to find some time to make a second build and see how it goes.
Thanks for the input/insight.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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Absorb Pain remains eminently skippable. The only reason i've taken it is for the humor value of killing my emps in non-combat areas. As far as build and play goes i agree completely with Aggelakis.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
If it were Fiery Aura or Ice blast, I wouldn't give it a moment's thought.
My current Emp/elec defender got it's tier 4's by hosting iTrials - so I would think those that might be inclined to speak about the way my emp was built might think again before commenting because I had the league star. But, to be fair, I was gone from the game for about 4 years. The sneaky devs might have actually changed the power to where the caster debuff of absorb pain might not be such a risk. (I suppose, instead of being defensive about it, I should have asked for more clarification on whether or not it's been changed since issue 5) Before I left CoH, Absorb Pain was never considered a make/break power choice. Unlike Fort, CM, AB and the RAs, one could pass it by and no one would worry about it. However, things do change in this game, and the patch notes don't always have everything in them. (Also, I've only recently given patch notes their due dilligence. ) For what it's worth - I have had a discussion with an advocate for AP and will make no promises, but will try to find some time to make a second build and see how it goes. Thanks for the input/insight. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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As a corollary, last night in LFG I saw several people demanding a "brute or tanker" for their team.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Idiots telling other people how to play their "healers" for maximum heal? Is that back again? There is no experience requirement or IQ test to get into a public channel.
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C'mon people, think outside the box!
I steamrolled the Sutter TF last night on a squad with one scrapper, two corrupters, two controllers, a blaster and a pair of defenders. We just KILLED it. FF defender, emp defender, time controller, dp/kin corrupter + my beam rifle/rad. Everyone speed boosted, everyone at the defense cap thanks to bubbles + stacked Manuevers, with Fortitude rotating around the damage dealers. RNG disasters handled by our Emp, who didn't have Absorb Pain & didn't use her aura that I noticed.
The joy of CoH is in the flexibility.
Play what you like, take powers you think are fun and ignore the haters.
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Someone asking for a tank thinks they need more aggro control and redirected damage mitigation. They may actually be correct given team composition and player experience, or they may just be incorrect due to their own inexperience. That shouldn't be judged too harshly.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
As a corollary, last night in LFG I saw several people demanding a "brute or tanker" for their team.
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However, someone demanding another player build or play a particular way can be judged more harshly because an inexperienced player should not do that, and an experienced player should know better.
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People are jerks. Big surprise.
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@Starflier
There's a reason I never play empathy, and it has nothing to do with whether I like the set or not. It has everything to do with what other people will tell your or expect of you.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
I tend to pick Absorb over heal other on my controllers, but so far all my /emps have been something with a confuse. I'd rather have the extra cheap heal for emergencies.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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A controller CAN NOT take empathy as their primary. They can only take it as a SECONDARY.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
A defender who chooses Empathy as a primary seems to be expected to predominantly use the primary and pitch in a bit here and there with the secondary. Fair enough, that's always been what I've thought.
However, with a controller who chooses Empathy as a primary, the expectation seems to be the reverse. |
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| I have seen some folks ridiculed in public channels for being a controller who focuses on the primary and only choosing certain powers from the secondary. |
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| But, seriously expecting someone with emp secondary to get every secondary power? Is that the expectation? |
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| I've played an empath defender before to level 50+3 with t-4 in all and never had anyone take an issue for me leaving absorb pain out. |
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| Yet, I play my controller and it seems to be a different story. |
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| I do know that with some powersets, there are powers that most folks who "know what they are doing" consider must haves, and that others are skippable. |
In case you missed it, let me reiterate that some players are STUPID and should not be listened to.
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Oopsie - fixed that - thanks for the correction.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
A controller CAN NOT take empathy as their primary. They can only take it as a SECONDARY.
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"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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Not in the least. I have yet to convince myself that Absorb Pain is worth while taking on my Emp. If you're applying the buffs and the team is playing smart, you should rarely have to heal anyway, much less use AP.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Is a controller skipping Absorb Pain that much of a faux pas? |
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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This couldnt have been said any better.
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Originally Posted by Triplash
What this taught me was, you should never believe that what people expect to be true is always going to be true. So if someone tries to tell you there's only one proper way to build or play a character, just plain don't listen. Cause in this game that's simply not the case. I think what you're seeing is people who have a very clear idea of how they like to play. (Or people who have NO idea and are just going by what others say.) And it works so well for them and their playstyle that they develop this false sense of duty, thinking they must pass on their wisdom to anyone they see doing it differently. Whether or not that advice is asked for, welcomed, or even valid. These are the kind of people that I like to say "have a nice day" to and then walk away from. Also, blasters ARE crazy for going into melee. That's what makes it fun! |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Oh sure, give Ironblade the credit for pointing that out.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
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I'm sure it wasn't the first line of my post.
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
First off, Empathy is s secondary for Controllers, not a Primary as you stated in the bolded part above.
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If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Holy smoke. He (or she) obviously mis-spoke (mistyped? miskeyed? Whatever.) The intent wasn't unclear, and if you found it so, well, you prolly won't be able to read twixt the lines here either, so..
Yes, some sets seem to get leaned upon to do it the *right* way. It's usually support sets. Trollers and defs seem to get that treatment far more often, in my experience, than Corrs or MMs.. Kinetics and Emp are often the victim of this thought process..
The right way is always the way the player hoping/wanting support wants you to play. I suspect the thought process is that you can't possibly solo so he/she is doing you the favour by teaming with you, so you better repay perfectly...
My suggestion, just ignore the morons that aren't skilled enough to play support sets well. If they don't like how you play an emp (or whatever) tell them to make their own..
And, as a total side note, and admittedly slightly contradictorily to my above comments... I've always though Absorb Pain total awesome sauce of healing powers. I'd not skip it, even, on a support oriented emp (except on a all emp style team)... I'd skip the other heal powers first. Nothing rescues as hard as a maxed out Absorb Pain.. Well, other than a Def buff, or... OK... Nothing healish does..
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
A controller CAN NOT take empathy as their primary. They can only take it as a SECONDARY.
I would think *ANY* AT can reasonably be expected to focus on their primary - that's why it's called that. If you're ignoring it to focus on your secondary, you picked the wrong AT. Of course, that doesn't justify someone being a build Nazi. Only from stupid people. But who cares what they expect. Or think. I have NEVER taken Absorb Pain on any character, whether empathy was primary or secondary. Only if you listen to stupid people. Absorb Pain is one of the skippable ones. Eminently so. In case you missed it, let me reiterate that some players are STUPID and should not be listened to. |
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I'm not gonna grief ya for pointing that out, since you acted like a normal person, not an incensed maniac. Try not to be offended. But, I DO acknowledge that you won the 1st nitpick contest...
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Oh sure, give Ironblade the credit for pointing that out.
I'm sure it wasn't the first line of my post. |
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Originally Posted by Evil_Legacy
This couldnt have been said any better.
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I agree. Triplash's comments should be Stickied on a forum somewhere. Like a 'how to play this game for newcommers and others totally unaware of CoHs dynamics' forum or some such.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Not in the least. I have yet to convince myself that Absorb Pain is worth while taking on my Emp. If you're applying the buffs and the team is playing smart, you should rarely have to heal anyway, much less use AP.
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I don't often disagree with ya, so I'm surprised here...
First, though. I don't find any Emp power totally unskippable, but if I had to pick one, it'd be Fort.
But, even a Fortless emp, well played, will be a huge asset to his team... So I have no *you must take X expectations*.
But, I am a bit surprised at your logic, Rangle. It's like telling a Rad/ def to skip their heal, since if you're using RI well, you won't get hit. Or telling every melee type to skip their t9 or their self rez, since, well, you won't need it if things go well. Just because you won't always need it, doesn't mean that things never go against the odds, or against you. Having a nice, or even excellent fall back choice isn't ever a bad plan. It's only bad if you skipped something better to get it.. And 'better' here is very much open to debate.
With respect,
Maddie
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Ok...apparently, I am supposed to be literate too! You guys ask too much! |
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Oh sure, give Ironblade the credit for pointing that out.
I'm sure it wasn't the first line of my post. |
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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Literacy. Bah! Who cares!? No value in that anyway....|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Ok...apparently, I am supposed to be literate too! You guys ask too much!
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(ok, not really, but to the percent that it is true, it is because people don't read what ya post anyhow. Or only the line they wanna get up in arms about)
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Uhm... I'm confused. You say you don't often agree with me, then you go off to disagree in your statement? Seems rather contradictory. |
Originally Posted by Madadh
I don't often agree with ya, so I'm surprised here...
First, though. I don't find any Emp power totally unskippable, but if I had to pick one, it'd be Fort. But, even a Fortless emp, well played, will be a huge asset to his team... So I have no *you must take X expectations*. But, I am a bit surprised at your logic, Rangle. It's like telling a Rad/ def to skip their heal, since if you're using RI well, you won't get hit. Or telling every melee type to skip their t9 or their self rez, since, well, you won't need it if things go well. Just because you won't always need it, doesn't mean that things never go against the odds, or against you. Having a nice, or even excellent fall back choice isn't ever a bad plan. It's only bad if you skipped something better to get it.. And 'better' here is very much open to debate. With respect, Maddie |
I think you're think you're taking the analogy too far. (Absorb Pain isn't a t9 power to begin with.) In some cases I won't take my t9 power. I won't take unstoppable on my soft capped Inv tanks. I don't have the self rez on my fire tank. I do have my t9 on my Nrg/ice blaster, etc. (I'm still trying to decide WHY I took Force Bubble along with Repulsion Field on my FF.) All varying choices, and somethings won't get shoehorned into my planned builds. But that's neither here, nor there.
Don't get me wrong, Absorb pain is a great heal in it's own way. On my Emp defender I find the idea of, well, self mutilation to heal someone else unappealing in a subconscious way. I don't mind the minor tics of damage I get when running Oppressive Gloom on my Time/DP, or even my Dark Tanks. I'll even jump headlong into a mob to try and heal/help someone even if it might kill me, but I just can't convince myself to take Absorb. So, there you go.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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As well you should be. |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Uhm... I'm confused. You say you don't often agree with me, then you go off to disagree in your statement? Seems rather contradictory.
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Totally contradictory...
I *think* I said disagree, and mistyped it, and edited it really fast. One would assume, WAY too fast.
Either way, I buggered it up, and have fixed it now. Sorry for making things all confusing...
Please read that as 'I don't often disagree'. I'll edit it to make sure I don't confuse other folks, too. Sorry.
Point being, I often find myself agreeing with ya, and on the same page, but here... Well...
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| I think you're think you're taking the analogy too far. |
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| (Absorb Pain isn't a t9 power to begin with.) In some cases I won't take my t9 power. I won't take unstoppable on my soft capped Inv tanks. I don't have the self rez on my fire tank. |
{I think that might prove my point (or at least well support it) on me agreeing with ya often.}
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I do have my t9 on my Nrg/ice blaster, etc. (I'm still trying to decide WHY I took Force Bubble along with Repulsion Field on my FF.) All varying choices, and somethings won't get shoehorned into my planned builds. But that's neither here, nor there. \
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| Don't get me wrong, Absorb pain is a great heal in it's own way. On my Emp defender I find the idea of, well, self mutilation to heal someone else unappealing in a subconscious way. I don't mind the minor tics of damage I get when running Oppressive Gloom on my Time/DP, or even my Dark Tanks. I'll even jump headlong into a mob to try and heal/help someone even if it might kill me, but I just can't convince myself to take Absorb. So, there you go. |
It sorta bothers me that the downside, 'penalized' powers seem to be getting edited out. Wonder how they'll redo Absorb Pain. Maybe a -recovery?
I am puzzled.
A defender who chooses Empathy as a primary seems to be expected to predominantly use the primary and pitch in a bit here and there with the secondary. Fair enough, that's always been what I've thought.
However, with a controller who chooses Empathy as a secondary, the expectation seems to be the reverse.
I have seen some folks ridiculed in public channels for being a controller who focuses on the primary and only choosing certain powers from the secondary.
I can understand a melee toon wanting/expecting certain buffs. I know I quite like Adrenaline Boost, and Fortitude is ok for some of the more challenging mobs. The Recov and Regen Auras are also nice.
But, seriously expecting someone with emp secondary to get every secondary power? Is that the expectation?
Sometimes I don't get every primary power with my melee toons - choosing fight pool and leadership for maneuvers - yet, I've never had any support toons fuss at me for not getting one power over another.
(although, I don't think I've ever passed up fire shield or burn on any of my fiery armor toons.)
I've played an empath defender before to level 50+3 with t-4 in all and never had anyone take an issue for me leaving absorb pain out. Yet, I play my controller and it seems to be a different story.
I do know that with some powersets, there are powers that most folks who "know what they are doing" consider must haves, and that others are skippable.
I also know that some players think a blaster is crazy for going into melee (to use Drain Psyche, for example) when the AT is designed to be played at range. Me, I think Drain Psyche is awesome. I know that for a fire tank or */fire brute, the idea of skipping burn after issue 18 seems ludicrous to me.
Is a controller skipping Absorb Pain that much of a faux pas?
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase