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OK, just looked at it again, I was not aware of it being different accross sets. I didnt select one to pick the longest cast, I simply picked the first one I saw in City of Data.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
You're not looking at Assassin's Strike, which has a 1 second animation instead of selecting (one of) the longest of the bunch at 1.67 seconds.
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| You're also ignoring the statement from Synapse saying he was going to normalize them all to 1 second when it was brought up that the blade animations, Street Justice's animation, and Kinetic Melee's animations were all different than the 1 second norm; that second part is why I'm pretty sure that the case holds for stating that they gave an entire AT a power that has better DPA than the old ET. |
The reference will never work to sell the increased single target DPS that would come from reversing the ET change, especially if the AT that has that tool happens also to have the set. Energy Transfer for stalkers even has a 100% chance to grant Assassin's Focus. An EM Stalker would be able to land in 2 seconds 1093 points of damage. 1541.5 if they hit Build Up.
That alone would block the change and I doubt the devs will only change the power for Tankers and Brutes (if you were able to convince them they deserve un-conditional assassination)
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| Secondly, providing self-damage for your best DPA attack isn't a reduction in survival in order to achieve more damage to you? |
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I hope I didn't give you the impression that I didn't think it was broken. I think I stated as much early in this thread that I understood the need for balance. I also don't want it to be reverted back to what it was.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
The set, as it existed, was broken. Or at least Energy Transfer was. With Arcanatime, Energy Transfer did 3.84 dpa. That's insane.
It had to change. Either the damage was lowered drastically (removing the one option for extremely heavy hitting melee set in the game), or slow it down retaining the heavy hitting nature. A change today would not just be about changing a particular animation. It would be about forcing a different animation and way lower damage and (not or) a recharge penalty not unlike the one seen in Knockout Blow. |
I'm only speaking about the feel of the set and the way it plays in style compared to what it was. Long animation times have a way of really changing style up quite a bit. In ways different to damage reduction.
Hell, I'd be happy with just a middle ground compromise. Shorten the animation times a little and reduce the damage a little. It doesn't have to be the same animation times as before. EM can keep the DPA it has now in ST damage, but those animation times in your big hitters makes them very undesirable. Especially when your target keeps dying.
Side bar: I get what you're saying about minion health and HP adjustments for large teams, but I find that solution to be less likely to happen.
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| Lower the damage and I personally would delete my energy melee characters (a shield tank and an energy/energy brue). But I don't say this only based on personal preference, the set identity was always heavily focused around it's heavy hitting nature. To the point Castle decided changing the animation was less intrusive than nerfing the damage. |
And while Castle's reasons for changes were in good intentions, the massive amount of complaining for EM to get a boost could imply it wasn't that much less intrusive.
We've already got an Energy damage set with long animations (KM), let's not have two.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
As a player with a level 50 EM/WP brute (created well after the original EM nerf), I do think the set could use some help. It offers decent single-target survival with its stacking stuns, but it just gets painful to play as the spawn size increases. That was the first character I made, so I didn't see anything wrong with this at the time. Now, I'm leveling a claws brute, and the difference is just absurd - knockdown gives it just as good survival, spin actually kills things, and the only really slow attacks I've got are all AoE.
What energy melee needs is, however, less clear. My suggestions would be:
1: Change the energy transfer animation - make it deal its damage near the start of the animation time. This would make it much less frustrating to use, without changing the overall DPA of the attack. Of course, I'd like a faster animation... but if I can't get that, at least make it less annoying to use in teams.
2: Make whirling hands better - larger radius, more damage. If it's going to be the only AoE in the set, it should be at least as powerful as claws' spin (when it's up; claws, of course, has its baked-in recharge time bonus.)
Alternatively, Starsman's energy overload notion would work; though I'd suggest a different set of effects for charges:
Whirling Hands: more damage and a larger radius.
Total Focus: I'd make this power generate charges at one or two stacks, and consume them at three for extra magnitude of stun.
Stun: extra damage, as per Starsman's original notion, looks fine to me - though I'd also make this power neither generate nor consume charges; it just does extra damage if you have charges.
Energy Transfer: generates charges at one or two stacks; consumes them at three for a very fast animation.
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Actually... this may be an interesting reconceptualization of the power. I am not too fond of the self damage bit of the attack, but the concept of the attack... well is that.|
Originally Posted by Vardra
1: Change the energy transfer animation - make it deal its damage near the start of the animation time. This would make it much less frustrating to use, without changing the overall DPA of the attack.
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Think this concept:
Energy Transfer steals energy from your target, hurting them. You then channel that energy into your fists, landing a heavy blow.
The attack costs 10.192 endurance, that is what a 1.96 ds attack would cost, leaving 2.6 damage for "free".
Visually, the attack should do the same animation, however, now during the stage where your arms are charging up in power, an FX is also running in your target an a very fast DOT is draining a total of 1.96 ds worth of health from your foe. Once you are charged up, you finish the animation releasing the "end free" 2.6 endurance.
If it was mechanically possible, Energy Transfer should interrupt the animation and not finish charging should the attack miss (if the enemy is hit but dies you still execute the entire thing.)
It still would be the same attack, but may lead to make people feel they are executing 2 attacks with one click instead of feeling they wasted one big attack.
Balance wise, its the same as now (other than the removal of self-damage.)
I still would add the enegy load changes I listed above.
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| 2: Make whirling hands better - larger radius, more damage. |
Claws has a different balancing formula used that is more based around cast tiem than recharge.
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Alternatively, Starsman's energy overload notion would work; though I'd suggest a different set of effects for charges: Whirling Hands: more damage and a larger radius. |
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It's hard to reach a compromise with individuals that are not even aware the conversation is being held on their behalf. The best compromise I can think is one that would not affect those players but address the issues.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
One sentiment doesn't negate the other, but obviously there are plenty of people on both sides of the fence. Maybe a more compromised approach would be better.
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| And while Castle's reasons for changes were in good intentions, the massive amount of complaining for EM to get a boost could imply it wasn't that much less intrusive. |
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| We've already got an Energy damage set with long animations (KM), let's not have two. |
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That's really not a good excuse for why Spin does almost 90% more damage than some other Brute PBAoEs. Yes, Spin doesn't have a secondary effect, but neither does Fire Sword Circle, and it still does more damage that that (even including all DoT tics). And it still recharges faster and costs less endurance. So it's getting both an Endurance discount, a Recharge discount, and some sort of bonus damage.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Due to game balance rules, unless there are special mechanics in place (like I sugested above) this cant happen. In fact, increasing the radius will result in lower damage.
Claws has a different balancing formula used that is more based around cast tiem than recharge. |
Other sets with only a single AoE get some sort of bonus on the AoE. Stone and SS get their radius increased, for instance.
Sets are balanced in totality, and it's not like Energy Melee is topping the lists already in either ST or AoE damage. It's pretty weak in AoE, and mediocre in ST damage (and those calcs tend to ignore the corpse-bombing factor). Making Whirling Hands do 25% more damage wouldn't break the set in the slightest.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Err... plenty of people have complained about animation time. They're present in the forums.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
It's hard to reach a compromise with individuals that are not even aware the conversation is being held on their behalf. The best compromise I can think is one that would not affect those players but address the issues.
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Plenty of people complain about dead targets. How much damage do you do to a dead target? None. So people who have complained about damage are present on the forums too.
I think adjustments to damage and animation times to address the feel of the set while keeping it balanced is a completely legitimate approach.
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| That's because we never got to see the reaction to the power having it's damage lowered to 1.7 dmage. |
Now, don't take me wrong, I'm really trying to work with you on this. But making suggestions that require adding completely new mechanics to the set are less likely an option than straight up tweaking numbers. Maybe my suggestion isn't so far from viable.
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| We have various sets with slow animations. Super Strength shows twice in that list above (15 slowest single target attacks in the game.) |
*I know there's Electric Melee, but it that set has a lot more AoE potential. It already has a different play style because of that.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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It's not a good justification, but it's the reason.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
That's really not a good excuse for why Spin does almost 90% more damage than some other Brute PBAoEs. Yes, Spin doesn't have a secondary effect, but neither does Fire Sword Circle, and it still does more damage that that (even including all DoT tics). And it still recharges faster and costs less endurance. So it's getting both an Endurance discount, a Recharge discount, and some sort of bonus damage.
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I don't know the full details of the claws damage formula, but I think there was some buzz from Stupid_Fanboy or Arcanaville about it either being used wrong or it just being flawed for AoE.
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| Other sets with only a single AoE get some sort of bonus on the AoE. Stone and SS get their radius increased, for instance. |
Now, going back into the power and looking at numbers, the power (Whirling Hands) is actually doing less damage than it should for it radius. It should either have a 10ft radius or inflict 1.18 scale damage. I knew there was an issue there but intentionally avoided it because I thought it was the other way and it was doing too much damage, dont want to encourage any nerfs
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| Sets are balanced in totality, and it's not like Energy Melee is topping the lists already in either ST or AoE damage. It's pretty weak in AoE, and mediocre in ST damage (and those calcs tend to ignore the corpse-bombing factor). Making Whirling Hands do 25% more damage wouldn't break the set in the slightest. |
A good reason to break a rule: "this power is special and does conditional damage based off this or that".
A bad reason to break the rules: "I just want this set to do more damage"
Right now, the best the rules allow is for 18.18% more damage for Whirling Hands. It's not about breaking the set, it's about following the rules. If we give the power conditional damage... well then the sky is the limit.
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I meant the group of people that are happy with things as they are and are not aware some one wants them to compromise on lower damage.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Err... plenty of people have complained about animation time. They're present in the forums.
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| Now, don't take me wrong, I'm really trying to work with you on this. But making suggestions that require adding completely new mechanics to the set are less likely an option than straight up tweaking numbers. Maybe my suggestion isn't so far from viable. |
Gravity didnt get just tweaked, it got new mechanics.
Stalkers didnt just get tweaked. They got new mechanics.
Snipes are not just tweaked, they get new mechanics.
I think it's clear now: Synpase and Hawk love new mechanics. Perhaps because they also have a side effect of "modernizing" the feel of things the same time they are improved.
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There are more exceptions to the formula for 14 second recharge PBAoEs than there are powers that follow it (two: Whirling Hands and Whirling Axe), either due to DoT (Whirling Sword, Lotus Drops), higher damage (Spin, Dragon's Tail, Whirling Mace), larger radius (Tremor), multiple of the above (Whirling Smash) or simply changing the recharge and damage at the same time when the power was created to justify the damage increase when I brought this exact same point up during beta (Burst). Spin doesn't fit for Scrappers either, but has a higher damage than it would even with the "faster recharge" secondary effect that wasn't used for the Brute version. I suggested the last time I brought it up that maybe the formula should be revisited if they have to keep making exceptions rather than following it.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Due to game balance rules, unless there are special mechanics in place (like I sugested above) this cant happen. In fact, increasing the radius will result in lower damage.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Mechanically, I don't think we can increase the radius of a PBAoE attack.
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So you can't increase the radius based on the condition but you can simulate it by either using a different power or just turning off one radius and turning on the other. The in-game power information would simply list the largest possible one, the way it does for every Tanker attack, Thunder Strike, Lightning Rod, etc.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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As i noted in a previous post, this formula was not adhered to religiously at first but has been much more enforced in recent years. You will have a hard time convincing Synapse to just break it.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
There are more exceptions to the formula for 8' PBAoEs than there are powers that follow it (two: Whirling Hands and Whirling Axe), either due to DoT (Whirling Sword, Lotus Drops), higher damage (Spin, Dragon's Tail)
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Mind you, as I corrected in a previous post: Whirling Hands actually does less damage than it should. The same was true for Martial Arts at one point and it got buffed to the right damage value thanks to a lot of effort from Arcanaville poking Castle over the issue. Whirling Hands, as it exists today, should do as much damage as Dragon's Tail.
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But what if the reason is "I want to improve damage in an area this set greatly under-performs?"
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Originally Posted by Starsman
A bad reason to break the rules: "I just want this set to do more damage"
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Whirling Smash has a 15' AoE, does scale 1.15 damage ignoring the DoT secondary, and is a very recent creation.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
As i noted in a previous post, this formula was not adhered to religiously at first but has been much more enforced in recent years. You will have a hard time convincing Synapse to just break it.
Mind you, as I corrected in a previous post: Whirling Hands actually does less damage than it should. The same was true for Martial Arts at one point and it got buffed to the right damage value thanks to a lot of effort from Arcanaville poking Castle over the issue. Whirling Hands, as it exists today, should do as much damage as Dragon's Tail. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I see. Well if we're talking about a group that we're not sure exists and putting value on that, then no suggestions made in this thread could be listened to. I don't know if that's a fair way to look at things.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I meant the group of people that are happy with things as they are and are not aware some one wants them to compromise on lower damage.
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I think its more likely. Just look what the devs have done so far. Gravity didnt get just tweaked, it got new mechanics. Stalkers didnt just get tweaked. They got new mechanics. Snipes are not just tweaked, they get new mechanics. |
And as I know very little about Gravity, I'm afraid you have me at a disadvantage. What new mechanic did it gain? (not that I don't believe you)
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Gravity got the Impact bit as a semi-combo system that would give some powers more damage.
There were also wholesale changes to Dimension Shift and tweaks to Wormhole that I would consider more significant, but technically a gimmick was added (along with the other changes).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I must look closer at Titan Weapons (have not yet) but the set has a few set of internal rulesets like bonus range and (if i recall correctly) bonus damage in some attacks, my guess to compensate for the low DPA. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Whirling Smash has a 15' AoE, does scale 1.15 damage ignoring the DoT secondary, and is a very recent creation.
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If you think you can convince Synapse the entire Energy Melee set deserves a whole new exceptional rule that applies accross the set, no one stops you. I would love to hear the argument that may convince anyone of that extreme.
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Then in that case, wholesale changes and tweaks to Whirling Hands could be made. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Gravity got the Impact bit as a semi-combo system that would give some powers more damage.
There were also wholesale changes to Dimension Shift and tweaks to Wormhole that I would consider more significant, but technically a gimmick was added (along with the other changes). |
I guess if a new mechanic was introduced that would be ok, I don't want to be the equivalent of an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn and scared of the internet. But I'd prefer to see animation times reduced either way. Then again, if we're talking about bonus damage to powers from a buff mechanic, then you could reduce the animation for ET and TF and bring down the damage. Then regain that damage back with enough build up.
Still, that might step on some KM toes with it's Power Siphon mechanic.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Whirling Smash has a 1 second animation as well. >.>
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Originally Posted by Starsman
I must look closer at Titan Weapons (have not yet) but the set has a few set of internal rulesets like bonus range and (if i recall correctly) bonus damage in some attacks, my guess to compensate for the low DPA.
If you think you can convince Synapse the entire Energy Melee set deserves a whole new exceptional rule that applies accross the set, no one stops you. I would love to hear the argument that may convince anyone of that extreme. |
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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As I said: internal set rules. If there are any, they are likely set wide and not applied to powers at will. Another example of what I mean by "following the rules".|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Whirling Smash has a 1 second animation as well. >.>
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Not too unlike claws. I have not looked at the sets carefully enough, hopefully I'll have a chance to check all the post GR sets during this week.... once I'm done with my move.
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You can be sure there are players that love the power as is, animation and all. I need no evidence to prove this. The fact that there are players that may like things the way they are is one of the reason the cottage rule exists. Just look at the blast nuke threads. Despite the proposed changes being a buff, we are seeing a lot of noise from people that were not complaining before, people that liked the power being random and potentially killing X or Y, even if it also meant potentially NOT doing it.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
I see. Well if we're talking about a group that we're not sure exists and putting value on that, then no suggestions made in this thread could be listened to. I don't know if that's a fair way to look at things.
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Again, that's why the cottage rule exists. It was, in some ways, broken to nerd ET those years ago, but thats how strong they felt it was OP.
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*raises hand* Evidence. ET is my favorite animation in the game. Favorite. I was prepared to hate it on principle because of the animation time change and what it did to my tanker's burst damage but instead I was enthralled by it. I use it EVERY time it's up. Whether the minion has 1% health left and will be dead before animation ends or not.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
You can be sure there are players that love the power as is, animation and all. I need no evidence to prove this.
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I both like and don't like the DoT during the frontload part of the animation suggestion. I like that seeing orange numbers sooner will make the attack feel less 'wasted'. I don't like reducing the satisfying smash orange number at the end. I love DoT and I don't underestimate them, mechanically (fire melee is my second favorite melee set, after stone melee), but I tend to discard them as background noise visually. Incinerate *feels* like it does less damage to me than it actually does for that reason - all of fire melee does (despite my love for it).
I could get over it, though, if they threw in the 'nuke' animation that they easter egged into the overwhelming force proc, though.
You know, like this
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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Well, I think no matter what, people will bemoan any change. Ever. And I doubt I'll love every change that might come down the line for EM. But I'm willing to have a good open discussion. And if you're suggesting adding a gimmick to the set, I think cottage rules go out the window. So changing animations that some people might like now is totally on the table. Besides, some people liked the old animation.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Just look at the blast nuke threads. Despite the proposed changes being a buff, we are seeing a lot of noise from people that were not complaining before, people that liked the power being random and potentially killing X or Y, even if it also meant potentially NOT doing it.
Again, that's why the cottage rule exists. It was, in some ways, broken to nerd ET those years ago, but thats how strong they felt it was OP. |
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Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
*raises hand* Evidence.
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By the way, BruteSquad, I know I'll end up making suggestions you won't like, so no hard feelings.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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I am sure the old animation will just never return, not to this power. Any shorter animation would be an all new animation (for the power.) What are the odds people won't still think it's too slow, or that now the power hits for too little?|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Well, I think no matter what, people will bemoan any change. Ever. And I doubt I'll love every change that might come down the line for EM. But I'm willing to have a good open discussion. And if you're suggesting adding a gimmick to the set, I think cottage rules go out the window. So changing animations that some people might like now is totally on the table. Besides, some people liked the old animation.
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The "gimmick" I would propose is much more than a gimmick. Lots of players love that sort of gimmick, it makes sets feel more dynamic and it's the reason basically every new set created has some such gimmick. Also, the bonuses the gimmick would bring would be in line with what the set needs.
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Good! The whole gang is here! Let's dive into this mess! By the way, BruteSquad, I know I'll end up making suggestions you won't like, so no hard feelings. |
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I think I agreed that people will be upset no matter what. I even said I'll probably not be thrilled with every change. So as someone who's willing to take the bad with the good, I'm still going to ask for shorter animation times. EM was a fast moving set before, and that's what I liked about it. I'm only trying to bring it back to that. Not making it overpowered or anything like that. Just trying to restore a feel that the set had for a long time. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
I am sure the old animation will just never return, not to this power. Any shorter animation would be an all new animation (for the power.) What are the odds people won't still think it's too slow, or that now the power hits for too little?
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| The "gimmick" I would propose is much more than a gimmick. Lots of players love that sort of gimmick, it makes sets feel more dynamic and it's the reason basically every new set created has some such gimmick. Also, the bonuses the gimmick would bring would be in line with what the set needs. |
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| We can't take one single individual as representative of the whole. He may be able to give you a bit of the point of view, but he can't talk for others on what he would find acceptable. |
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| I like his point about a DoT-fication of Energy Transfer actually having an impact. His reasoning is very sound and the kind of thing people that just play for fun will be more likely to see fade away. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Perhaps you are thinking both versions of Assasinations do the same damage? That would not be the case, though.
Secondly, providing self-damage for your best DPA attack isn't a reduction in survival in order to achieve more damage to you?