CoH2. Will it ever happen?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-22 13:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
People just like to stir it up. Nothing new here SOS from the "usual" suspects. Pfft.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
To be honest, if Marvel had bought this game instead of trying to sue it, I think it would have been something awesome.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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That is something I am SO happy did not happen as I had no desire in being another part of the Marvel thing I grew up reading and had already experienced with Marvel Ultimate Alliance.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
To be honest, if Marvel had bought this game instead of trying to sue it, I think it would have been something awesome.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I think eventually a CoH 2 will happen but it will be years and years down the road. Most likely it will happen because a leap in tech will be made when CoH can no longer be played on modern computers as computers abandon older technologies and push forward with newer ones.
CoH will basically hit a technology block that they will be unable to skirt around with fixes, hacks and bubblegum. Sure dedicated users will always find a way to play the games that they loved years ago (dosbox is a good example) but average users won't have enough technical knowledge about legacy systems to get older games running on future computers.
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In regards to that - CoH is sort of like a fresh slate were there to be a movie. The general public doesn't have an ingrained idea of "what" City of Heroes or how Statesman should be, etc - except maybe for us, the players |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
do you really think enough people care about coh to make a movie viable? is the lroe really that deep while at the same time accommodating to people who are not major fans?
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[redacted]
Anyway. I think the original CoH is fortunate to have such wildly talented and passionate people working for it that the game will fluidly evolve into new iterations. I do believe with the revamp of Atlas Park last year we can safely say we are at the dawn of 2.0. Or at least waking up to the fact we are in 2.0
/end ramble
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I honestly can say I think that would have had a high chance of being a disaster. In a best case scenario, it could have had this existing game's creative talent and designers setting its direction while being able to benefit from Marvel's branding. But I'm not at all sure the best case scenario would have been likely.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
To be honest, if Marvel had bought this game instead of trying to sue it, I think it would have been something awesome.
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Just to give one example of why I think that could have gone badly (at least in retrospect), consider that it's extremely hard to separate this game's creative successes from the fact that its setting's lore was a blank slate, beholden to no other creators. While I hardly think CoH's success stems directly from its lore, the lore a game does have influences and constrains what things are done within it.
Consider what a negative gameplay influence it might have been if instead of a small constellation of founding lore heroes (in the form of the Freedom Phalanx and the Vindicators) we instead had dozens or even hundreds of Marvel heroes. I think that would have created a serious risk that our characters would have been portrayed as secondary characters with the core Marvel ones hogging the spotlight. People complained about that even with CoH's less significant trademark recognition investment in its lore heroes, so I think the risk would have been real.
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I tend to also think that we are very unlikely to ever see a CoH2 for pretty much the reasons other people have stated. It would end up splitting the community so unless it managed to bring in a LOT of new players it is unlikely to be profitable.
I can think of one non-obvious reason why I wouldn't want to see a CoH2, knowing that CoH2 would likely mean the end of CoH1: I play on a Mac.
Odds are that any new game is going to be DirectX-based, not OpenGL-based, and judging by NCSoft's other offerings, that would leave out the possibility of a Mac version. The Mac version of the current game client is basically just the Windows version in a Cider emulation wrapper, which only works as well as it does because the original game used OpenGL, which is still the Mac standard.
The only way I see it happening is for the devs to actually write a native Mac client, like Blizzard does for WoW, allowing the Windows client to use its native DirectX and the Mac client to use its native OpenGL. But given the current size of the CoH playerbase, and guessing at what percentage of that playerbase is playing on Macs, I don't see NCSoft being able to justify expending the resources to build a native Mac client.
And, well, I'm basically a one-game-at-a-time guy. I don't divide my attention between multiple games, particularly when they're as time-intensive as MMOs. I'll play one game until I get tired of it, which can take years (I got 5+ years out of Diablo 2, 3+ out of WoW). So, given my own resources, and the fact that for non-gaming tasks I hugely prefer the Mac, I can't justify buying a Windows gaming computer just to play one game. I do have a cheap Windows laptop that I use mainly to allow me to log in a second account so that I can invite my own characters into my SGs without involving another player. But it's not nearly robust enough to actually play most modern games (oddly, while its specs are not all that different from my Mac, certain GFX settings in CoH, like FSAA, just turn the laptop's screen black).
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IIRC, not only did that giant elephant of an MMO have a development budget that was over 4x CoH's reported cost to bring it to market, but the elephant reported spending that much again in their first year for marketing, advertising, paying frontage fees at game shops, etc.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Hell, even the giant elephant of an MMO in the room doesn't do TV ads often. They did a batch a while back, but generally don't bother. 'course, they're already huge and they used actual celebrities for theirs...
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When you spend like that, you often HAVE TO go big or go home.
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Remember, when budgeting, both companies looked at the first generation MMO's and saw subscriptions hitting 100,000 to a 600,000 peak.
A small indie studio making its first game on an unknown IP said "if we peak at 100,000 subscribers and stay at this budget we'll be a great financial success!"
A large, established studio with a huge fanbase and established IP said "if we peak at 600,000 subscribers and stay at this budget, we'll be a great financial success!"
Both were right.
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the game industry is in bad shape because games cost more than ever to make, they are stolen more than ever, and people are not willing to pay much for them.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Why is the game industry in bad shape?
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A very few games make a ton of money, most don't. To be a contender you have to spend 50 million or more on a game. If you don't make that back you are out of business.
It used to be that small groups of people could make a core game or an MMO (DOOM or Asheron's Call for instance). But they just cannot make the sort of huge, polished game that players demand now.
And games cost $60 20 years ago and they cost that now. Spending 10x as much money making a game that you sell for the same price is just not a viable business.
I am sure someone has brought this up in this thread but, I really do not think a CoH2 would work because of the existing characters people have already made. The amount of care, time, influence or infamy, to make their characters playable or what they wanted would make people upset. A lot of people put effort in their characters and now they have to start over in a new one and relearn a system that could be different from this one. Turn off city right there. Rather than make another one, should they do what most MMo's have done, just update the character models, environment and bases to include like A.E. the to include something simple like ability to look outside at the city. But also realize that doing so would take time, heck amount of money, and resources to the point we may not see new content or powers for a while.
So it comes down to a choice, leave as is(dated limits on engine), CoH2 and possibly lose some customers, or update the game further to make it more modern and not see anything new for a while. I am glad I am not in their room or the fly on the wall whenever this conversation comes up.
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Yes, because Disney needs to have their fingers in another pot and totally ruin another source of entertainment for me.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
To be honest, if Marvel had bought this game instead of trying to sue it, I think it would have been something awesome.
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I'd like to see a CoH2, as I'd like to see updated graphics the like of some Korean MMOs.
However, I doubt it will happen because we have players who think it's only worthwhile if they can take characters from one game and move them to the next.
At which point, basically, they dont want to level anything really. New game means new everything.
I'd be okay with all the releveling if it meant "OMG all the stuff I wanted in CoH!"
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The BrandX Collection
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And they can't remake them? Can't re earn things?|
Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
I am sure someone has brought this up in this thread but, I really do not think a CoH2 would work because of the existing characters people have already made. The amount of care, time, influence or infamy, to make their characters playable or what they wanted would make people upset. A lot of people put effort in their characters and now they have to start over in a new one and relearn a system that could be different from this one. Turn off city right there. Rather than make another one, should they do what most MMo's have done, just update the character models, environment and bases to include like A.E. the to include something simple like ability to look outside at the city. But also realize that doing so would take time, heck amount of money, and resources to the point we may not see new content or powers for a while.
So it comes down to a choice, leave as is(dated limits on engine), CoH2 and possibly lose some customers, or update the game further to make it more modern and not see anything new for a while. I am glad I am not in their room or the fly on the wall whenever this conversation comes up. |
What? Do they never plan to play any other game again?
Not to mention some of those who say "I have to keep my characters!" have left the game before for other games
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Do a character database wipe and see how well that argument holds up. Yes, some of us have played other games. I have a hard time imagining those of us who've been here for eight years and sunk thousands upon thousands of hours being willing to start over in a new game full time, however.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
And they can't remake them? Can't re earn things?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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What's changed in the gaming industry since CoH was born is the invention of downloadable content as a prime money maker and method of retaining players. Many players may be unwilling to move to a "sequel" because it could mean none of the special purchases they've made carry over.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Because, instead of being run like companies like High Moon Studios, who's lead Dev is a massive (and awesome) geek, and Paragon, who are all awesome geeks and gamers, the 'Big Players' in the industry are run by money grubbing scumbag suits, like EA, Activision etc. They aren't making games for the sake of awesome gaming, which has the side benefit of people screaming "Take ALL my money!", no; they are instead trying to aim directly for the money. And making widdly-poor games while they're at it.
I'm sorry, bitter and jaded? What makes you say that? *CoughDIEEACough* |
Well, we can all at least breathe a temporary sigh of relief that the Real Auction Money House and Always On DRM monstrosity has so far only really made an appearance in one major game so far, and that game is currently being ripped apart by massively negative reviews and even coverage in Forbes magazine.
To put it the way I was it written in one Amazon review, that threshold is the difference between gamers making games for gamers, and business people making products for gamers.
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It doesn't help that it's not a very good game with a story that's one of the most disappointing I've seen in years.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Well, we can all at least breathe a temporary sigh of relief that the Real Auction Money House and Always On DRM monstrosity has so far only really made an appearance in one major game so far, and that game is currently being ripped apart by massively negative reviews and even coverage in Forbes magazine.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Will CoH2 ever happen? Well lets see:
1. Is Paragon Studios actually working on CoH2 now? No: the new game is based on different IP. Probability: zero.
2. Does Paragon Studios have another dev team working on CoH2? No: there isn't the body count to do that. Probability: essentially zero.
3. Could NCSoft be working on a CoH2 without Paragon Studios. Theoretically possible, but essentially ridiculous. Probability: virtually zero.
4. Is it likely Paragon Studios would begin work on a sequel with the current CoH dev team? Very unlikely. The logistics would be a nightmare, and many of the senior developers took positions with the other dev team. Probability: < 1%.
5. Would Paragon Studios cease development on CoH to devote time to CoH2? Also unlikely. While Paragon Studios is generating revenue from CoH that's irrational. If it gets to the point they aren't, a sequel itself would be unlikely. Probability: < 1%.
6. Is there any other possible way for a CoH2 to be created within the next ten years? Not that I can see. Probability: < 1%.
7. Even if a CoH2 was miracled into existence, would it be compatible with CoH1? Nope. You don't make new games that are identical to old games, and without the current game's mechanics and power architecture, the game wouldn't be remotely compatible. Characters would not be portable or exchangeable. CoH2 would at best be connected by IP, but not by game mechanics or transferred characters. Probability of compatible CoH2: < 1%.
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And probably the only reason both EQ and EQ2 are still going (strong? Not sure...) is EQ is old enough to be "light" on server architecture I'm guessing, and it had a big enough player base to "survive" the split. Although, I think EQ has dropped from about 40+ servers as I recall in 04 to about a dozen, I think.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Will CoH2 ever happen? Well lets see:
1. Is Paragon Studios actually working on CoH2 now? No: the new game is based on different IP. Probability: zero. 2. Does Paragon Studios have another dev team working on CoH2? No: there isn't the body count to do that. Probability: essentially zero. 3. Could NCSoft be working on a CoH2 without Paragon Studios. Theoretically possible, but essentially ridiculous. Probability: virtually zero. 4. Is it likely Paragon Studios would begin work on a sequel with the current CoH dev team? Very unlikely. The logistics would be a nightmare, and many of the senior developers took positions with the other dev team. Probability: < 1%. 5. Would Paragon Studios cease development on CoH to devote time to CoH2? Also unlikely. While Paragon Studios is generating revenue from CoH that's irrational. If it gets to the point they aren't, a sequel itself would be unlikely. Probability: < 1%. 6. Is there any other possible way for a CoH2 to be created within the next ten years? Not that I can see. Probability: < 1%. 7. Even if a CoH2 was miracled into existence, would it be compatible with CoH1? Nope. You don't make new games that are identical to old games, and without the current game's mechanics and power architecture, the game wouldn't be remotely compatible. Characters would not be portable or exchangeable. CoH2 would at best be connected by IP, but not by game mechanics or transferred characters. Probability of compatible CoH2: < 1%. |
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A few years ago an ex-Paragon Studios concept artist posted some CoH2 concept art on his blog. The post was quickly taken down but not before I had made copies of the pictures
I suspect I would get in trouble if I posted them here without getting permission from Paragon Studios and/or the artist but I'll say that many of the ideas appear to have been implemented in GR/Freedom and the stuff released on the Market.
As to the future? I think there is much that could be done with the CoH IP but probably not a CoH2 MMO as I think superheroes are still quite a niche market, especially outside of the US.
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Ok, I'll finally chime in:
There is no point to a CoH2. Period. None. Quit it.
Expanded argument: CoH2 would not let me move my characters. The Lore will not move with it. The Lore in CoH is what makes CoH go, besides the pew pew pew of the characters (or equivalent... perhaps it's bap bap bap or heal heal heal...)
CoH2 wouldn't even be CoH2, but Hero Corps or Supers On Ice or whatever it is, but it simply WILL NOT be CoH.
It'd be like XMen getting restarted from scratch, and NOTHING OF THE CURRENT XMEN being even remotely used.
Or, in other words, Tabula Rasa, say. *ugh*.
This, above all else, is why a CoH2 won't happen, and I just wish y'all'd get over it.
/If the wish is for CoH with better graphics? Ok, sure. But that's not CoH2, it's CoH Upgraded.
August 31, 2012. A Day that will Live in Infamy. Or Information. Possibly Influence. Well, Inf, anyway. Thank you, Paragon Studios, for what you did, and the enjoyment and camaraderie you brought.
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Well... perhaps I was premature about that whole 'signing off' thing... - 11-9-2012
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When people ask about / pine for $THIS_GAME 2.0, I think that's usually what they are thinking of. They want all the good things of the current game with all the sucky things fixed or changed. But the odds of the sequel being mechanically different mean that, most likely, you'll just get a game that's linked by IP and theme, but that has its own distinct list of good and bad things.|
Originally Posted by houtex
If the wish is for CoH with better graphics? Ok, sure. But that's not CoH2, it's CoH Upgraded.
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There's a great quote that I got from someone's sig here on the forums a long, long time ago, which I think is somewhat relevant.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses." -Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing CompilersPeople often think the best answer to making things better is always to start over and rebuild it from scratch. Sometimes it is. But you can't ignore that building anything, from an automobile to an organization to a set of game rules, involves costs and constraints that limit what you can deliver. The choices you make as you design and create it will reflect trade-offs that let you deliver the end goal within time, budget and (hopefully) vision. It's those trade-offs that give a product its high and low points.
When we ask for a sequel built from the ground up, we don't know what will be traded in and out. It might be a great game, but it won't necessarily be this game with all the warts removed. And that represents risk to its acceptance by and success with the existing community.
The point in that is not necessarily that it's a reason the designers' shouldn't create the sequel, but I think it's important for players to recognize what they're getting (or more accurately, what they might not be getting) when they ask for a sequel.
Edit: In case it wasn't clear, I was agreeing with houtex. I just used his quoted comment as a springboard for my post.
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Yes, character wipes in an existing game is TOTALLY the same thing as not allowing new transfers to a sequel. And we've all seen how much not allowing such transfers have hurt other sequels....oh, wait, it hasn't. Ever.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Do a character database wipe and see how well that argument holds up. Yes, some of us have played other games. I have a hard time imagining those of us who've been here for eight years and sunk thousands upon thousands of hours being willing to start over in a new game full time, however.
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No offense meant but ...
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The comments players posted in the past threads like this basically summon up the idea behind CoH2 (ATM
Inc some from this thread of population and the kind of tech we'll see.
I mean only recently (In game development terms) have we seen new tech come out (in terms of attacks animation) so we can still do quite a bit with what we have atm before launching something completely new.
I mean with the new "tech" what do players expect to see from CoH2?? Surprisingly people ask for it expecting "something" but never know what excatly. (Not saying you don't :P)
Plus - Bases - not really a good reason to create something new.
Currently we just need to sort out the bases within this game first and the devs are hopefully quietly working on it so we can get rebuilt bases in 2/3 issues time maybe 4??