I24: Switch Boxing or Kick with Tough
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-08-08 06:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Thus, it is more chance that Tough will be granted automatically than it will be switched with boxing.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Well, the "cost" of getting Stamina was two power picks and look at where we are now. Never say never unless the developers say never, and then even they might change their minds.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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As I stated in the OP, I24 is changing pool prerequisites to worklike APP/PPPs according to the coffee talks. That means the first two powers are available at 4, taking one power opens up the next two, and taking two powers opens up the fifth one.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I'd like to see it - I'm one of those that doesn't even bother putting Boxing in the tray, and only rarely put slots in to use it as a set mule. I'd rather see a different utility power option instead of just moving Tough down a tier, though, and if they were swapped you'd still need to take one of the attacks to get Weave since you need two powers from the pool to get it.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
The real problem with moving Tough up is that it is like giving 70% of the player base a free power pick. Plus this is hardly the only power pool with this problem. If you made heal self a 1st level pick you would see it taken a lot. Same for Fear.
You can already pick pretty much all the powers in your sets we don't need additional power selections as it just makes everyone even more generic. (unless the new power pool powers are really, really good, so good people start dropping their regular powers for them. Example if Afterburnner didn't require 3 picks it could be very sweet.
What is needed is another power tacked into every power set. (yes that would be a big job) but then things like this could be done without making power choices virtually meaningless since you get most everything anyway.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
I'd like to see all the power pools changed to only two tiers- choose one of the first three powers to open up the last two. I think this would lead to a lot of interesting variety and more fun.
Ive often taken, slotted and used Kick or Boxing on melee characters, in order to get to Tough. I usually replaced their Teir 1 or 2 ability, and havent suffered a noticeable drop in damage output from it.
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It's a "cost" if you want to be pedantic, but it only in the same sense that taking a day off to be with your family is a cost of time, or watching a good movie is a cost of money. Ultimately, the process of picking one power and not picking another can be perceived as a cost, but this is only good game design if what we get for this cost was actually worth it. When I pick a power I enjoy using, then there is no "cost" associated with it, because I don't experience the negative emotions associated with having paid - I only experience the positive emotions of having gotten something I wanted.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
It's actually pretty common, and taking powers IS a cost. There's no other way to view it.
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This isn't the case with junk powers, and that's the problem. You're asking me to pay a cost for something that is itself a cost to pay for the ability to pay a cost for something I actually want. Surely the flaw in this design should be self-evident. Maybe it is just to me, because I have a... "Romantic" view of gaming, in the sense that I expect every part of a game to be fun. I don't disagree that balance is needed and I don't expect that I should be allowed to have everything, but what I do hope is that even the tough decisions should still be fun. I don't pay good money for good games in order for them to hurt me or treat me with tough love. To me, both the "good" and the "bad" of a game should still be fun, because both the good and the bad are part of the gaming experience.
I will never agree that negative emotions should be used as a balancing factor, which means I don't believe people should ever be made to do something we don't want to do. I get enough of this from real life. That doesn't mean there can't be tough choices or big challenges in a game, just that "sucks to be you" and "tough cookies, deal with it" shouldn't be part of their official design.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This isn't a good argument for shifting around the power order or combining Boxing and Kick so much as it's an argument to make Boxing and Kick better, which they are doing. Whether the changes are enough to improve them remains to be seen.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's a "cost" if you want to be pedantic, but it only in the same sense that taking a day off to be with your family is a cost of time, or watching a good movie is a cost of money. Ultimately, the process of picking one power and not picking another can be perceived as a cost, but this is only good game design if what we get for this cost was actually worth it. When I pick a power I enjoy using, then there is no "cost" associated with it, because I don't experience the negative emotions associated with having paid - I only experience the positive emotions of having gotten something I wanted.
This isn't the case with junk powers, and that's the problem. You're asking me to pay a cost for something that is itself a cost to pay for the ability to pay a cost for something I actually want. Surely the flaw in this design should be self-evident. Maybe it is just to me, because I have a... "Romantic" view of gaming, in the sense that I expect every part of a game to be fun. I don't disagree that balance is needed and I don't expect that I should be allowed to have everything, but what I do hope is that even the tough decisions should still be fun. I don't pay good money for good games in order for them to hurt me or treat me with tough love. To me, both the "good" and the "bad" of a game should still be fun, because both the good and the bad are part of the gaming experience. I will never agree that negative emotions should be used as a balancing factor, which means I don't believe people should ever be made to do something we don't want to do. I get enough of this from real life. That doesn't mean there can't be tough choices or big challenges in a game, just that "sucks to be you" and "tough cookies, deal with it" shouldn't be part of their official design. |
Edit: Just because YOU don't like Boxing and Kick don't make them Always "double costs". They where, maybe, less than great melee attacks, somewhere close to a tier 1 and not as good as the attacks you might find in a melee primary(or secondary) which is kind of the point of the fighting pool. Tough and Weave aren't as good as having an actual defense or Resist primary to choose from either.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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This would only work if they weren't objectively worse than in-set attacks for a number of sets, and this discrepancy is caused by the sets themselves. Powersets like Titan Weapons, Street Justice, Dual Blades and Staff Fighting have in-set mechanics that build from in-set attacks and are used by in-set attacks, such that using out-of-set attacks actually harms your performance. I'm sure Kick and Boxing are great for characters without too much offense, such as Controllers and possibly Masterminds, but no matter how good you make them, they'll never a good choice for certain powersets.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
Edit: Just because YOU don't like Boxing and Kick don't make them Always "double costs". They where, maybe, less than great melee attacks, somewhere close to a tier 1 and not as good as the attacks you might find in a melee primary(or secondary) which is kind of the point of the fighting pool. Tough and Weave aren't as good as having an actual defense or Resist primary to choose from either.
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Moreover, this isn't a question of me liking or not liking Kick and Boxing. It's a question of me having to take a power that has nothing to do with what I want to take, just to unlock a slot. It'd be like me having to take Assault Rifle Burst or Assault Rifle Blast before I could take Solders on a Mercs Mastermind. I get that they're unified by the same theme, but I don't agree with needing to invest into one aspect of the theme that has nothing to do with the other aspect I actually want.
And if you think this isn't balanced because it makes for too many power choices, remember - we're still limited to four power pools. It's not possible to just nip the best powers from all the pools even if all of them were opened because you're not allowed to take too many pools. And I don't even necessarily disagree with power tiering, so long as it's tiered in a clever way. For instance, Fighting offers offence and protection, so to me, it makes sense to let people take it either for the offence or the protection, and it makes no sense to me to force people who want offence to take it just to get to the protection. Same with Presence - I had to get through the Taunt to get to the Fear, and this, too, has not been fixed, but at the power redundancy is less pronounced now that the single-target taunt is a single-target placate.
I'll tell you one thing - if Kick and Boxing didn't put weapons away, built combo metre, built momentum and benefited from other set gimmicks, I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with them, even if the powers were lower in terms of damage. But the design of them is just awkward, and giving me no alternative is just weird.
And again - what IS the big difference between Boxing and Kick? Because to me, they're essentially the same power available twice in a manner not too dissimilar from how the Ninja Mastermind Genin get two instances of Shuriken so they can throw it twice as fast.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No, because by selecting Mercenaries, you've already paid the cost for any power in the set, you just need to meet the level requirement at that point. What's the cost of taking Mercenaries? Not being able to take Hell on Earth, or Gang War, or Summon Swarm (that's a beast mastery power, right?).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It'd be like me having to take Assault Rifle Burst or Assault Rifle Blast before I could take Solders on a Mercs Mastermind.
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However, the cost for choosing power pools is much lower. You're allowed four of them instead of just one. So they have to increase the cost for the very desirable powers somehow.
Anymore utility power and pool won't be fighting anymore and more like "combat support" or something like that. When I first saw the changes on pool I was both sad and happy at the same time. The pool won't be changed for my katana/SR since fighting powers causes redraw and I don't really wanna bother with it but it also means there will be less changes on my build. I also just take boxing/kick to get tough and forget that they exist but looking at my current build I can't really say I have anything I want to pick over boxing for various reasons.
1) Boxing just sits there doing nothing which also means it does not consume my limited number of slots. Any other power I would decide to take will probably requires at least one more slot in it which I don't have place to share.
2) When I examplar down 20 or lower I only have 3 attacks from my primary pool and boxing along with vet powers better than nothing to have to fill the gaps in attack chain.
3) As a set mule; I am not using this but boxing can slot absolute amazement which is a set that i can't put in my kat/sr (body mastery epic with only conserve power and physical perfection becuase of end issues and concept reasons) and i can only puttwo purple sets and two ATO's (in beta) so having that 5th purple bonuses completed with it not bad and when condition in 2 happens it becomes an interesting set that helps survival on low levels.
Lastly with current changes I may make a MA toon to add new fighting pool as a whole for concept reasons and it won't at least too bad.
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I disagree. The cost of selecting a pool might be lower, but what the pool does is also considerably lower, as well. Powers in pools are already paying a cost for being in pools because they do less and cost more to use. There's no need to add further costs to them, especially when you ask players to throw away levels. That's not good design because it's not balanced. Unless you want to tell me that Team Teleport or Group Fly or Whirlwind as SO GOOD that we just can't be allowed to take them straight away.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
However, the cost for choosing power pools is much lower. You're allowed four of them instead of just one. So they have to increase the cost for the very desirable powers somehow.
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And again, you keep ignoring my point. The biggest problem here isn't how good which power is, it's that I'm forced to take powers that don't relate to what I want to take. Yes, it's exactly like being asked to take a personal attack before you can take a summon power because one has nothing to do with the other in terms of game balance. Theme should be a tool for improving the game, not a tool for inducing limitations. If the set were designed such that I still had to pay a power choice for Tough, but that power choice weren't an attack, I wouldn't complain. It would make sense. I want to take a strong defensive power, I must take a weaker defensive power first. That's what makes sense.
Suppose we gained a new powerset such as Sorcery. Now say this set had a very strong attack in it, but to get it, you needed to take a power which phases enemies similar to Detention Field. How much sense would that make? It's easy to explain it thematically - celestial powers! But the conceptual explanation would do nothing to offset the backwards power design.
As far as I'm concerned, pools shouldn't be designed around a specific concept so much as around a specific mechanic. There's a pool for being harder to spot, there's a pool for moving faster, there's a pool being tougher and so forth. This way, I can pick which aspect of my character I want to improve so as to better cover the gap between what's in my head and what my AT/Powerset combo actually accomplishes. If things must come in packages, then they need to be packages that all work towards the same end, and Fighting simply doesn't. It's two pools rolled up into one. It's a pool for attacks and a pool for protection, such that I have to take the attacks before I took the protection. It'd be kind of like having to take Teleportation before I was allowed to take Stealth - you may be able to explain it conceptually and it DOES constitute a price, but that doesn't make it good design.
Tiering Presence and Fighting as they are is a mistake. If a pool offers multiple types of meta-game advantages - multiple paths - then I should have access to both paths without having to take one before the other. Again, GOOD design would require me to take something I actually want to keep as a gate for something even better, not force me to take something the game system itself makes unusable in order to take something that end-game balance outright expects me to have.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's something that just occurred to me. In all this talk of "cost," we seem to have lost sight of the purpose that "cost" is supposed to serve. See, this is a game and it's intended to be fun, therefore power "cost" isn't intended to suck, it's intended to inform build balance. Specifically, the point of locking some powers in a set behind others isn't to keep you from having what you want, it's to give incentive to take more of a set than just a single power. You know how THAT can happen in a way that doesn't revolve around penalties? Rewards.
Funny I should mention this, because "rewards" is exactly how Fighting is now balanced. For the first time ever, I have an actual reason to take more than just the select few powers out of it that I want - the power reinforce each other. That, to me, is a far superior balancing structure, and it has the potential to offer more meaningful choices: Do I want just this one power for the sake of versatility, or do I want to invest and have stronger powers but from fewer sources? That's what I want to achieve.
I don't mind pools that require me to invest in them. I just mind pools which require me to invest into powers I'm never going to use. Instead of giving me an empty power pick to make a power "cost" more, I'd much rather have incentive to take both because both are better together than each is on its own. Again - I wouldn't mind our current "combined" approach with mutually-enhancing powers mixed with tiered power picks, if any "mechanic" a pool offered existed in at least most of its tiers. That way, I can pick something I want moderately in order to get something I want a lot, as opposed to picking something I don't want at all to get something that I'm going to feel cheated for having sunk two power picks into. No power in this game is so strong as to be worth two whole power picks.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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A good incentive imo is to just make it so Boxing/Kick was an attack worth taking (I think this of the other pool attacks as well).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's something that just occurred to me. In all this talk of "cost," we seem to have lost sight of the purpose that "cost" is supposed to serve. See, this is a game and it's intended to be fun, therefore power "cost" isn't intended to suck, it's intended to inform build balance. Specifically, the point of locking some powers in a set behind others isn't to keep you from having what you want, it's to give incentive to take more of a set than just a single power. You know how THAT can happen in a way that doesn't revolve around penalties? Rewards.
Funny I should mention this, because "rewards" is exactly how Fighting is now balanced. For the first time ever, I have an actual reason to take more than just the select few powers out of it that I want - the power reinforce each other. That, to me, is a far superior balancing structure, and it has the potential to offer more meaningful choices: Do I want just this one power for the sake of versatility, or do I want to invest and have stronger powers but from fewer sources? That's what I want to achieve. I don't mind pools that require me to invest in them. I just mind pools which require me to invest into powers I'm never going to use. Instead of giving me an empty power pick to make a power "cost" more, I'd much rather have incentive to take both because both are better together than each is on its own. Again - I wouldn't mind our current "combined" approach with mutually-enhancing powers mixed with tiered power picks, if any "mechanic" a pool offered existed in at least most of its tiers. That way, I can pick something I want moderately in order to get something I want a lot, as opposed to picking something I don't want at all to get something that I'm going to feel cheated for having sunk two power picks into. No power in this game is so strong as to be worth two whole power picks. |
Up the damage on them. Put them on par with tier 1 - 3 attacks.
That way you can replace one of the attacks you get from your offensive powerset with Boxing or Kick or have a decent one if you lack the option.
It's still suck for weapon sets due to redraw, but for most builds it could become a decent alternative.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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"Worth taking" would be if it worked within the gimmicks of sets that have those, honestly. About the only pool attack that I personally find is useful DESPITE not making use of those gimmicks is Spring Attack, and only because it's incredibly powerful. I don't foresee the same happening to Kick and Boxing.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
A good incentive imo is to just make it so Boxing/Kick was an attack worth taking (I think this of the other pool attacks as well).
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Again - this is a manufactured problem. Redraw and in-set gimmicks make out-of-set attacks inherently less good even for similar stats.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Some people find use out of it, you don't, that's different than in inherent flaw in the way something works.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"Worth taking" would be if it worked within the gimmicks of sets that have those, honestly. About the only pool attack that I personally find is useful DESPITE not making use of those gimmicks is Spring Attack, and only because it's incredibly powerful. I don't foresee the same happening to Kick and Boxing.
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| Again - this is a manufactured problem. Redraw and in-set gimmicks make out-of-set attacks inherently less good even for similar stats. |
So, basically some set combinations and ATs will get greater benefit out of these powers than others. Big deal?
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Mind quoting me on that? I mentioned unifying Fighting once, and for the rest of the time have been arguing for moving around the order of powers so I have a choice between defence and an attack, as opposed to T1 all attacks and T2 all defences.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
The fact that you keep trying to argue that the "Melee attacks and defenses" powerset be rejiggered to be "Mostly defenses and I guess maybe a melee attack because Sam values those defenses more" is just.. off.
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Yes, of course what you said I said is off. It's because I never actually said it, and even if I had, you adding your own snark to it in order to make your straw man that much more ridiculous and thus easier to defeat change the meaning of what I've been saying.
For your benefit:
There is no material difference between Kick and Boxing aside from having two copies of essentially the same attack. In a change that's ostensibly aimed at adding greater versatility to power pools, retaining two copies of the same attack seems like a mistake. I get that they're trying to reinforce themselves, but even at the best of time, Kick and Boxing are only worth swapping in-set attacks for if you don't actually have in-set attacks worth a crap, like a number of Controller prior to pets.
There is no need to tier defence behind offence when these can be added half-and-half between the first two tiers. One tier offers defence and offence, the next tier offers more defence and offence. It then becomes my choice of what combination of the two I want, which isn't there when the only choice is "get an attack first then we'll talk about it."
Enticing players to invest in a pool beyond picking a single power is done better via bonuses for having multiple powers from the pool than it is with mandatory tiering. Yes, the latter is more productive because it leaves the player no choice, but the former is more motivating because the choice is the player's to make.
Buffs stack in a way that attacks do not, because the effects of buffs build on each other up until they reach a hard cap. Attacks don't really "stack" with each other because most sets built around attacks already have enough attacks internally to fill up their entire "uptime." Beyond that, more attacks serve no purpose but to replace existing in-set attacks from the build, and considering pool attacks are deliberately designed to have worse overall stats than in-set attacks, that's never a good idea.
Yet it's melee ATs that seem to be the biggest customers for the defensive buffs from that set, considering every time I criticise Dark Astoira's Incarnate to-hit levels, I'm told to just take Weave and called names when it's revealed my melee characters didn't do so. I'm put in a position where I have to take a power that is objectively inferior to what I have in my set and that I haven't the time of day to use... To take something people who argue like you do will call me names for not taking. Lose-lose, basically.
Please, if you want to argue with me, discuss what I'm actually arguing for, rather than cropping one sentence from one post and filling in the rest with whatever's convenient for you to sarcastically put down at that particular time. If you have problem with something I've said, quote where I said it and take the time to express why you feel it's wrong. Tossing out hand-wave dismissals at straw man arguments helps nobody in any way.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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See! All the more reason to make it so the attacks are worth taking.
If a Scrapper can get a 50 DPS attack out of it instead of the under 40 DPS it currently gets now, those who take the fighting pool can at the very least decide "Okay...I can skip this attack in my Primary, that may be the better animation, and use this one instead."
It also gives a better attack to those who want a better attack than available to them, while having incentive to grab all of the fighting pool!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Oh the dream. Total customization, all kick, all punch, all shooting from the eyes, mix and match,.. when would I ever find the time to actually play.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
I agree so much.
I wish we had animation customisation. As in, if you have a power with a one second animation, you could pick any one second animation available to players in the game, pick any FX you want for it, and so on. |
Tru
Great game while it lasts.
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Ah,.. Wait, don't they have different secondaries that would stack with a characters? Is it possible you are just doing it wrong?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
For your benefit:
There is no material difference between Kick and Boxing aside from having two copies of essentially the same attack. In a change that's ostensibly aimed at adding greater versatility to power pools, retaining two copies of the same attack seems like a mistake. I get that they're trying to reinforce themselves, but even at the best of time, Kick and Boxing are only worth swapping in-set attacks for if you don't actually have in-set attacks worth a crap, like a number of Controller prior to pets. .....and... Buffs stack in a way that attacks do not, because the effects of buffs build on each other up until they reach a hard cap. Attacks don't really "stack" .... |
Tru
Great game while it lasts.
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Utterly agree with the first point. I have tough on ALL my melees and a few squishes, and not a single one has the power on a tray, and none would use it even if it somehow got a free magic lil tray of its own.|
Originally Posted by Umber
I'd be curious to see some datamining on how (in)frequently boxing/kick are used. For that matter, on how often these powers even end up in the power tray.
I'd see this argument as more for making Boxing/Kick actual worthwhile choices and less about skipping them entirely. The I24 changes look like a step in the right direction but I suspect those 2 powers would need even more of a boost to become desirable options. |
Maybe fighting should be renamed into..Survival? Fighting implies..fighting. Not really being tougher or more ninjaish. Then if people wanted, and T/W were change in postion, you could either..survive, by getting extra offence, or defence.
Also, tacking some extra damage onto kick and box, while nice, seems to me to much like a 'oh please, take and slot these previously useless powers' type gimmick.
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I suppose this is where playing a Super Strength tanker flavours my experience with the fighting pool: Both punch and kick are on par with the tier 1-2 attacks and the new Crosspunch does comparable damage to Haymaker.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
A good incentive imo is to just make it so Boxing/Kick was an attack worth taking (I think this of the other pool attacks as well).
Up the damage on them. Put them on par with tier 1 - 3 attacks. That way you can replace one of the attacks you get from your offensive powerset with Boxing or Kick or have a decent one if you lack the option. |
So I drop Air Superiority and Haymaker and pick up boxing and Crosspunch.
Just remove the prerequisites on the power pool powers and leave the level requirements; level 6, level 14, etc.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
I would love to see this change. It would free up a power pick on all of my 50s and make build planing easier.
Which is why don't think we are going to. If the current "Cost of Entrance" to Tough/Weave is a wasted power pick and people, lots of people, are still willing to pay that to get those powers I don't think their going to remove that "cost". |
Yes. No. Maybe.
They essentially did the same thing with travel powers.
This wouldn't mean much for people looking for the third tier powers as they'd still need two power picks.
Granted, if you want Weave, you're getting Boxing or Kick.
But if you just wanted/needed Tough...
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Boxing Stuns, kick does knock-down. Boxing will be more helpful combined with a set with a number of stuns, kick will be more helpful with a set with a lot of knock-down.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There is no material difference between Kick and Boxing aside from having two copies of essentially the same attack.
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| There is no need to tier defence behind offence when these can be added half-and-half between the first two tiers. One tier offers defence and offence, the next tier offers more defence and offence. It then becomes my choice of what combination of the two I want, which isn't there when the only choice is "get an attack first then we'll talk about it." |
However, say that they do make Tough a tier 1 power. It provides 5% resistance (for tanks), and if you have Boxing or Kick, it increases to 15%. Wouldn't you then still complain about having to take a power you never use to get the 15%?
If def bonuses weren't tossed out in quantities rivaling parade candy and fitness wasn't inherent I'd probably be behind moving toughness to one of the first choices. As it is though there needs to be some cost to getting tough/weave.
It's not like people don't mule kinetic combat in there anyways.