Retaking the Rogue Isles

I always wondered HOW Recluse kept any sort of hold on the Isles considering the sheer number of Incarnates. And given that 24 Incarnates can drop the Champion of the Well (potentially without severing ANY of his ties to the Well!), Recluse shouldn't even be a speed-bump.

Loving this idea.

Its been known for some time that by incarnate level, the player is more powerful than Recluse by a fair bit. In the Pandora's Box SSA it is acknowledged that the player probably could take down Arachnos single-handedly at this point, but that one person would be unable to keep control of all the Rogue Isles.

Oh look I'm a Cohort now.

You know, there are a lot of interesting ideas here, and I'm certainly behind making Arachnos less prevalent, but for some reason all I can think now is: "Wait, there's a tunnel between Cap Au Diable and Port Oakes?!"

And now my brain is saying I need to make a video of this to Disturbed's cover of "Land of Confusion." Or maybe Muse's "Uprising."

While you deposing Dr. Aeon is a bit harsh, you could always try to find a hole in the geometry and sneak your way in.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

I find it hard to believe that Recluse would let Shark's Head slip away. It's his primary "legal" source of income. I refer to the bauxite mines, which is also pretty much the only reason the U.S. hasn't come in and kicked ***.

Sam,

I want to acknowledge the amazing amount of work that went into this thread, but I'd really hate it if this came to pass. The Rogue Isles are why I play this game, don't sweep away all that I love about it. I know you have been very critical of several of the zones redside, but keep in mind that some of us really love the place.

I'm someone who primarily plays redside, and massive changes along these lines are non-trivial to me. I like playing within the dystopian Etoile Isles. The social darwinism of Arachnos, and the challenges that creates for maintaining control of the islands, is a really interesting (and horrible) ideological system.

As it stands now, the rule of Recluse and Arachnos explains both why there is so much room to maneuver in the Rogue Isles and why the US simply hasn't gone in and cleaned up these tiny islands. Arachnos is dangerous in a way that a cluster of fragmented, mutually-opposed governments/rulers aren't. Having the islands unified explains the technological and material wealth available to Arachnos (not fairly distributed, of course, but incredible wealth nonetheless). The mining on Sharkhead, the free power on Cap au Diable, and the gambling and entertainment on St. Martial are the sources of wealth that make Grandville (and Cap) possible. This money funds the technological innovation and military material that makes the Rogue Isles a threat. With the islands completely fragmented, only Sharkhead and St. Martial would have much economic power left, and Sharkhead would soon be completely taken over by the scrapyarders without Arachnos backing up Cage.

I'm not opposed to all changes--I'd really like to see some more clear explanation of what exactly Longbow is doing in Nerva (in my mind, Recluse uses Longbow's presence there as evidence of the "evil imperiousness of the USA" for international opinion). I'd like to see more about the PVP islands. Bloody Bay has a confusing and contradictory lore. I'd like to see more of the islands not currently in game. I'd also like to see something more made of the Abyss, probably the most beautiful zone in the entire game.

I'd love to see the tunnel between Port Oakes and Cap au Diable opened. A friend of mine once suggested that the tunnel itself could be a zone unto itself, with dangers along the way. I've often wondered how many people don't even know that PO and Cap are on the same island.

But these massive changes? Please, no.

What Pattern Walker said, x2.

(BTW, Zelazny fan, PW? )

Well, like I said from the beginning, I'm not in charge of the game and I don't have the power to OK any changes whatsoever. This is just my attempt to put my thoughts into words and to have a body of work to reference in the future when I talk about what I'd like to see happen with the Rogue Isles. I know this isn't everyone's cup of team, but that's where I stand, personally.

To me, the Rogue Isles have always been a mess, and that's what I focused on in my revisit of Grandville. I just can't see a nation governed like the Rogue Isles are not falling apart and following the example of so many African nations, by descending into faction warfare and no strong central government. More than anything else, I just never "got" Arachnos. I know why they exist - as a framing device and as THE faction to join back when Jack Emmert thought all villains wanted to be PART of an evil organisation as opposed to RUNNING one. But I just can't get into the whole notion of "social Darwinism," because what's strong typically isn't the same thing as what makes a strong national state.

For me to believe that Recluse can run the Isles so badly and yet still keep control is for me to accept that Arachnos is a HELL of a lot more powerful than it actually appears to be. The real problem is that, with how the storyline is written up, there's no reason given to players to fear Arachnos. We kick down the door to their bases and empty them of troops on a regular basis. We kick the ***** of their soldiers to kingdom come and never suffer any consequences. We slap Arachnos around like a red-headed stepchild... And then Arbiter Daos says "Jump!" and my character says "How high?" That just doesn't jive for me.

The only reason I can reasonably accept Arachnos ruling the Rogue Isles as it is right now is as a con by Recluse, with the organisation living on borrowed time. To me, Arachnos is a step-by-step recreation of the Soviet Union, but with more spiders. It's a state that can exist for a many years, but that is ultimately living on borrowed time until the money runs out. Recluse is bleeding men and bases left and right, and there's no realistic, believable way for him to be able to recover that. And he's not even fighting for the "glory of Arachnos" - that's why Ghost Widow eventually turns on him. He's fighting for is own ends. Power for Lord Recluse, the defeat of the Statesman, the takeover of Paragon City. The only way I can believe Arachnos as working is as a ticking time bomb that, sooner or later, will cave in on itself as Recluse skips town in the middle of the night.

Now, all of that is not to say you're wrong for feeling how you do. You like the story and the setting, and I can appreciate that. It's not "bad," it's just something I don't really enjoy reading about. I know it's comic book logic that the villains always have infinite bank accounts and and endless supply of goons, but I just happen to enjoy a story that makes the bad guy's resources finite much more. When you consider that the heroes aren't the only ones taking chances, facing calculating risks and gambling everything, it makes the villains seem that much more believable and real. It's one thing to have a villain who can afford to lose a zillion times and keep coming. It's quite another to have a villain who, all of a sudden, can't afford to throw soldiers away. Then the dynamic changes and the story gets more interesting.

It all comes down to personal preference. I know that the studio is never going to face an easy choice on the matter, or indeed on any matter. I really feel for Doc Aeon and his guys when they have to make a story fully knowing the results will upset some people no matter what. This is just my take on it, and my running objective is to transform the Rogue Isles into something I can believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I've always felt that Arachnos was the absolute opposite of the USSR (or even Praetoria) in some ways much more like nazi germany (but moreso) in that it was largely a set of personal fiefdoms played against each other.

Recluse's idea of "villainous liberalism" is somewhat unique and I rather like it. It needs to be better presented though. Recluse isn't being overthrown because he wields enough personal power (and from his power-base in Grandville) to squash anyone who tries, and most importantly... He does not interfere. His rules are few (no plotting against arachnos, pay your taxes, don't touch arbiters) but other than that he'll let you do as you wish. He's not the Council to have undying loyalty: he instead counts on the self-interest of his subordinates.

I'd cement that a bit especially with his LT's: Ghost Widow is bound to Arachnos, and thus in some sensed forced to be loyal, Scirocco's curse means he has nowhere else to go, Black Scorpion is reliant on Recluse's techs in order to keep his armor running, and Mako... Honestly I'm not quite sure what I'd do with Mako, but the point is, they should have a reason to obey (grudgingly) Recluse, not because of any kind of loyalty to a superior or anything like that but becuase Recluse gives them what they want.

So yeah, cut the Arachnos infighting, instead keep them as a kind of neutral party, that mainly deals with outside aggression (eg. Longbow) and occasionally serves as muscle for whoever rules the individual islands. But they're not directly involved in the day-to-day running of the islands. (Grandville excepted)

And yeah, cut the infighting, or rather, keep the infighting outside Arachnos itself and confined to the other factions and elements of the islands. Instead keep pointing out how Arachnos officials work together not becuase they like each other but becuase they all have something to gain from it. Rather than being totalitarian Arachnos should be presented as laissez-faire: At least outside of their own dominions in Grandville. They weave webs of mutual dependence. Rather than "ruling" The Isles, Lord Recluse more or less just takes his cut, skims a bit off the top of them, and uses them to fund whatever schemes he has cooking. And he redistributes this to his fellows. He's more of a roman emperor (while he has his iron fist, he mostly rules by bread, circuses and favours, by co-opting local elites and making them have a stake in his success) rather than a modern police-state.

Huh. I have to admit, I'd figured on a few of the tricks you pulled with Grandville (deliberately antagonizing Arachnos' enemies into fighting each other, using the Fortunata as a Seer network to make undetected infiltration impossible), but a few others I didn't, and I should have.

The portal tech being used to supply Arachnos' manpower and resource needs despite being locked in a (relatively) tiny geographical area is actually a really smart one, and if Recluse is playing it even cagier, I can see him using the various portals much the same way various powers used the Stargates in that franchise. The various Portal Corp missions seem to imply there are *dozens* of dead alternate Earths out there that Arachnos could send strike teams into and secure entire continents of raw resources. Because while Recluse can't be everywhere, I'm pretty sure he can spare an hour to crush the Psychic Clockwork King's brain under his boot and then leave reclaiming the entire city of smeltable materials to his minions.

Hell, Grandville could become a proper capital again, with "Arachnos Dimensions" popping up where he's gone inter-dimensional conqueror while feigning weakness in the face of the revolts in the Isles proper. And your mention of integrating DDP conscripts into the Bane Network does wonders for explaining their apparent expendable status. All the *valuable* Banes are probably staying back in Grandville, while the photocopy brains are on the front lines.

I really like this idea, because Recluse as presented in the novels has almost always been portrayed as ruthlessly intelligent (the Freedom Phalanx novel especially has him conspiring to take out all the given superheroes in Paragon before he makes his strike at all), but the game itself tends to lend him more towards theatric supervillainy that should be Nemesis's purview. This readout makes him more of the master of webs of intrigue his name and characterization suggest, and provides a way for him to actually be a threat to the Double-Googleplex Incarnate villains running around. Recluse may not be as powerful, but he's able to be a lot smarter than the Well-empowered Superbrick that thinks he's hot stuff.

About the only thing I can think of is that there should be further mention of Recluse's Incarnate-related experiments, especially with that origin making such a huge resurgence. We saw some of it in the DA arcs where he's planning to siphon newly Incarnated Destined Ones to empower his army, and even pushed back to Grandville as he is here, I think Recluse still has the resources to pursue that.

...and if it happens to make Recluse a god in literal fact as well as in effective authority and power within his domain, well... I imagine the other Isles have *many* reasons to hire out Destined Ones to sabotage those plans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville You're right: this whole issue is a money grab. We're going to be grabbing money from impatient people with money to burn and completionist complexes, and using it to make a better game for everyone, including the 99.9% of the rest of the playerbase that isn't going to be buying everything, multiple times, immediately upon release, and spending hundreds of dollars in the process.

Sammy, you're brilliant. Now, can you please get to the Shadow Shard? Portal Corp Needs you!!

Sam, this stuff is wonderful. As much as I love the Rogue Isles now, I think this would breathe some new life into them (well, at least until the shiny wears off and players go back to grinding phat lewt blueside where everyone they know plays... I really think that the thing that hinders redside the most is that "Heroes" can't go there, at least not without switching alignment, which is out of the question for some RPers). I really like almost all the suggested overhauls, with the possible exception of Mercy, and I can take or leave that.

I liked the idea of Crey taking over management of public utilities in Nerva, especially "water treatment." I could easily see them introducing a local variant of Enriche to the public at large, straight through the pipes.

It also occurs to me that as much as I've grown unimpressed with the cookie cutter application of "Invasions" it would seem appropriate to me if Arachnos used this technology (via their portal tech) to launch surprise invasions of the various islands. Even if they can't hold on to them, launching the occasional invasion would keep the locals in check to some extent, and allow an opportunity to destroy their capacity to expand their island domains. Arachnos would show that it still has to be considered a threat, but that it can be a manageable threat. Unlike other invasions, this wouldn't be limited to rare weekends, but would just pop up like Steel Canyon building fires every so often. I don't know if they could manage it with the tech, but maybe they could even prevent the despawn of existing NPCs thereby turning the zone into a warzone for the duration. Eh, It's just a thought.

As much as it seems like you've tried to make the changes such that existing storyarcs would require little if any changes, I'd love to see some new stories and contacts to accompany such changes as well.

About Crey...Do you suppose they're into any Incarnate experimentation? I mean, there was the Experiment Gone Awry, a foray by Crey into the supernatural. We already know that those who take scientific approach to magic can actually be terrifying (Praetorian Percy Winkley, for example), but an entire corporation with even partial mastery over magic and Well powers would indeed be a mighty force to reckon with. It'd also give upper-level heroes a reason to pursue Crey again, with all the political maneuvering that that would require. I always rather liked the idea of a...Luthorian Paradox? The heroes have the raw power to uterly destroy the villains, but the villains utilize the power structure to stump the heroes, leaving heroes to wonder how to win on the villain's terms.

Rough Example:

Project: Demigod

Crey research into the Arachnoids and lesser Incarnates has lead to new breakthroughs in the field of para-physics, allowing the Crey Corporation to start Project: Demigod. The project is the logical continuation of the Revenant Hero Project, supernatural research, and newly acquired knowledge (and bodies) of Incarnates: The creation of Incarnates fueled by the Well's full power, but loyal to the Countess until the bitter end. Recluse has had his agents watching the project carefully for a while, and while he sees the possible threat it poses, he also realizes it could mean being freed from that blasted puddle, so he has been secretly sending Destined Ones to their deaths for Crey's research.

Villain: You see the power you could have to gain from stealing this research, either using it, or blackmailing Crey to get it back and then using it anyway. Rumor has it that Aeon has figured out Recluse's trickery and is none too happy. He could be the key to the mother lode.

Hero: For some reason, fledgling Incarnates in both the Isles and Paragon City have been disappearing, just as new, more powerful Paragon Protectors have been spotted in the streets. This seems suspicious, and you're not the only person who thinks so: Manticore has been monitoring Crey activity in the Rogue Isles through his...sources, and he is convinced Crey is involved. He needs your assistance investigating this, because despite your own fame, you're still less conspicuous than a chief member of the Phalanx, and he needs somebody deniable. Go find the truth, and tell the people at any price.

You've done a great job with this, Sam. I'd love to see a lot of this stuff incorporated.

I think my favorite thing is that several underutilized characters are pushed to the forefront, like Kirk Cage and King Midas. And by shaking up the power structure in the Isles, it opens up huge new possibilities for story arcs and strike forces.

This did kind of sort of slide sideways of where I was going with it, but that seems to be the norm for most anything I write, especially with other, smarter people than me pitching in. I really like where this is going. I started out just basically wanting to get rid of Arachnos forces from most islands without giving much thought to Recluse himself, but this direction we came up with for not just making Recluse relevant again but for making him THE villain of the game really makes me happy. For as much as I've disliked Arachnos' role as "brownie points for the Spiders," I've always felt that Recluse is one of the coolest villains we've ever had and the ONLY one worth making the face of villainy in the game. I mean, I like the Nemesis probably the most of all the villains, but Recluse is still the only one who deserves the top spot, more than Reichsman, more than Tyrant, more than whatever's behind the Coming Storm. Recluse deserves to be the guy we fear when he threatens us and the guy we secretly cheer when he's on our side.

And really - what better time is there for the man to mobilise? His army is suffering terrible losses, his lieutenants are deserting, his operations are failing, his islands are leaving him... Now is the time for Recluse to go back to his roots and remind us why we were afraid of him to begin with. Because he can be a threat - the greatest threat our world has ever faced. He can and he should be. Because Recluse is not JUST an Incarnate. He's not JUST a powerhouse. He's not JUST a villain. He is a cunning, insidious manipulator, a powerful leader and a great thinker before you even get into his personal power. Even if people are now growing more powerful than he is, Recluse should still be able to find ways to fight on their level. In fact, he really should be the first to do so, beating even Lord Nemesis himself to the punch.

Which is funny, because the new zone I was going to suggest for the Isles was going to be a Nemesis Island

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Nemesis isn't personally powerful enough to be a head villain. Also, you can't be the face of villainy if you have no face.

Recluse is most certainly to face of villainy in the game. He was the cover of City of Villains for cryin' out loud. I love the idea of him ruling entire other-dimensional Earths. Spreading his empire out while the world thinks hes weakening. Then Longbow tries a direct attack on him and surprise! They get their ***** kicked by more soldiers than could physically be kept on the island.

Then they have to conclude that Recluse is a Time Lord and his tower is a really big TARDUS.

Going along with this theme, and since PVP has been mostly forgotten by PS since I13ish or so, this kind of shaking up could lead to some new life for the PVP zones. You covered Warburg, but what would you do in Siren's Call, and Booty Bay, both of which have a moderate to large Arachnos Presence. Would Arachnos leave Siren's to the heroes who are finally able to rebuild it properly? It would make sense as it seems here is where their presence is already the smallest. I always thought more could be done with these cross game zones. Maybe even make one into another co-op PVE hub.

I didn't want to mess with the PvP zones, personally, because this is where gameplay gets in my way unavoidably. Anything I feel would make sense to do to a PvP zone would ultimately lead to it no longer being a PvP zone, and that's a problem. It is a problem, at least, unless we accept to have a PvP and a PvE version of the same map, which... I'm not sure is possible, or even desirable.

I also don't really know almost anything about them. I've been to Bloody Bay I think twice and didn't see much of the zone, I've been to Siren's Call once, though I remember a lot of it from Silos' TF/SF, I've been to Warburg a few times but never really explored much of it, and I've been to Recluse's Victory once. Most of what I said about the other zones, I said off memory with ParagonWiki on the side to make sure I don't get any of the names wrong (and still managed to botch Port Oakes), but knowing nothing about the zones, I just don't feel confident enough to talk about them. I guess I could spend some time there now that PvP is dead and they're safe... That might not be a bad idea.

If anyone wants to bring me up to speed on what the story is behind the various PvP zones, who's in them and where the various NPCs are located, I could try my hand at them, but I'm really not sure I could do much with those things. They're kind of like Paragon City's old Hazard Zones - not much you can do with them unless you come up with brand new stories off the cuffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.