The ONE thing you want to know...

Arcanaville · 07-19-2012 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Respite

I have long since been lobbying for the devs to make this info available to the playerbase (supposedly it's a word document, but now they have an internal wiki - or at least that's what Joe Morrissey told me at one of the HeroCons).

If it's no longer being used because it's outdated/irrelevant/whatever, let us see it as an example of how a game's canon lore was initially conceived. How much did THEY flesh out certain groups? Why were certain things changed (names, origins, whatever)? Why were certain things brainstormed but NOT developed?

However, I *SUSPECT* that the reason why they don't do it is because a) IF they ever go back and mine it for ideas, there's a major potential for spoilers, b) if they don't do it exactly as they detailed it (especially if the idea was a good one), the players will howl about it/bait and switch/we were lied to/not what was promised/insert other player rant here, or c) the players will immediately point out why they SHOULDN'T have used said idea because of how it breaks SOMETHING (canon lore/their own personal history/whatever).

Still wish they'd release it, though.

What they should do is create two versions of the lore guide. The internal one that has all the information that has been developed internally for internal backstory, and an external one that contains all of the lore established by the game and confirmed true by explicit usage. The former could be mined for story ideas and it could also be revised. The latter would be canonical, and no writer would be allowed to violate it under penalty of death.

I've said it before, but its worth repeating now. The powers designers have the cottage rule. Thou shalt not alter fundamental elements of powers in use by the players without a critical balance reason for doing so. I'm certain the programmers have an analogous rule: don't touch the fracking physics code it'll break everything, stupid. They can't just say "hey, I know we have all this code but my code is better and if it breaks the older code, mine's more important.

Everyone has to honor the principle that what they do today must respect and integrate with what's been created in the past. Except apparently the writers whose directive is "try not to contradict prior canon, UNLESS YOU HAVE A REALLY COOL IDEA! Then its ok.

The lore of the game should be forced to be just as self-consistent as the code of the game. Lore can crash just like servers can crash, and its no less detrimental. Unless you don't care about story, in which case it would be more cost effective to not spend money writing any.

There's a special test London cab drivers have to take to become licensed to drive a taxi. One element of the test involves being able to recite, from memory, the precise route from one location to another location without the use of maps which obeys the traffic requirements, including honoring one way roads. This must be done from memory and its pass-fail. I have often thought that writers whose job involves writing stories within an established canon should be required to take such a test.

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_Synchrotron_ · 07-19-2012 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

... and the Well attempts to commit suicide by not selecting a defender against the Battalion. That's the way out of the inconsistency?

While I might concur that a Defender would be optimal (especially given the upcoming changes to snipes in i24), I think that the choice of a Corruptor wouldn't be altogether suicidal....

Apologies, but I simply couldn't resist any longer.

You may now return to your previously scheduled thread.

Synchrotron, level 50 Radiation/Radiation Defender
Fighting crime on Champion since 2004

Arcanaville · 07-19-2012 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Synchrotron_

While I might concur that a Defender would be optimal (especially given the upcoming changes to snipes in i24), I think that the choice of a Corruptor wouldn't be altogether suicidal....

Clearly, the Well decided before doing the Coming Storm task force that it needed a tanker.

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Memphis_Bill · 07-19-2012 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

There's a special test London cab drivers have to take to become licensed to drive a taxi. One element of the test involves being able to recite, from memory, the precise route from one location to another location without the use of maps which obeys the traffic requirements, including honoring one way roads. This must be done from memory and its pass-fail. I have often thought that writers whose job involves writing stories within an established canon should be required to take such a test.

All writers shall henceforth be required to recite the number for the local taxi company and the route from the studio to the nearest bar, from memory....

See my Guides and Tutorials

Arcanaville · 07-19-2012 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill

All writers shall henceforth be required to recite the number for the local taxi company and the route from the studio to the nearest bar, from memory....

It should test knowledge that is less personal to writers, like their names or how many fingers they possess.

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Dark_Respite · 07-19-2012 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

There's a special test London cab drivers have to take to become licensed to drive a taxi. One element of the test involves being able to recite, from memory, the precise route from one location to another location without the use of maps which obeys the traffic requirements, including honoring one way roads. This must be done from memory and its pass-fail. I have often thought that writers whose job involves writing stories within an established canon should be required to take such a test.

DEAL! That's one test I KNOW I can do! The lore equivalent, I mean, I know jack about driving in London. (Except that I know Mekkanos can do better than I can, coz he beat me on the Trivia thing at HeroCon by ONE BLOODY QUESTION! No, I'm not bitter or anything...)

Michelle
aka
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378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)

Zemblanity · 07-19-2012 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Everyone has to honor the principle that what they do today must respect and integrate with what's been created in the past. Except apparently the writers whose directive is "try not to contradict prior canon, UNLESS YOU HAVE A REALLY COOL IDEA! Then its ok.

I'm actually relieved that's still the case, which implies that whoever's doing the writing is at least passingly familiar with the game's lore. A not so distant future might have that sentence morphed into a "don't bother reading the old lore, just come up with new stuff that seems cool."

Quote:

The lore of the game should be forced to be just as self-consistent as the code of the game. Lore can crash just like servers can crash, and its no less detrimental. Unless you don't care about story, in which case it would be more cost effective to not spend money writing any.

There's no going around the old chronology, which basically stole half a century's worth of comic book plots that should have been used to make actual missions, and it's getting hard to come up with new stories that haven't already happened in a badge or plaque inscription somewhere. Many of the game's plots and enemy groups are simply watered-down variations of things already described in the lore:
- Galaxy City - Bloody Bay
- Praetoria - Axis Earth
- The Council - Fifth Column
- The Coming Storm - Rikti invasion
Also concerning is the rising number of doppelgangers in Paragon City, because no one ever bothered to make an NPC database according to their jobs/roles/characteristics. Need a spunky young reporter for a mission arc? Just create one, ignoring the other twelve Amanda Vines' look-alikes already in the game.

Question is, can we live with it? To a point, yes. New and old writers should be expected to be somewhat familiar with the lore, but it's ok if they mess up every now and again (like Arbiter Hawk's old avatar mishap, for example, rolf), that's what beta feedback is for. That said, Moff's Law, as Venture suggested in the other thread, should be heavily enforced. There's a big difference between "I didn't know" and "I don't care".

Quote:

There's a special test London cab drivers have to take to become licensed to drive a taxi. One element of the test involves being able to recite, from memory, the precise route from one location to another location without the use of maps which obeys the traffic requirements, including honoring one way roads. This must be done from memory and its pass-fail. I have often thought that writers whose job involves writing stories within an established canon should be required to take such a test.

So, new writer, if you were to bring your toon from Atlas Plaza to Gimry Ridge, what route would you take?

Mazey · 07-20-2012 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venture

A glass of water that was full five minutes ago and is half-full now is different from two glasses of water, one full and one half-full.

Again, I was not using the phrase "two time-lines" in the same sense as you.

Quote:

Arcanaville has explained it from a more formal perspective which is out of context; the original has to do with sets of beliefs and philosophy of science. All of a person's beliefs form an interconnected web. It is possible to add any new belief to the web no matter how contradictory if one is willing to deform the rest of the web sufficiently. That's (unintentionally; wasn't what Quine or Duhem were writing about) what powers postmodernism in a nutshell; if you're willing to embrace any amount of nonsense you can believe anything. Arcanaville's interpretation (truth is dependent on context) is coming at it from a different angle but arrives at basically the same place.

In your example, the degenerate solution is to add "Wednesday and Thursday are interchangeable" to the mix. Is this complete nonsense? <bison>OF COURSE!</bison> So what?

Even assuming you're interpreting it all correctly, where's your proof that those two people were actually right? "Well they're smarter than you.

" isn't a valid answer.

Quote:

But even conceding that the example is irreconcilable doesn't get you anywhere really. The only types of inconsistencies you're willing to admit could exist in a story are the kind of childish mistakes that a proofreader would (or at least should) catch. If a writer oh, I don't know, says vampires can't have kids and then in the next book has a vampire knock up the lead babe, according to you this isn't inconsistent or bad writing as long as she can handwave it, and she'll always be able to do so. Your position admits of only the most trivial of objections and thus can be safely dismissed as an unreasonable criterion.

Yes, exactly. Calling a story inconsistent is either inaccurate, meaningless or pointless. My point is exactly that it's a bad way to criticise a story and, if you want to do so, there are far better options.

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Clave_Dark_5 · 07-20-2012 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zemblanity

Also concerning is the rising number of doppelgangers in Paragon City, because no one ever bothered to make an NPC database according to their jobs/roles/characteristics. Need a spunky young reporter for a mission arc? Just create one, ignoring the other twelve Amanda Vines' look-alikes already in the game.

On the other hand, running into Amanda Vines (or Lois Lane for that matter) every single freaking time would get mighty old. There's logical room for more than one (fill in role here) in the city and the islands and having the same handful of characters being involved in every story would just be silly.

King_Moloch · 07-20-2012 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourSpeed

"The ONE thing I want to know": Why do I bother?

The lore is SO screwed up, inconsistent, and sometimes directly conflicting,
that I don't think it's even possible to make coherent sense of it anymore.

I used to enjoy the lore...but it jumped the shark a long time ago.

At best, I find these days that I can only look at small pieces (like a short story),
and deliberately ignore trying to fit them sensibly into the bigger (ripped, torn, and
moth-eaten) tapestry that is the Game's Lore these days...

YMMV.

Regards,
4

The above is the correct response and attitude. It delivers the same amount of dedication to the lore that the development team did. They didn't care, I guess we shouldn't either?

Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!

Venture · 07-20-2012 07:28 AM

Quote:

Even assuming you're interpreting it all correctly, where's your proof that those two people were actually right?

The entire field of postmodernism?

Quote:

Calling a story inconsistent is either inaccurate, meaningless or pointless.

And the problem is that it's not any of those things, particularly in running continuities.

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Dark_Respite · 07-20-2012 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zemblanity

So, new writer, if you were to bring your toon from Atlas Plaza to Gimry Ridge, what route would you take?

If the interest is safety and per the old level restrictions on hazard zone access, following the streets, you could either head north and follow the main tunnel to Steel Canyon, proceeding west past the tram and Wentworths, with the University downhill and on your right, following the external War Wall until you were nearly to the Natural origin store...

OR

You could head west from Atlas Park, taking care while passing through the Argosy warehouse district, enter Perez Park, follow the streets (trying to avoid the gangs), and head first north then west, pass through the Zone Gate, and emerge directly behind Gimry Ridge in Steel Canyon.

Mind the Circle of Thorns, though - although if you do get injured, the hospital is just north of the Ridge, so you wouldn't have far to go to get back into the action.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
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378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)

Mazey · 07-20-2012 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venture

The entire field of postmodernism?

Oh good, more name dropping as though that means anything...
You winzzorz againz!!! Gratzorz!

Quote:

And the problem is that it's not any of those things, particularly in running continuities.

As far as I can tell, you're just responding with "NUH UH!"

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Issen · 07-20-2012 12:20 PM

I think the problem isn't with the Well, but the players attempting to put terms to it.

Maybe the Well doesn't "exist" in our dimension. That is, the Well isn't a physical object in a physical location. It existing in a location is it putting a part of itself there, but the Well itself, or rather, the entity we call the "Well" doesn't exist in our dimension.

The dimensions thing isn't an issue either. Scientifically speaking, there SHOULD be an infinite number of alternate realities. But what if there isn't? What if the number is just so big that it doesn't matter?

As for the "There HAS to be a dimension where this happened", that's not necessarily true. Statistics say that should be the case, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Again, we're applying limited human perception to something. In Darrin Wade's case, you forget that Darrin Wade's plan relied on two things: Statesman and Sister Psyche. That is, he needed a ridiculously powerful psychic with the ability to mind-ride in the manner of Psyche, and the Incarnate of Zeus. Also the MacGuffins needed to steal their power, etc, etc. His plan hinged on all these things existing and being useable.

In ANY dimension where ANY element of his plan either fails to exist or exists no longer means he can't succeed. He also has to be ALIVE as well. It could be the case that Primal Earth WAS the dimension where all the elements he needed for his plan happened to exist in the right order and exist at all. And then he failed.

I'll use an analogy, and then point out the problem with my own analogy. The dimensions are a bookshelf in a library. Each book is a dimension, pages being the universe, etc, etc. A library can have a ridiculous number of books, but it's still a finite number. The "Well" is the librarian who shelves, categorizes, sorts, etc each book. The "Well" has the power to do things to a "dimension", but still exists outside of the "dimension".

Of course there are problems: The Well makes itself known in some way in a dimension. A librarian can't write themselves into every book in the library unless they happen to be the author of every book (which would make that author Stephen King, ha ha). Also, Battalion's place in this analogy is nonsensical, because Battalion can somehow alter the "dimension" AND the "Well"

But this brings up an important point. The issue with the analogy is the problem with ANY analogy: it uses human terms and principles to try and put an explanation to something that may not fall into anything humans have the capability to categorize.

It also helps that we have NO information outside of the bare minimum regarding Battalion. We don't know what it is, what they do, how they work, etc. We know they have a physical presence, but it's possible they have an extra-dimensional presence as well. Heck, for all we know, Battalion is unique. There is only ONE Battalion, ever.

The fact is we don't know anything, because the writers are (obviously) with-holding that information. I think the issue is, that we're trying to explain/justify/etc something when we lack the information to do so properly. Rather than try and explain it ourselves with what limited information we have, why not wait for the writers to show us?

OneFrigidWitch · 07-20-2012 01:15 PM

Nemesis. Thats all. I want to know everything about Nemesis, especially how it relates to time/dimension hopping.

And I want to know just how excessively bad *** he is, and how he managed to be so bad *** without support from the Well......

-------
Hew in drag baby

Steele_Magnolia · 07-20-2012 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venture

The true story of Crimson, Indigo and Viridian.

This is what I'd like to know as my #1 lore question.

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Arcanaville · 07-20-2012 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Issen

The fact is we don't know anything, because the writers are (obviously) with-holding that information. I think the issue is, that we're trying to explain/justify/etc something when we lack the information to do so properly. Rather than try and explain it ourselves with what limited information we have, why not wait for the writers to show us?

In the next patch to the game, Positron in Steel Canyon is thirty feet tall. Do you:

a) Bug it

b) Wait a few years to see if the writers explain it

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Ironblade · 07-20-2012 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Clearly, the Well decided before doing the Coming Storm task force that it needed a tanker.

Why should the Well be different from any other noob?
"We can't start until we find a tank!"

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Cende · 07-20-2012 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

In the next patch to the game, Positron in Steel Canyon is thirty feet tall. Do you:

a) Bug it

b) Wait a few years to see if the writers explain it

c) Come on to the forums to complain about how the Devs screw up every little thing, point out that this is making it obvious that Posi is a Mary Sue who gets all the good toys, and joke about how it's an example of the size of Matt Miller's ego reflected in the game. And indicate that it's yet more proof that the rednames hate villains and pvp.

Dark_Respite · 07-20-2012 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

In the next patch to the game, Positron in Steel Canyon is thirty feet tall. Do you:

a) Bug it

b) Wait a few years to see if the writers explain it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cende

c) Come on to the forums to complain about how the Devs screw up every little thing, point out that this is making it obvious that Posi is a Mary Sue who gets all the good toys, and joke about how it's an example of the size of Matt Miller's ego reflected in the game. And indicate that it's yet more proof that the rednames hate villains and pvp.

d) Wait to see how long it takes before Dark_Respite actually manages to explain it in a semi-intelligent fashion in her book.

e) Start checking LinkedIn to see which COH programmer got fired NOT as a result of DELIBERATELY making Positron thirty feet tall in game... but for also increasing the size of Null the Gull so he can stand on Posi's head and cover him in gull poo.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
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378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)

Mekkanos · 07-20-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Respite

(Except that I know Mekkanos can do better than I can, coz he beat me on the Trivia thing at HeroCon by ONE BLOODY QUESTION! No, I'm not bitter or anything...)

Heh, I'd still love to have a rematch some day. I'm fairly certain you'd beat me, because I've gotten a bit rusty lore-wise but it would still be a lot of fun to do.

My arcs:

Title: Blitzkrieg
Arc ID: 3416

Title: Soldiers of Fortune
Arc ID: 4431

Title: The Rikti Accession
Arc ID: 278757

Arcanaville · 07-20-2012 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark_Respite

d) Wait to see how long it takes before Dark_Respite actually manages to explain it in a semi-intelligent fashion in her book.

One day I should write a book on CoH. I could call it &^!@ The Devs Said.

Of course, all the devs would have to be dead before then, or at least incapable of significant travel.

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Kirsten · 07-20-2012 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch

Nemesis. Thats all. I want to know everything about Nemesis, especially how it relates to time/dimension hopping.

And I want to know just how excessively bad *** he is, and how he managed to be so bad *** without support from the Well......

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SpyralPegacyon · 07-20-2012 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirsten

Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader

Entropy Legion * Hyperion Force * Hero Heights

Party_Kake · 07-20-2012 05:18 PM

Where... are the buses?

you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3