Is there going to be any non-battle Incarnate powers?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

For what it's worth, I would had liked a Hybrid that was full time but imposed a sacrifice.

I'm not even looking at the mechanics, just the general description of these (since I only unlock the slots I can solo in DA) but basically:

Using Assault or Control would lower your survivability.
Using Melee or Support would lower your damage output.

This gives a reason to stop using them, for one, keep balance a bit in check.


 

Posted

That was what I was wanting too, Starsman.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
For what it's worth, I would had liked a Hybrid that was full time but imposed a sacrifice.

I'm not even looking at the mechanics, just the general description of these (since I only unlock the slots I can solo in DA) but basically:

Using Assault or Control would lower your survivability.
Using Melee or Support would lower your damage output.

This gives a reason to stop using them, for one, keep balance a bit in check.
I would have liked a "stance" toggle as well, but to be honest if I made the stance toggle there would be no trivial way to work around the stance trade off, and I think the only times stance toggles are accepted is frankly when the players believe they can trivially work around the stance tradeoff.

The psychology of tradeoffs in City of Heroes requires that tradeoffs be covert in implementation, and consequently significant numerically. People think Hybrid is worse than it is and Build Up is better than it is. That distinction has to be understood into order to be properly manipulated.


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Posted

Well for one I would had gone for Resistable Resist debuff (it's a bit funny for me that people think they can overcome those.)

For damage... would had been interesting if there was some ant-enhancement that lowered the strenght of enhancements proportionally to enhancements you already have, plus the same for damage buffs (a damage debuff proportionate to all damage buffs you have.)

But I know what you mean. Saw it big time in the Bio thread and it still is not stopping.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I would have liked a "stance" toggle as well, but to be honest if I made the stance toggle there would be no trivial way to work around the stance trade off, and I think the only times stance toggles are accepted is frankly when the players believe they can trivially work around the stance tradeoff.
Well maybe we'll get lucky and the devs will eventually implement some alternate Hybrid trees in this manner.


 

Posted

Well I feel if they have to create some combat fluff power...it had better be something we cant already get and have some reason for it.

Like costumes, auras and other things can all be gotten in mutiple differing ways and serve no purpose for an incarnate power.....why would people waste time like that?

Now if it was something that maybe allowed the player to choose some NPC and get some special form they could transform into.....and level independent of their normal leveling...now that would be something.

Also if it was somepower that let you transport to some place totaly different...like maybe the same place the big portal in night ward doesnt send you yet or where the giant crystal in oroboros doesnt send you yet....and maybe can also send you to other places...not normaly accessible....then that would be worth something too.

Also if maybe it could summon some form of special combat pet that had its own level bar....that the player leveled through usage and the player had to take care of.....ie feed and heal and such....or else they would have to create another of the things for that slot...as the creatures death would result inthe incarnate enhancement being destroyed....
I think that would also be neat.

Right now....as many have pointed out the powers have mostly been enhancements with some copies of powers already in existence...which isnt too bad....

But i do understand wanting something you can show off....but if its something to show off it needs to be worthy of an incarnate.....and in my opinion it needs to be something that the player can use to show others....and also maybe can be enhanced......but cant be something stupid like a costume piece or something which does nothing...it needs to have a value and function to make other enviouse and deliberate in wanting to have the same thing or something else similar.

This would get those other players out there who are non-incarnates actualy maybe deciding to pay for subscriptions....but also give the same long time players that needed something to keep them busy and make them get irritated as they have to spend cash or what ever to keep that pet alive that looks so cool....or to increase that special shape shift form....so they can really go to town as a Rularuu or Banished Pantheon or knife of Vengence or something even more different.

Oh well....I play other games that kind of cash in on the things i suggested big time....they use cash shops and they literally make players play alot.....either through offering things inthe cash shops...or by the virtue some players are so cheap they will do anything to avoid that


 

Posted

Incarnate powers that grant the ability to craft a more effective version of IOs or another tradeable item, perhaps?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Incarnate powers that grant the ability to craft a more effective version of IOs or another tradeable item, perhaps?
I think the idea of an incarnate ability that allows you to make tradable crafted items would have a lot of problems. The big one being if you're going to go to the trouble of making a new set of IOs, why lock it behind Incarnate Content? Plus it has the problem of one-and-done, you do the slot on one character who then crafts stuff for your other characters.

That being said, an interesting variant on it would be an Incarnate slot that either allows you to slot special IOs or (less problematically) modifies special IOs but that has it's own set of issues related to the way enhancements work as gear in CoH compared to gear in other MMOs. Also the question becomes why tie it into a slot at all? Releasing Incarnate-Origin Enhancements would be a pretty neat feature without tying it to one of the Incarnate Slots.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Incarnate powers that grant the ability to craft a more effective version of IOs or another tradeable item, perhaps?
Hmmm, maybe open up enhancement slots on incarnate abilities. Then these enhancement slots would only be craftable by incarnate salvage.


 

Posted

Everybody hates Hybrid!!!

Until the time comes when they recognize how OP it is when a League full of Hybridized players use all their T4 Hybrids at once.

Then it will be all "LFM, must be T4 Hybrid slotted!"

You know, like when they realized they can let 30 Foes stack up around Marauder because when everyone uses Judgement at once as an alpha strike, it wipes them all out.

Or, you know, when they say, "Save Lore Pets until X!"

The player base just hasn't learned how to use Hybrid yet. And when it does, the hatahs will slink away as if they never hated it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Everybody hates Hybrid!!!

Until the time comes when they recognize how OP it is when a League full of Hybridized players use all their T4 Hybrids at once.

Then it will be all "LFM, must be T4 Hybrid slotted!"

You know, like when they realized they can let 30 Foes stack up around Marauder because when everyone uses Judgement at once as an alpha strike, it wipes them all out.

Or, you know, when they say, "Save Lore Pets until X!"

The player base just hasn't learned how to use Hybrid yet. And when it does, the hatahs will slink away as if they never hated it.
Only hole in your theory is hybrid is only up for 2 minute while lore pets remain for 5 minutes and some hybrids require additional conditions that needs to be met to achieve top performance (assault need to stack up with a chance to trigger, melee requires a certain amount of enemy to be close by controls procs only works on controlled enemies, only 5 stack of support buff same person etc etc) while lore pets start attacking as soon as they arrive so no hybrid will not be used constantly as you described in here.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Until the time comes when they recognize how OP it is when a League full of Hybridized players use all their T4 Hybrids at once.

Then it will be all "LFM, must be T4 Hybrid slotted!"

You know, like when they realized they can let 30 Foes stack up around Marauder because when everyone uses Judgement at once as an alpha strike, it wipes them all out.

Or, you know, when they say, "Save Lore Pets until X!"
The problem that I have with that comparison is that not all Hybrids are the same. In the case of both Judgement and Lore all powers serve essentially the same purpose, they increase your damage. There is some difference in application but the basic principle is the same.

With Hybrid that isn't the case each tree does something completely different for the character so a cry of "everyone activate Hybrid" doesn't make much sense unless everyone has pretty much the same Hybrid.

Now if this were The MMO That Shall Not Be Named where the need to min-max exists to a higher degree we might see a situation like that. 10 people would have Support Hybrids and would alternate them. The Tankers would have Melee Hybrids and everyone else would have Assault but things don't work like that here.

Yes Hybrid is very powerful but it's not really syncronizable in the way that Judgement, Destiny and Lore are without a lot of pre-trial planning and organization that we just don't need. Maybe we will eventually see a situation where iTrials are calling for people with specific Hybrids but I really, really hope it doesn't come to that. We will not however see iTrials making a general call for people with any T4 Hybrid.

In any case the complaint most reasonable people have about Hybrid isn't that it's weak but that it's not particularly fun. While there are some people who are unrealistically hoping to get the original version of Hybrid back I think most reasonable people realize that that isn't going to happen but that doesn't mean we couldn't get something mroe interesting than the current one.


 

Posted

Personally I've never seen a call for any specific power, rather level. Even then you normally only see it on the harder trials.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Grim View Post
Personally I've never seen a call for any specific power, rather level. Even then you normally only see it on the harder trials.
Clarions is about the only specific power i see asked for.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Now if this were The MMO That Shall Not Be Named where the need to min-max exists to a higher degree we might see a situation like that. 10 people would have Support Hybrids and would alternate them. The Tankers would have Melee Hybrids and everyone else would have Assault but things don't work like that here.
Haha, poor Control. It really has no place in the iTrials sadly. Maybe they can tag AVs to take Waylay damage the way they tagged them to take Containment without having to be mezzed.

Sadly though I kind of have to agree. Support hybrid is nice but honestly is a drop in the bucket amidst leagues that already use Leadership and Destinies, not to mention soft capped IO builds. You quickly reach the point where more defense just doesn't help at all.

I could see Zombie's point in regards to Assault though, it is a very nice damage boost.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Everybody hates Hybrid!!!

Until the time comes when they recognize how OP it is when a League full of Hybridized players use all their T4 Hybrids at once.

Then it will be all "LFM, must be T4 Hybrid slotted!"

You know, like when they realized they can let 30 Foes stack up around Marauder because when everyone uses Judgement at once as an alpha strike, it wipes them all out.

Or, you know, when they say, "Save Lore Pets until X!"

The player base just hasn't learned how to use Hybrid yet. And when it does, the hatahs will slink away as if they never hated it.
Naw, I'll still hate it. And I really doubt you're fantasy will come to pass. We know how and when to use Hybrid. You might note that everyone acknowledges it has power. Doesn't mean we have to like it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Now if this were The MMO That Shall Not Be Named where the need to min-max exists to a higher degree we might see a situation like that. 10 people would have Support Hybrids and would alternate them. The Tankers would have Melee Hybrids and everyone else would have Assault but things don't work like that here.

The way Hybrid works, this will never come to pass. I just finished a Magi trial and for the majority of the trial I was at the HARD CAP for all defense, capped resists, and I was highly damaged buff, although I wasn't tracking real numbers. Lore works because it brings in a new entity with its own caps. In that way it circumvents our limitations in a way that only radial Assault does. Much of this is the result of Destiny which feels like a real Incarnate power. In games which much tighter min-maxing, another complaint against Hybrid would be that it's useless because we're at the cap for most attributes most of the time during raids.

I don't much care for the Lore Slot either, but I can't but acknowledge that it's a fantastic increase to damage and really can turn the tide. We'll never need a whole league with Hybrid. It might help a bit, but with our very powerful buffer/debuffer ATs I don't think any non-level shift Incarnate power will ever be strictly necessary.


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Posted

Honestly hybrid is probably the one incarnate power out of the bunch that I think would operate fine as an examplar tool, that is, if it worked below 45 unlike every other power.


 

Posted

I like it fine in theory.
Just don't love the bottleneck to get to it. If there were 3 or 4, or even 2 iTrials that could be run to unlock it, I'd be all over it.. With only one choice.. No thanks; I'll wait and see what other avenues I have later on..

I reject the feeling of getting railroaded.. It's not like I don't have tons of alts that I can get IOed, and incarnated up to Destiny/Lore. It's not like I have to obsess over Hybrid while there is only one path.

I'll just wait, and see what other avenues appear...

Otherwise, Hybrid seems fine to me... Not stupid OP, but not worthless by any stretch..


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend_Light View Post
Ability to ascend into instance/zone xyz? Vanity item xyz?

If nothing else, make powers that are different for each AT.
*Ability to ascend into an other teams instanced mission in a PVP state for 5 min wiping their entire team..as you chase the last squishy alive down the mission hallway and [snowball] them for 1 hp.....just to make them furiously mad and babble words (in all caps) not meant to be over broadcast!


...kidding


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Posted

Ability to enter a special room just like Ouro, but for incarnates, and it is open to both sides instead of being alignment limited, with exits to all city zones in the game, instead of most zones from one side. Then when a hero or villain tries to use the wrong exit, they get the same error message as they do in PD or similar. Then we can give it a work bench for those who still use them at incarnate level, and maybe another bench like in Vanguard for exclusive things, or perhaps just for an alternate way access the Astral/Empyrean shop without having to leave PD and make a team wait/wait till team ends to do. After that we could give it a market guy, who I don't need due to remote access.

Access to an incarnate chat.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surging_Starfall View Post
Ability to enter a special room just like Ouro, but for incarnates, and it is open to both sides instead of being alignment limited, with exits to all city zones in the game, instead of most zones from one side. Then when a hero or villain tries to use the wrong exit, they get the same error message as they do in PD or similar. Then we can give it a work bench for those who still use them at incarnate level, and maybe another bench like in Vanguard for exclusive things, or perhaps just for an alternate way access the Astral/Merit shop without having to leave PD and make a team wait/wait till team ends to do. After that we could give it a market guy, who I don't need due to remote access.

Access to an incarnate chat.
Sounds pretty cool..


 

Posted

i hope omega removes ED.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
The way Hybrid works, this will never come to pass. I just finished a Magi trial and for the majority of the trial I was at the HARD CAP for all defense, capped resists, and I was highly damaged buff, although I wasn't tracking real numbers. Lore works because it brings in a new entity with its own caps. In that way it circumvents our limitations in a way that only radial Assault does. Much of this is the result of Destiny which feels like a real Incarnate power. In games which much tighter min-maxing, another complaint against Hybrid would be that it's useless because we're at the cap for most attributes most of the time during raids.

I don't much care for the Lore Slot either, but I can't but acknowledge that it's a fantastic increase to damage and really can turn the tide. We'll never need a whole league with Hybrid. It might help a bit, but with our very powerful buffer/debuffer ATs I don't think any non-level shift Incarnate power will ever be strictly necessary.
So what I hear you say here is that Destiny (and maybe Lore) needs to be nerfed so that Hybrid can feel more powerful? That would be a suggestion I could really get behind! *obviously cheesy thumbs up*