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Yes and I'll do the same on my SOA, Scraper, Coruptor, and MM.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
That's fine. I'll be over there, soloing the x8 'Lone Wolf' missions from the DA arcs, quoting Optimus Prime and being unkillable
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Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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Sort of like a taunting version placate? I could get behind that.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Maybe turn confront that gives Scrappers a bonus to critical against the confronted target. Maybe like 2-3% extra chance to crit?
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I almost always take it these days. I didn't on non-Tanks in the pre-Inherent Fitness days, but now that I need a few extra powers that don't require slotting, I've found it useful both as filler and as a situational utility power. It's nice at low levels for the occasional pull that I need (in this case, especially Confront), and at high levels I've found even my Scrappers occasionally saving some squishier teammate from a random boss on occasion. And through the entire leveling experience, it's a great power for cancelling the utterly annoying utterly stupid tendency of the AI to run like mad for parts unknown. Granted, it shouldn't happen in the first place, but since it does, Taunt and Confront are a pretty good makeshift solution.
My tanks all have taunt, and usually relatively early in their builds. It's never highly slotted, but it doesn't need to be. While I don't think it's impossible to do your job as a tanker without it or anything, it just makes that job so much easier that I could never imagine skipping it. And even solo it's dead useful to pull in ranged attackers or runners.
I don't much care for brutes in general, but my one brute also has taunt. I don't see it as my overriding job to hold aggro, but she *really* appreciates it when the mobs all clump up on her in a nice big pile to be cloven in twain by her absurdly large sword, so she has it. And heck, if that happens to pull aggro off of a squishy, even better. And it's *still* awesome for runners/ranged foes.
If scrappers had taunt instead of confront, most of mine would probably have it. Even on a non-tank, while I don't consider it my primary job, I still appreciate the ability to manipulate mob behavior that way, and the ability to pinch hit on that job if the team has no other aggro control is nice. And even though everyone always says 'if you want to taunt something, stab it in the face', and I certainly have no objections to stabbing things, taunting it is still faster and doesn't require me to move away from the guy I'm *currently* stabbing in the face. As it stands, though, while I still take confront if I have room for it, it's not on every single one of my scrappers the way it is on my tanks/brute. I've been tempted at times to take provoke, but the fact that it actually requires slotting has always put me off. I might go for it now that the presence pool is actually becoming good, though.
... does anyone else find it *really* odd to be putting the words 'presence pool' and 'good' in the same sentence? 
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
All of my tanks have taunt. Most of my brutes have taunt. I don't take confront on my scrappers, since I usually only play claws or spines which already have ranged attacks.
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Yes please.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Maybe turn confront that gives Scrappers a bonus to critical against the confronted target. Maybe like 2-3% extra chance to crit?
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In my opinion...Taunt should be a power that when selected...adds global inherent Taunt to your attacks.
Therefore...say you hit someone with Knockout Blow and you have picked up the new inherent Taunt. Knockout Blow works like it usually does but also doubles as Taunt...working just like Taunt does now on the enemy you just knocked into the air.
If you're out of range for the attack to hit an enemy...it simply taunts the enemy like Taunt does now.
No more standing still to taunt the enemies...you taunt them by fighting...by attacking.
Now obviously...this is already the case with Gauntlet and Brutes inherent, single target, taunt component.
What I'm suggesting here is that the power Taunt now adds to that...basically making every attack power double as Taunt. (assuming you take Taunt)
We need less "waving your hand...attack me" and more "punch in the face...fight me".
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I'm pretty sure Mt. Rushmore can solo a x8 spawn of pine trees just because granite tends to have a longer lifespan than trees, but that doesn't mean Mt. Rushmore is very likely to get up and punch you. That's what the post you're replying to is saying - Tankers are tough and, given enough time, can also be dangerous, but on any given team, they are pretty much the LEAST immediate threat of all. It's especially egregious with "perma-Granite" Tankers since the key to defeating them comes down to walking faster than they do, which isn't hard.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
That's fine. I'll be over there, soloing the x8 'Lone Wolf' missions from the DA arcs, quoting Optimus Prime and being unkillable
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This is actually one of my big problems with Taunt - it makes no sense when you stop to think about it. I'm sure you could taunt hothead thugs, but when you start talking highly-trained disciplined soldiers or AI-controlled robots, it becomes a problem, that problem being that while the Tanker is hard to kill, it poses not very much of a threat. In fact, it would be logical to target the things you can kill faster first, especially when those things are actually far more dangerous and ESPECIALLY when you can just walk around the Tanker.
When you talk about "tanks" from comic books, these aren't just the toughest guys, they're also some of the most dangerous. Take the Thing, for instance. Sure, he's not very fast and you can probably bog him down with a few annoying minions, but turn your back on the guy and let him land one good blow on the back of your head and see how your priorities change. As far as I'm concerned, it only makes sense for enemies to attack a taunting Tanker if NOT doing so would be an obviously wrong decision. Hence where my oooold suggestion comes in:
Have Tankers (and possibly Brutes and Scrappers) deal considerable additional damage against taunted targets that aren't actively targeting them. Say you taunt an AV but that AV ignores you and goes for your Blaster anyway. Axe him in the back of the head for, say, double damage and see how he likes it. THAT would make a Tanker dangerous, and it would actually serve to make him a threat that HAS to be pinned down or else it will run wild.
Right now, Taunt is tantamount to mind control, and it forces enemies to be stupid even when there's no reason for them to be. Attacking the Tanker is the stupid choice, and if actual players are put in this position, they'll be smart and go for the healer. That's why I'm saying it ought to work less like mind control and more like good judgement, essentially by creating penalties for NOT attacking the Tanker.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I am confused. Isn't that what we already have? Unless when you say less, you mean none.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
We need less "waving your hand...attack me" and more "punch in the face...fight me".
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I kind of like that there are powers that are not attacks that can draw aggro. I greatly appreciate that punching things in the face also taunts and generates hate and I like that those are the vast majority of my actions. But I do like having something like Taunt that is different from just attacking.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
My tanks and brutes always take Taunt, and my scrappers almost always take Confront.
I two-slot Confront with:
* Perfect Zinger: Taunt/Range
* Perfect Zinger: Chance for Psionic Damage
It already is quick to recharge, and slotting this way expands its range past 80 feet as well as the 20% chance of damage. Consider that you likely have only a 5-7% chance to hit a MoGged Paragon Protector with a normal attack, and 20% ain't so bad. Especially when I've defeated such a Paragon Protector with Confront.
It would be nice if Taunt and Confront were bound more tightly to a set's flavor. For example, why not let it build Perfection on a staff character? Since the recharge is so long for Taunt, it would always add 1 level of perfection for tanks and brutes. And since the recharge is so short for scrappers, it would have a 50% chance to add 1 level of perfection for scrappers.
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
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Yeah, when I say "less" I mean none.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am confused. Isn't that what we already have? Unless when you say less, you mean none.
I kind of like that there are powers that are not attacks that can draw aggro. I greatly appreciate that punching things in the face also taunts and generates hate and I like that those are the vast majority of my actions. But I do like having something like Taunt that is different from just attacking. |
It's of my opinion that Taunt is easily the dumbest thing in the game. Mechanically it's amazing. Conceptually...it's ridiculous.
You're in the middle of a big fight and then you start waving your hand at enemies attacking your teammates.
What I'm saying is...just let your powers be Taunt. Change the power of Taunt into a passive that adds inherent Taunt to your attacks. If you're of out range for your attack to hit the enemy...it taunts them automatically...like taunt would now.
This way...in the middle of a big fight...you never have to stop attacking to use Taunt...since you will be constantly using Taunt by attacking.
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Why? Why not just have attacks? Why do you need a taunt power?
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
. But I do like having something like Taunt that is different from just attacking.
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Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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I disagree. We end up overusing it, but that is how any game with limited moves and tons of fights is going to work. We overuse Foot Stomp and Golden Dragonfly and Fire Ball too.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
Conceptually...it's ridiculous.
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I like most movie scenes with a dramatic attention grab move. Sometimes they do make me groan, but usually I enjoy that over-the-top, cocky maneuver.
Other times, I like it when Indy pulls out the gun and just kills the guy. I wouldn't want Taunt to be the only way to generate aggro, but I do like its existence.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Why? Why not just have attacks? Why do you need a taunt power?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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To each their own.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. We end up overusing it, but that is how any game with limited moves and tons of fights is going to work. We overuse Foot Stomp and Golden Dragonfly and Fire Ball too.
I like most movie scenes with a dramatic attention grab move. Sometimes they do make me groan, but usually I enjoy that over-the-top, cocky maneuver. Other times, I like it when Indy pulls out the gun and just kills the guy. I wouldn't want Taunt to be the only way to generate aggro, but I do like its existence. Because I like it. Nothing more than that. |
For the record...I agree with you on the overuse of Footstomp. It's why I've been trying to get Haymaker turned into aoe as well.
While I think Footstomp is amazing mechanically...I hate it conceptually. I mean, you're supposed to be a hero...but you're busy smashing the ground of every office building you're trying to save from the enemies. Makes no sense.
...but we can save that discussion for another time.
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I wouldn't mind if it WERE a dramatic attention grab, but there's nothing dramatic or attention-grabbing about a beckon. That's why I talked about setting someone's butt on fire or spraying water in someone's face or some other use of actual super powers that's irritating but not damaging. Moreover, attention-grabbing shouldn't equate with mind control, because we really are making enemies act irrationally stupid. As I said - if there were a reason why beckoning someone to attack you gave you a practical advantage rather than forcing their hand, I wouldn't mind it nearly as much.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I like most movie scenes with a dramatic attention grab move. Sometimes they do make me groan, but usually I enjoy that over-the-top, cocky maneuver.
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I tend to think of game mechanics in terms of how they would affect another sentient player. Suppose you're in a team-on-team fight. Who do you attack first from the enemy team: The Tanker or the Defender? Not the Tanker, that's for sure, so being forced to attack the Tanker is just forcing you to make a bad decision. Mind-control or illusion powers can do that, but last I checked, having superhuman strength doesn't give you control of other people's minds.
At the very least, I want Taunt/Confront to LOOK like something that might make an enemy want to attack you, if not ACT as a more potent power. Same for Placate, actually, though its potency is pretty much enough I'd say. It just looks underwhelming.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Its Standard Hero Manuever 14: Insult their manhood / mother / favorite teddy bear / whatever. It wouldn't hurt to have some alternate animations available, but right now Taunt is whatever you imagine yourself doing to incite the enemy.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
At the very least, I want Taunt/Confront to LOOK like something that might make an enemy want to attack you, if not ACT as a more potent power.
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
As for Sam's initial question: My tankers and brutes take Taunt and my scrappers skip Confront. Gathering aggro is the bread and butter of my tanks and brutes, not to mention the -range is very handy. Since my scrapper can't drag multiple targets, I found it more useful to leave it by the wayside, pick a different power, and go after marksmen and mentalists the old fashioned way.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Don't let PP use MoG you lose XP.
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Originally Posted by cohRock
My tanks and brutes always take Taunt, and my scrappers almost always take Confront.
I two-slot Confront with: * Perfect Zinger: Taunt/Range * Perfect Zinger: Chance for Psionic Damage It already is quick to recharge, and slotting this way expands its range past 80 feet as well as the 20% chance of damage. Consider that you likely have only a 5-7% chance to hit a MoGged Paragon Protector with a normal attack, and 20% ain't so bad. Especially when I've defeated such a Paragon Protector with Confront. It would be nice if Taunt and Confront were bound more tightly to a set's flavor. For example, why not let it build Perfection on a staff character? Since the recharge is so long for Taunt, it would always add 1 level of perfection for tanks and brutes. And since the recharge is so short for scrappers, it would have a 50% chance to add 1 level of perfection for scrappers. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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I thought I had already addressed this.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I tend to think of game mechanics in terms of how they would affect another sentient player. Suppose you're in a team-on-team fight. Who do you attack first from the enemy team: The Tanker or the Defender? Not the Tanker, that's for sure, so being forced to attack the Tanker is just forcing you to make a bad decision. |
In a comic book, or a movie, or a PnP RPG, and intelligent enemy isn't going to attack the toughest looking hero. No mater what insult they hurl. However, if said tough hero physically positions themselves in front of the softer target, the enemy has no choice but to try and go through them. But in an online computer game positioning isn't handled in a way that would make this possible to reproduce. So we get taunt instead. Making taunt less abstract, such as throwing a pebble or a glass of water, would be more intrusive and potentially sillier than the current beckon, which can be ignored just as we ignore all the floating numbers and symbols on the screen.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Unless they have means other than the directly physical to use, as many heroes/villains do.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
However, if said tough hero physically positions themselves in front of the softer target, the enemy has no choice but to try and go through them.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
For the OP:
Tanks: Pretty much a guarantee I have taunt.
Brutes: Some do, some don't.
Scrappers: None have Confront that I can think of.
Actually, reading this thread it sounds like we may have stumbled onto the path of fixing the melee ATs.
What I'm seeing here is that board members don't take confront on their scrappers. Brutes take taunt, and tanks take taunt. So in the hypothetical, since tanks are the lowest damaging AT, then brutes, then scrappers, why not this...
Remove confront from scrappers, add in a awesome attack (just meaning, nothing unappealing in visual or numbers) that has a chance to critical. This would move scrappers further away from brutes in the dmg department as it should be.
Remove taunt from brutes, give brutes confront, leave other aggro generating tools in place such as auras. If a brute wants to aggro manage make them learn how to use their auras, or pick up provoke. Otherwise this would move them away from tanks aggro management capabilities.
Leave tanks as is. Thats right, as is (not withstanding visual changes to make attacks "feel" more powerful and possibly upping threat generation or removing aggro caps)
The idea here is that it would help each melee class not step on the others toes.
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Originally Posted by Profit
Actually, reading this thread it sounds like we may have stumbled onto the path of fixing the melee ATs.
What I'm seeing here is that board members don't take confront on their scrappers. Brutes take taunt, and tanks take taunt. So in the hypothetical, since tanks are the lowest damaging AT, then brutes, then scrappers, why not this... Remove confront from scrappers, add in a awesome attack (just meaning, nothing unappealing in visual or numbers) that has a chance to critical. This would move scrappers further away from brutes in the dmg department as it should be. Remove taunt from brutes, give brutes confront, leave other aggro generating tools in place such as auras. If a brute wants to aggro manage make them learn how to use their auras, or pick up provoke. Otherwise this would move them away from tanks aggro management capabilities. Leave tanks as is. Thats right, as is (not withstanding visual changes to make attacks "feel" more powerful and possibly upping threat generation or removing aggro caps) The idea here is that it would help each melee class not step on the others toes. |
But wouldn't that push Scrappers closer to where Stalkers are now?
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Except that scrappers crits are random and stalkers can more or less crit when they want.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
But wouldn't that push Scrappers closer to where Stalkers are now?
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My Brutes typically like taunt for the purposes of building fury, but it's hardly something I prioritize and it's only very useful for early levels where I can't build my fury as quickly as I would like. If I built my Brutes for tanking I might consider taunt more of a priority, but I don't, so it isn't.
I never take Confront on a Scrapper, however. A single target provoke has little use when I can just as easily attack them for the same effect.
I think the powers work fine enough on their own, save for confront, which I find completely useless. I'm not sure how you would change confront without stepping on Tanker's already bloody toes. I don't really think it needs to be changed either.