Team with an Ice/Rad or Ice/Emp troller, you'll have plenty of time.
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H'mmm...|
Originally Posted by AshleyHudson
OMG, stop dying before I can kill you!
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The passive-aggression is strong in this one.
...I like it.
Yes, a buff to EM is much needed. Or a tweak, anyway. I understand the need to bring it into balance from its glory days, but I think the mistake that was made was that it affected play style greatly. It was a fast-moving, fluid-like set. Now it's wait times and late deliveries.
I'd have preferred a reduction in damage over elongated animations (so long as the DPS remained the same as it is now). As it stands, my Ice/EM tank will remain shelved until it can be made decent again.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
What does it matter as long as they're dead?
Save the slow heavy hitters for the EBs and AVs of the world.
Or play Katana, which has the distinction of having every single attack animate in less than two seconds.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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Well, for starters, if they're dead and you landed ET, you still lose health.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
What does it matter as long as they're dead?
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For finishers, if you're only helpful advice is that someone should play another set, then obviously EM needs looking at.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Fair enough. I'll grant that there should be some sort of target=alive check of some sort to stop the health loss. Better yet drop the health loss entirely.
The actual advice, though, to not use the long animation attacks on short lived targets, I'll stand by (for any AT, not just melee ones).
Thunderstrike from electric melee falls into the same trap, and shadow maul, vengeful slice, and one thousand cuts do as well. Animations above 3 seconds aren't common but they're not reserved to EM alone (and that's only total focus. Energy transfer's animation time is actually comparable to KO blow, and I don't hear SS players complaining that they're always KO blowing a corpse).
One of my main characters is Energy Melee and another is an /energy blaster who I love to blap with and I really haven't noticed this problem.
(Not saying EM couldn't use a little something else - kinetic melee is very much energy melee II leaving the original looking dated - but not for this)
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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Probably because KO is still nearly half a second faster. But I'll let that slide, because perception can feel very different when you're waiting.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Animations above 3 seconds aren't common but they're not reserved to EM alone (and that's only total focus. Energy transfer's animation time is actually comparable to KO blow, and I don't hear SS players complaining that they're always KO blowing a corpse).
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Now, I get what you're saying: Don't use it on small targets. But let's think about this. How fun is it to go up to a full health minion and one-shot him? It's pretty darn fun! I mean, you can't possibly blame people for wanting to feel that kind of power. Can you!?
Now, lets say you're just on a team of three. And you've got mobs galore all around. You pick yourself out a little guy, and you say, "Oh yeah, that there's a b-e-a-uh-yooty!" You've queued yourself up, you've lined the guy up, and you're going into full acti-
DEAD.
"Oops, my bad, bro!", says your SS pal. "I didn't see you targeting that guy."
It's inevitable. People can't help but kill your target. It's like you're some kind of magic magnet for getting NPCs targeted. It's like your friends are targeting through you all the time. Or at least, that's how it feels.
So I get what you're saying. But there's a reason people play the way they do, and it's to feel like their character is powerful at what they do. If you have to reserve all your hitters for long boss fights and AVs, where they don't feel as powerful, then it gets pretty un-fun fast.
Now, I say all that, but I still feel the biggest mistake in EM's changes wasn't bringing its DPS in check. It was completely changing THE FEEL of the set. Things were fast. Things were fluid. You got your business going and it was MOVE MOVE MOVE. Not anymore.
They would have been better off lowering the damage and keeping the animation times the same. Yeah, people would have reeled over the nerf, just the same, but you wouldn't have completely changed the way they had to play the set. And that's a real shame.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
What I love about EM apologists is...
1) When you argue the DPS isn't that great, they say "no! look! it's actually almost at the top!" (if you stick to SOs or common IOs and ignore ET's -hp).
2) When you argue there's overkill on minions/lieuts, they say "well you shouldn't use ET and TF on minions and lieuts".
Yet 1) and 2) can't work together, because 1) assumes optimal ET and TF usage. Remove ET and TF, and EM is close to the bottom even on SOs.
ON the plus side, Zwilly, in one of the coffee talks, has said that they know that EM is in dire need of a buff/boost/re imaging.
On the down side, they have said that there are no immediate plans for this buff/boost/re imaging to happen.
It is like "yes, we know it is broken, but we need to form a council to form a board to form a committee to form a consensus to think about looking in its general direction". It is like something out of an English comedy.
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Originally Posted by Evangaurt
...
On the down side, they have said that there are no immediate plans for this buff/boost/re imaging to happen. It is like "yes, we know it is broken, but we need to form a council to form a board to form a committee to form a consensus to think about looking in its general direction". It is like something out of an English comedy. |
At least it doesn't require an "act of congress"....
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
I hope they let me co-chair the committee to decide the color of the book that that council's meeting notes. It would be the most exciting thing ever.
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Only if I can be the committee lead for choosing paper stock. People never think about paper stock!
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Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind
I hope they let me co-chair the committee to decide the color of the book that that council's meeting notes. It would be the most exciting thing ever.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Y'know, I don't have numbers, all I have is observation. Yes, I know how flawed that is, but no matter who or what I'm attacking, I seem to be hitting dead things a lot more often than with any other set. I thought a little self-deprecating humor might be in order since others among you are far better at articulating the issues than I am but I still wanted to weigh in.
I'm new to EM. I have an SS brute and an StJ brute and I love love love both of them (StJ more than SS right now). I want to love my EM too. I'll see about paying extra attention to when I use my slower attacks. That's probably the best I can do for now.
BTW, you guys are all too excited about picking paper bond and notebook color for this meeting about a discussion over a conversation regarding idle speculation around potential ideas for...well...stuff. Possibly concerning EM. But equally possible is that it may be about the design of the doilies for committee members' cakes.
Anyway, if you see poor little Shockpoint running around on Protector, try to save her something to punch, will you? Try not to roll your eyes when I start screaming with joy at landing a solid hit. 
- Ashley
[Rocker Girl (Earth/Earth Dom); Sweet Venom (Plant/Time Ctrl)]
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Not having numbers isn't really flawed. Especially when you're just talking about the feel of a set (numbers are important, don't get me wrong). And EM lost a lot of it's feel. A lot more than it should have. I found your OP to be pretty humurous, so job well done.|
Originally Posted by AshleyHudson
Y'know, I don't have numbers, all I have is observation. Yes, I know how flawed that is, but no matter who or what I'm attacking, I seem to be hitting dead things a lot more often than with any other set.
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| But equally possible is that it may be about the design of the doilies for committee members' cakes. |
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Anyway, if you see poor little Shockpoint running around on Protector, try to save her something to punch, will you? Try not to roll your eyes when I start screaming with joy at landing a solid hit.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
nostalgia..... poor poor EM/RG how you broke the game.
EMs punishment was cruel. You can still play it.. but it will never ever ever be as good as it was.
Tru
Great game while it lasts.
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I work in a print shop. I ALWAYS think about paper stock.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Only if I can be the committee lead for choosing paper stock. People never think about paper stock!
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On topic, I have a couple EM characters and I definitely agree that something needs to be done about the animation times. It is like Dragon Ball Z taking several episodes for a single attack to charge up. On the other hand, I think it does have a satisfying thwack! when it (eventually) hits.
Here is my idea to improve EM. All of the long animating attacks will apply a sleep immediately once the power is clicked. That way it is simulating the target falling asleep waiting for you to finish your attack.
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I like that. I might have to steal this for a concept toon....I wonder if I could tie a bind to change my costume when I use energy transfer then back when I use anything else. Mainly so I can go from regular hair to the tall spikey and maybe throw an aura ontop.
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Originally Posted by Prexx
On topic, I have a couple EM characters and I definitely agree that something needs to be done about the animation times. It is like Dragon Ball Z taking several episodes for a single attack to charge up. On the other hand, I think it does have a satisfying thwack! when it (eventually) hits.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
"My Thugs/Pancake can solo Breast Cancer!"
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Thinking about melee sets..EM is the only one that seems to get WORSE as you lvl up, at least for me. As a lowbie you can use energy punch and bonesmasher quite well, and everyone ELSE having few attacks means you actually..get some kills! But later, when other sets get there lightning rods and throw spines and footstomps..you get 2 attacks than take forever to animate and recharge. Lovely.
Just wait till incarnate powers! Then at least you get a decent aoe and can kill stuff. Unless..you accidently hit et or tf BEFORE using your own Judgement..and now 5 have just hit that spawn..
I wont reply to anyone specifically, was going to but the thread seems to keep a consistent line of thought. I will answer to that instead.
First off, a bit of data, the following are the 15 slowest single target attacks in the game, excluding Assassinations and Snipes:
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The numbers you see are Arcanaville's ArcanaTime and DPA, based off ArcanaTime.Cast DPA Attack 3.43 1.04 Energy Melee > Total Focus 3.04 1.17 Kinetic Melee > Concentrated Strike 3.04 0.91 Staff Fighting > Sky Splitter 2.90 1.57 Energy Melee > Energy Transfer 2.90 0.73 Sonic Attack > Shout 2.77 0.76 Dual Pistols > Executioner's Shot 2.64 0.62 Stone Melee > Hurl Boulder 2.64 0.62 Super Strength > Hurl 2.64 0.50 Ice Blast > Bitter Freeze Ray 2.64 0.62 Dual Blades > Vengeful Slice 2.51 1.15 Fiery Melee > Greater Fire Sword 2.51 1.28 Titan Weapons > Rend Armor 2.38 1.50 Super Strength > Knockout Blow 2.38 1.34 Street Justice > Crushing Uppercut 2.24 1.23 Dark Melee > Midnight Grasp
Total Focus is indeed the slowest, single attack in the game, if you exclude Snipes and Assassinations, that is. Many consider these to be broken, and are now in the process of being revised, but it's important to note the reason they are being revised is not just cast time, but horrendous DPA.
The list above has a few interesting things to look at. For one: the best 2 attacks on that list are Energy Transfer and Knockout Blow. Knockout Blow is basically Total Focus with shorter animation, but its important to note that Knockout Blow suffers a penalty to its performance: its recharge is 25% higher than it should be, based on damage/recharge formulas.
There are certainly at least 2 sets with attacks slower than Energy Transfer. One tie-up in Sonic Attack, and quite a few contenders in Dual Pistols, Stone Melee, Super Strength, Ice Blast and Dual Blades that are not only slow but have very weak DPA.
Point being here? Total Focus and Energy Transfer are slow, yes. But they are not weak by any measure.
On the overkill bit... I face this all the time. With all my characters. This is more an issue with content than with the powers. Insane AoE capabilities of too many sets, plus extremely frail minion NPCs result in teams that just eat alive the targets. This is something that came up in a difficulty thread the other day. It would be nice if team content had higher HP.
Perhaps if the team multiplier (for actual teams) granted all enemies an HP buff for every team member past 2, at least past level 40.
But back on track, the point is, it's not an issue exclusive to EM, and I am hard pressed to think EM gets punished more for it. EM, even from the start, was never an extremely fast set. It had only two attacks that were considered fast: the old Energy Transfer and Energy Punch. The rest was always slow, relative to other sets.
It can be argued that Energy Transfer change was too disruptive, that a damage change would had been ideal, but we would still be complaining today about Total Focus.
Im not dismissing entirely the set performance, though. It may be nice if something else happened. The set has anemic AoE capabilities (although it's not the only set that has this issue, any old set with just a PBAoE and no cones suffer the issue... Super Strength exempt due to Rage.)
There are various things that can be done for the set. One thing that may please some is to change the animation of Total Focus and Energy Transfer to shorter ones. Problem is, those powers would become too good and may skyrocket the set's performance too far. Damage decreases may be required and the set would lose it's hard hitting nature.
Many here are complaining about the animations, but we have to acknowledge people that love the slow/hard hitting nature of the set are not in the forums taking part of this discussion, and it's not a good idea to just change things on them to lure them into the forums to complain.
So I would avoid such a change. Another option would be to compensate. As I stated, the set suffers issues with AoE. What if these heavy hitting attacks also did splash damage? Now, there is a tad of an issue here: cottage rule. By changing the attacks into targeted AoE you force an IO change. There is one work around that: lets keep them "officially" single target, but give them a conditional bonus that causes splash damage.
This is the idea that crosses my mind: lets borrow from Street Fighting and Water Blast, add a new mechanic to the set called... Energy Overload.
Energy Punch, Bone Smasher and Barrage all generate an "energy load". You can have up to 3 "energy loads"
- Medium Energy Load
- High Energy Load
- Energy Overload
- Whirling Hands: Inflicts extra damage.
- Total Focus: Splash AoE, higher splash damage with higher energy loads.
- Energy Transfer: Splash AoE and self-damage reduction. More overload, stronger splash and less self-damage, all the way to no self-damage at max Energy load.
- Stun: does extra damage (at medium load it will hit for standard ST attack damage, at Overload it hits for a tad extra.)
Using any of these also consumes the energy load, so you need to build it again if you want to do this once more.
- Set gets a modernized feel.
- AoE issues get addressed.
- Set retains its slow/heavy hitting nature.
- Issues hitting foes in teams that are dead may be alleviated by having splash damage still be useful.
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I like everything you're saying. But this one bit I feel is a bit two-sided. The slow hard hitting nature of the set was not the original nature of the set. So I don't think we have to avoid particular changes just because some people might like the animations that are not part of the original design. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
Many here are complaining about the animations, but we have to acknowledge people that love the slow/hard hitting nature of the set are not in the forums taking part of this discussion, and it's not a good idea to just change things on them to lure them into the forums to complain.
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And I'll agree, people will still complain, but faster animation time and lower damage would probably go a long way with making the set "feel" like its old self. Though I think ET should retain a higher DPA than similar powers due to the self damage.
And yes, some more AoE goodness sounds like a GREAT idea.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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The set, as it existed, was broken. Or at least Energy Transfer was. With Arcanatime, Energy Transfer did 3.84 dpa. That's insane.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
I like everything you're saying. But this one bit I feel is a bit two-sided. The slow hard hitting nature of the set was not the original nature of the set. So I don't think we have to avoid particular changes just because some people might like the animations that are not part of the original design.
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It had to change. Either the damage was lowered drastically (removing the one option for extremely heavy hitting melee set in the game), or slow it down retaining the heavy hitting nature.
A change today would not just be about changing a particular animation. It would be about forcing a different animation and way lower damage and (not or) a recharge penalty not unlike the one seen in Knockout Blow.
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| And I'll agree, people will still complain, but faster animation time and lower damage would probably go a long way with making the set "feel" like its old self. |
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3.84 DPA is lower than Assassin's Strike with an incredibly easy 2 stacks of Assassin's Focus. Which came as a recent change to an AT that specializes in hard hitting single target damage with lesser/limited AoE. EM is a set that specializes in hard hitting single target damage with lesser/limited AoE... hrm. So recently, the devs decided that it was entirely balanced to provide an entire AT this "broken" DPA in every primary that exists for them.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
The set, as it existed, was broken. Or at least Energy Transfer was. With Arcanatime, Energy Transfer did 3.84 dpa. That's insane.
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The self-damage is the cost for a lower endurance cost and recharge, and I agree that paying it when hitting a dead target should be considered a bug.
KOB's longer recharge compared to Total Focus (and Seismic Smash... and Concentrated Strike...) is because it was originally balanced as a control power and not a damage power and wasn't changed a long time ago, not because it was a balance decision compared to other sets. KOB also happens to have a longer range than those other powers, which seemed to be the justification for Crushing Uppercut's longer recharge rather than just fixing KOB at the time.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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With Arcanatime, the cast time of Focussed Assasin's Slash is 1.848 and damage scale 5.52 for a DPA of 2.987. 77.8% of the old Energy Transfer DPA.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
3.84 DPA is lower than Assassin's Strike with an incredibly easy 2 stacks of Assassin's Focus.
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Perhaps you are thinking both versions of Assasinations do the same damage? That would not be the case, though.
Mind you, 2.987 is still high, but it is tied to conditions. You must start stacking Assassin Focus and once you have it, if what you are fighting is not dead by your own solo hand you can execute this attack (or switch targets.)
Old Energy Transfer, though, was able to achieve much more DPA, without conditions, just jumping in and attacking.
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| Which came as a recent change to an AT that specializes in hard hitting single target damage with lesser/limited AoE. EM is a set that specializes in hard hitting single target damage with lesser/limited AoE... hrm. So recently, the devs decided that it was entirely balanced to provide an entire AT this "broken" DPA in every primary that exists for them. |
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| KOB's longer recharge compared to Total Focus (and Seismic Smash... and Concentrated Strike...) is because it was originally balanced as a control power and not a damage power and wasn't changed a long time ago, not because it was a balance decision compared to other sets. |
We like to think that recharge dictates the damage of an attack. Truth is, the original leaked spreadsheets show the recharge of a power is based off damae. They would decide how much the attack would hit for, and the recharge was based off that.
My point is, the recharge staying higher than it should be was no accident. Even if DPA was not fully understood at the time, it was clear to the dev at the time (Geko) that the power should not be hitting for so much damage as regularly as the recharge formula dictated. Not on a set that had Rage in it, at least. If I recall correctly, before KoB was turned into an actual attack, it had only a 20s recharge (just like Energy Melee's Stun.)
The origins of that are irrelevant, though. At the end of the day, we are "lucky" that it actually balances out quite nicely. The mixture of rather low DPA attacks plus high recharge in KoB keep SS in check.
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| KOB also happens to have a longer range than those other powers, which seemed to be the justification for Crushing Uppercut's longer recharge rather than just fixing KOB at the time. |
Crushing Uppercut simply happened to be a copy and paste of KoB with some later modifications and the range never considered an important thing to change.
OMG, stop dying before I can kill you!
- Ashley
[Rocker Girl (Earth/Earth Dom); Sweet Venom (Plant/Time Ctrl)]