Retaking the Rogue Isles

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Actually, I love the idea of Recluse's empire falling down around his ears because of the fallout from the Praetorian War, and this whole thing would seriously improve the player's sense of agency redside. (No more "welcome to the ranks of Arachnos, new lackey!" to deal with) The main thing that comes to mind for me is that this would basically entail a -huge- edit job on story arcs and task forces, and given the...performance...of the dev team on, say, replacing Statesman with Positron in story arcs, I'm not totally sure I trust "find and replace" with this.

(Positron's granddaughter indeed.)

Heck, even throw a couple wailers inside. Just a couple spawns of individual minions, easy pickings for anyone of any AT who logs back into the facemaker unaware of the changes, but enough to convey that "Hey, yeah, this is why they moved out."

Oh lordy, Sam...
Look at what ya done...

I28: Rogue Isles Revamp

Otherwise, some interesting ideas there, Sam. I like the concept of the PO/Cap makeovers. I'm just concerned about some of the contact Storylines in Cap. Mainly Marshal Brass & Wheeler's Arcs.
While Wheeler's Arc isn't the greatest, it does have some fun stuff to it and you get some good action through it as well. And Brass's Arc is a solid way of getting Ouro access in the teens. (Beyond someone opening up a portal). As well as giving back story on that crazy Prof...

Thank you for the time...

Oh, crap! AEON IS MUSASHI! RUN, SAMMY! RUN!

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

Pretty much summed up my thoughts about this idea to a T. I would rep you if I could.

That's his serious face.

I would say that this set-up moves Arachnos to the realm of realistic threat. Now we just get told that they control everything and we should be really, really scared of them, but the missions and content really fly in the face of that assumption and it raises questions. We go against them on so many occasions, like Sam said, why do they put up with it? The Project Destiny excuse only carries so much weight. Coming from this angle, it would make more sense, they would have to let you become more of a threat to warrant the man power to deal with you. One thing that could be done as well is to increase Arachnos attacks or recruitment into Paragon, that could help keep Arachnos as a more proactive enemy group.

Sorry, but your level 10 thats gold side is just going to have to stay there.

I'm working from the standpoint that Arachnos itself is failing. Based on Recluse's terrible management of the Rogue Isles, I've always seen Arachnos as living on borrowed time. Infighting between Arachnos agents is not just tolerated but encouraged, the Rogue Isles are in terrible condition when it comes to infrastructure so they can't be generating that much economic power and there are only so many bases you can "afford to lose" before you start running out. Recluse is throwing money away on vanity projects that consistently fail to pay off, he's throwing men away to "test" the Destined ones, he's throwing facilities and equipment away because it's OK, and now he's throwing massive amounts of resources into several ongoing wars at once. A large continental power with a massive loyal population and working industry would struggle to cope with this, and after seven years, Arachnos really ought to be on its last leg.

Say what you will about Tyrant, but the man knows how to run a country, and even he's going down in flames. If Emperor Cole can't keep his citizens loyal and his industry intact with what amounts to a docile society of sheep and clean police state, what's left for Recluse who's bleeding money, men and materials left and right and who does absolutely nothing to endear himself either to his subordinates or to his people. From its very inception, I've seen Arachnos as nothing more than a tool for Recluse, an organisation he cares nothing for, and which he is literally throwing away on his own personal vendetta against the Statesman and against Paragon City in particular. Sooner or later, the coffers have to run dry and either Recluse institutes some kind of social reform to turn the Rogue Isles into a functioning state, or he bails and lets what's left of Arachnos fall apart.

That said:

---

Mercy Island

With Arachnos losing control of virtually all other island cities of the Rogue Isles, one would think that their hold on Mercy Island - tenuous as it was to begin with - would have long since broken. Surprisingly enough, despite the downturn, Mercy Island remains firmly in Arachnos hands. The reason for this is actually ironically simple - there's no-one on Mercy Island who has both the guts and the resources to threaten Arachnos' domination of the island. Longbow have come close several times, granted, and indeed they still hold Fort Darwin, but the walls of the City of Mercy still stand firm and the Arachnos garrison inside is in no danger of being taken over. This lack of initiative is not so much due to the local population not wanting Arachnos out. However, with the constant influx of cutthroat villains from Paragon City, there is quite literally no way for anyone to plan anything without some errant villain catching wind and interfering. With the "Destined Ones" sticking their noses everywhere, a planned rebellion is quite impossible.

That's not to say that all is sunshine and rainbows for Arachnos on Mercy Island, of course. With the recalling of standing forces back to Grandville, the Mercy City has found itself badly undefended. Infected crawl out of the sewers constantly and and with Arachnos taking a hands-off approach, it falls to the Rogue Isles Police to deal with the incursions. This is made harder by a recent epidemic of Skulls, whose numbers have swollen in light of the Arachnos withdrawal from the city streets. The one silver lining of the Infected infestation is that at least these ghoulish people have managed to all but drive the snakes out of the Mercy City sewers, and push them back down into Port Darwin where they can be Longbow's problems. With the Skulls on a recruitment drive, the Hellions have also been driven out of the city limits to fight for survival in the destruction down below.

Battle lines are already being drawn. While Arachnos soldiers have retreated from Mercy City's streets, they mounted defence turrets on the city walls make a direct assault by even Longbow Chaser and Eagle squads incredibly costly, a lesson Longbow have had to learn the hard way. Taking fire from Arachnos mounted defences and suffering constant attacks by both Snakes and Hellions in the maelstrom of the devastated suburb, Longbow forces have fallen back to the ourskirts of Fort Darwin itself, where they've chosen to hold a perimeter at the point's narrowest section. This gives them a good defensive position, but at the same time leaves the rest of the island completely unpoliced.

Scrambling for standing structures, the Hellions have occupied the entire Western shore of the island, taking control of the various warehouses and silos, as well the water treatment plant. The buildings there both give them shelter and represent a good defensive position as their foundations are raised off the ground below on sheer walls. In addition, the plant also has access to the whole city's sewer system, allowing the Hellions a way back into the city if they can manage to avoid being swarmed by the Infected who live there. The snakes, by contrast, have moved back to their old burrows towards the South-East of the island, hiding underground among the ruins of old buildings.

The Legacy Chain, not entirely satisfied with Longbow's decision to pull back, have been seen working to secure clock tower. The old masonry wall around the structure keeps the courtyard relatively safe, with only the narrow entrances on both ends as access points which can be mined with mystic traps. The tall watchtower should provide a vantage point for Longbow snipers should Fort Darwin decide to send help out, but Longbow are afraid that Arachnos might simply fire rockets at the clocktower if they suspected it was being used. Despite being a strong position, it is also exposed to Snakes and Hellions on all sides and has no stable supply line to the main Longbow force at the Fort.

Though troubled, the island of Mercy isn't any worse than it has ever been. Mercy City is teeming with Snakes and overrun with Hellions, with the RIP in constant battle with both, but then that's not distinctly different from how Mercy City has was before. Arachnos' curious absence doesn't really trouble many - they didn't do jack squat to keep the peace before, so at least now the honest criminals don't have to worry about being bullied by "police," especially with the RIP as shorthanded as they are. Yes, the "Destined Ones" are a huge menace, but they're easy enough to avoid if you just keep your head down and don't make eye contact. And as far as the people of Mercy are concerned, what happens outside the walls of the city is someone else's business. For all they care, the Snakes, Hellions and Longbow can go ahead and kill each other already.

Nobody really lives outside the city walls any more, and the town "mayor" long since gave up rebuilding the lower suburbs. The money ran out a long time ago and workers were constantly being attacked by Sankes, Hellions, the Destined Ones or even Arachnos forces themselves looking for someone to bully. Now it's no-man's land, and the people of Mercy City are more than happy to leave it that way. So long as the city holds, that's all that matters.

What needs to happen to the game

*Move almost all Arachnos spawns back to Fort Darwin. If necessary, move the Quartermaster, Trainer and welcoming contact.

*Mount low-level Turrets on the Mercy wall similar to what's around Grandville. In fact, since they don't need to shoot at anyone, they can be just static props like in the old Rikti Crash Site or FBS.

*Swap spawns in Mercy Island with mostly RIP, Rip fighting Infected or Rip fighting Skulls. Occasionally, have spawns of Skulls either rallying or bugging someone, and spawns of Infected lying down being sick.

*Move all Hellion spawns to the Eastern shore of Mercy Island and have them only show up on the high ground around the intact buildings. Specifically, they need to have a presence under the shadow of the huge crude oil tank overlooking the little warehouse where Dr. Creed's old mission to kidnap homeless people took place. The Hellions are supposed to rule that turn, right?

*Move almost all Snake spawns to the South-East of Darwin's Landing and essentially restrict them to mostly showing up around eithe bare earth or rubble piles or among broken-down buildings.

*Move all Longbow spawns to Fort Darwin and the area immediatly below it where protestors used to gather. Have them the line just forward of where Matthew Burke used to be, with Longbow soldiers blocking the streets.

*Have Legacy Chain forces spawn only in the area underneath the clock tower where Hardcase used to be before he grew shorter and where Dr. Creed used to be the most recently. The mission with the wards on the ground can take place there.

That's about all I can think of.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Now there's an idea: ex-emperor Cole could escape custody and hide in the Rogue Isles. Some time later, he goes up against Lord Recluse and actually defeats him. He takes over Arachnos and turns it into something different. He becomes a "kinder, gentler" villain, and he begins to transform the Rogue Isles into a pristine thing of beauty, basically recreating what he lost on his Praetorian homeworld. He even manages to kick out such "riff-raff" as the Freakshow, The Council and even Longbow.. Suddenly, people actually want to live there! It certainly looks clean and feels safe, especially compared to Paragon City. At least it does on the surface.

Well, I dunno if anyone else would really go for that idea, tho.

Those are actually not that hard to change. Consider what they are:

Marshal Brass' arc has to do with finding out exactly what Dr. Aeon is doing and the stopping Amanda Vines from broadcasting it. Why? "Because Arachnos would have my head. Literally." Now change this to Marshal Brass trying to prove that Dr. Aeon was behind the demon attack which killed his men that got blamed on HIM. Finding the Goldbricker pack proves the Goldbrickers didn't just "come to the rescue," but Aeon's been working with them for a long time. The rest is Brass trying to stick it to Aeon. Now flip the last mission around and have Aeon himself order you to shut down the transmission and Brass offering a secret embezzled trust fund if you'd let it go through so Aeon can be exposed for the fraud that he is. It fails because "jammers," and then Brass moves on to trying to figure out if Professor Echo can't be used to as leverage against Aeon since he has a grudge against the man. Yeah, it does involve changes to the arc, but only in a few spots to alter the written text. The arc's mission structure can remain the same.

As for Willy Wheeler, his arc is even simpler. Willy pretends to be a bigshot and is trying to impress Aeon instead of Arachnos. This time, instead of fighting Arachnos forces from time to time, you end up fighting Goldbrickers. The trip to Paragon City could have to do with raiding a meeting between Aeon Corp and Crey instead of an Arachnos base hidden in the US. The changes become more substantial in terms of workload, I don't deny it, but at least the logic is pretty simple - swap any mention of "Arachnos" for "Aeon" unless the change wouldn't make sense.

I don't aim to diminish Arachnos as a significant threat, I just mean to bring it a little more in-line with all the other threats of the Isles. And you have to remember - I still haven't gotten to Grandville. That's still Arachnos' capital and the largest city of the Rogue Isles, and it's well and truly in Recluse's hands, even if it's under siege. As you'll notice, I've left Arachnos soldiers in almost all the islands leading up to that. What I want to do with this is to keep building up Arachnos as a threat until the player reaches Grandville and Bane Spiders open up, when the REAL might of Arachnos is revealed. Johnny Sonata or Emil Marcone might control cities, but Recluse BUILT a city (on top of another city) and he still has a frighteningly large army locked away inside. The point of recalling all Arachnos forces back to the capital is to ensure that Recluse can exercise an overhwelming show of force when he's ready to move, and not risk his break-out attack being countered.

I'm not going to "ruin" Arachnos, don't worry

I'd actually have to think about that much more seriously. I generally don't like bringing dead characters back to life as it cheapens the drama and tragedy around death and it just seems cheap. I HAVE brought characters of mine back from the dead, but the restoration turns them into completely different kinds of characters. A person might be revived in the body of a cyborg, or he might return but as a disembodied spirit, that sort of thing. Psyche does have an easy "out" from which she could bounce back so her side is easy, but if I were bringing back States, he wouldn't be the costumed paragon he once was. I might give him a face-heel turn, or I might turn him into more of a mentor figure, or I might give him some form of changed personality looking for the meaning of an endless struggle against an enemy who can never truly be defeated.

Basically, though, I wouldn't just hit the "rewind" button. For as much as I hate the way both of them died - and I do - I try to work with the story as much as I can, even the stuff I don't like. I've often spoken about "payoff," and if the Statesman's Death can be given some kind of important meaning, then it might transform into a better story itself.

Yeah, about that - I already did the Mercy chapter, but Haetron here is right - it's not necessary. I'm not changing the status quo, so none of my changes are really worth all that much, but to make Arachnos just that little bit less so cocksure of themselves. I had to do it, though, lest my makeover be incomplete. Grandville is still to come.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

With that reassurance, I'm on board too! Plus, it'd be easier to tell the story of the PC villain rising to power if they're doing so in a truly lawless, strife-ridden setting rather than a, well, quasi-lawless, strife-ridden setting kept that way because that's how its leader rolls.

Honestly I think that Ghost Widow should turn on him and attempt to seize control of Arachnos herself.

Her very existence is tied to the well being of the organization that Recluse is squandering away, and it would be much safer for her if she were the one in charge. Any decision she makes as head of the organization must be in Arachnos' (and thus her own) best interest.

@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

This was actually my main concern as well with this idea, as Arachnos has always been a fascinating thing to me in terms of how it has to work internally just to prevent just this sort of collapse. In the face of just that sort of collapse, I suspect Recluse basically has two choices.

A. abandon Arachnos entirely, deciding to start over.

or

B. Start playing the game like he used to when he had to subvert and take over Arachnos from the inside on his own.

This is an interesting storyline fracture point for Recluse at this point, because he's suffering some serious motivational swerves lately. Marcus is dead, but Red Widow isn't anymore. The Valentine's arc especially seems to indicate that he's starting to remember what his original goal *was*: to improve the world, by any means necessary.

And given your buildup with the other zones, this is actually a really good place for that domino to fall. Recluse has been driven out of his kingdom. His army is in retreat, collaboration, or surrender. The old Arachnos is failing....and so it must have been weak. So he needs to make it strong again.

Recluse in the modern era relied a lot on Arachnos's unassailablity within their territory. Now, with the revolts, he can't... but unlike some people, Recluse isn't a one trick pony. Statesman, Marcus is dead. He'll never win that argument face to face... but he can win it by surviving and succeeding. Il Recluso was a master manipulator and plotter, and Recluse is going to have to blow the rust off these skills if he wants to survive. But that's what he does. Recluse is among the strong. And the Strong survive.

So while everyone may or may not have their private kingdoms entrenched, the chaos of the Rogue Isles works just as well for a new, leaner, more efficient Arachnos to goad the chaos further, because inevitably, people will turn on Marcone, Aeon, Crey, and all the others. Just like they did on Arachnos....but unlike them, Arachnos survived.

Not necessarily presaging a full-on re-establishment of Arachnos's dominion, but definitely a place to make Arachnos less of a joke of a threat in low levels, with more cloak and dagger work (like Ernesto Hess's task force) in the low levels, sabotaging the new "kingdoms", before uncloaking the fact that the supposedly "weak" Arachnos iron fist is still well and truly alive in Grandville. At present, Arachnos as a villain group scale remarkably well up through the levels (like the PPD, actually). This would be a good excuse to make their storyline do so as well. Thus, it avoids unfortunate questions like why Recluse can't drop his personal honor guard of 54 Bane Spider Executioners on Mercy and massacre every threat to Arachnos dominion there in a week.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville You're right: this whole issue is a money grab. We're going to be grabbing money from impatient people with money to burn and completionist complexes, and using it to make a better game for everyone, including the 99.9% of the rest of the playerbase that isn't going to be buying everything, multiple times, immediately upon release, and spending hundreds of dollars in the process.

Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze