I24: Switch Boxing or Kick with Tough

One of the much-appreciated goals of Issue 24 is to make Pool Powers more fun and useful to a wider variety of characters. Prerequisites are being changed in Travel powers to work like APPs (1/2, 3/4, 5). Also, several changes are being made to the Fighting pool (as well as many others) to accomplish that goal.

The current changes, courtesy ParagonWiki, are:

Fighting

• Cross-Cut added as a fifth power (very similar to Sweeping Cross in Street Justice)
• Brawl, Boxing, Kick and Cross-Cut all have increased effects based on the number of Fighting pool attacks you own.

I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

I would personally prefer to have Boxing and Kick merged into the same power, with either a punch or a kick animation available via power customization, and something added to the set that's NOT an attack to serve as a gate for the toggles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Would I like this change if it was implemented ? Yes, because all but one of my chars who have Tough & Weave have taken Boxing only to open up the pool.
Not having to take Boxing (or Kick) would mean one more power choice for all of them.

And this reeks of power creep. That's why I think such a change shouldn't happen.
We can't six slot everything, we can't have every power and sometimes even a "power tax" like this sounds reasonable.

I'd be curious to see some datamining on how (in)frequently boxing/kick are used. For that matter, on how often these powers even end up in the power tray.

EDIT: Challenge from the Presence pool was deemed so bad the devs were willing to break the cottage rule to make it useful. The reason for its lack of utility? The ATs likely to dip into this power pool already have access to a better choice in their primary, the other ATS have little to no need for an aggro magnet. Boxing/Kick seem to fit that same lack of utility, meatshields going into Fighting for access to Tough/Weave already have plenty of superior attack choices, the squishies don't need a mediocre melee attack when they're seeking damage mitigation.

I'd see this argument as more for making Boxing/Kick actual worthwhile choices and less about skipping them entirely. The I24 changes look like a step in the right direction but I suspect those 2 powers would need even more of a boost to become desirable options.

Boxing at least looks likely to end up with higher DPA than many tanker attacks if you take the whole set.

Likewise, Defenders should get higher DPA than from their secondary attacks.

I think the way powers are chosen has been broken from the beginning.

I dunno, when I make an ice character-- I hate the idea of taking powers outside of ice based powers. Some people love to mix and match, I get it.....

...but there should be options to keep your character's powers in the same vein as their main power. Just a sort of branching out. Maybe even just graphical: like "Boxing" but with a big ice fist as an alternate animation.

I think power pools need reworked and expanded, so I'm all for it.

I think we also need more slots as well (I know, it broke the game when they tried.) Power creep or not....more powers to use in different situations is better than using 3 buttons mashed over and over.

I would love to see this change. It would free up a power pick on all of my 50s and make build planing easier.

Which is why don't think we are going to. If the current "Cost of Entrance" to Tough/Weave is a wasted power pick and people, lots of people, are still willing to pay that to get those powers I don't think their going to remove that "cost".

yea it is pretty lame that i have to pick a power that i will NEVER use just to get the tough and weave buff. a change should be made

I want to comment on the notion that taking powers is a "cost." This is just backwards design. Levelling up is a MAJOR part of the MMO reward system. It's when we get new stuff, grow more powerful and are, above all else, the most excited. New power picks should be things we WANT. To make taking a new power a cost is to take the fun out of training up, and THAT can take the fun out of playing altogether. I've burned out on this game many times, and every time it's been just after levelling up and taking something which fails to impress me. Maybe I lost patience for 32 and the T9 primary power, or maybe I got to a place where the next could of levels of slots aren't that important, but the point of it is that without the "morale boost" of levelling up, the game grows stale, and fast.

I don't disagree with tiering powers and locking them behind each other. That's part of the path of progression. You start with smaller powers and proceed on to the bigger ones. But this doesn't mean those powers are "costs," so much as they're just a step. You want each step to be meaningful so the player can be motivated at every step of the way. If that means skipping a step people hate, then what it really means is it's a gate you shouldn't have put in the first place.

Boxing and Kick are powers that are primarily a cost and almost never a benefit. They're not good enough to slot heavily, but the actual strong powers of the pool are locked behind them, so we waste a power pick to get these. But it's the game's own design that makes these powers bad. With so many sets having internal gimmicks - Momentum, Combos, Forms, etc. - pool attacks that don't benefit from those and don't contribute to them are that much less useful. Yes, that's also true of some Epics, but I've yet to see an epic that forces me to take an attack before I can take anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I doubt they will change the order that you pick them, I think an increase tothe damage Boxing and Kick do along with an increase in either the duration, mag of the mez that they do should be fine.

Right now, Boxing and Kick are just mules for Kinetic Combat. Other ATs that are melee have a better choice and ranged ATs should get something in return for going melee, increasing the damage or secondary effects might make it worth it.

When the change was made to allow travel powers to be selected at level 4, it was possible for a time to do this for ALL POOLS. Predictably, Tough and to a lesser extent, Aid Self became no brainer picks for just about everyone. Hence, it went back to the way it was.

It's not so much that it's overpowered, but that it makes Tough just too attractive a choice. They didn't want to be in the position that they found themselves in with Fitness where you either take Tough or were considered a bad player.

Well of course I'd like it. But should it happen? No.

I haven't had a problem with the current implementation. It's been annoying on very few of my characters, but the ones where I chose Boxing or Kick in order to get Tough and had no intention of using Boxing or Kick, well, the power choices at that level weren't desired anyway.

Besides, you never know when you'll get to do something nifty, like slotting a Knockback PROC into Boxing so you're sending enemies flying with a gut check...

I dislike having to take boxing/kick to get to tough/weave, but I deal with it because it hasn't really affected too many of my builds in a huge way.

Usually slot a Razzle Dazzle proc in it on my melee toons and my ranged toons just don't use it.

I'd like to see it - I'm one of those that doesn't even bother putting Boxing in the tray, and only rarely put slots in to use it as a set mule. I'd rather see a different utility power option instead of just moving Tough down a tier, though, and if they were swapped you'd still need to take one of the attacks to get Weave since you need two powers from the pool to get it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.