The ONE thing you want to know...
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-16 20:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I am not sure what else you expect him to do when you take a perfectly good word and insist that it's actually meaningless and impossible to use for its intended purpose...
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Originally Posted by Mazey
As far as I can tell, you're just responding with "NUH UH!"
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Well, why else would he be able to break his time-tether, and why would he be able to consistently trump and fool his enemies unless he knew the full extent of their potential by being the one who provides it!? He's just been doing the whole "villainous mastermind" schtick to spur more heroes to live up to their potentials, thus increasing his power by increasing their legends!! It's a foolproof theory!
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You'd probably think Khelds, given the Kheld back story guide, and all the little questions (and inconsistencies - such as how the battalion could actually have captured/wiped out an extragalactic, fairly easily multigalactic species such as the Kheldians - moreso when we have portal technology in game - and what makes Twilight Son think he's actually the last.)
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I'll try and cut out all the Incarnate crap for you.
Twilight's Son works for Mender Silos. Mender Silos has been revealed to be a future version of Lord Nemesis.
There doesn't need to be a Well involved to explain this. It's Nemesis. He fired the shot that started the Rikti Wars, and half the game's content tells us how THAT played out. So he's done this sort of thing before. If throwing an entire race of living beings into a furnace will suit whatever agenda he's cooked up, Lord Nemesis will find a way to throw those beings into that furnace and come out with clean hands and the world none the wiser.
That said, the only character in the CoH mythos that knows what REALLY happened to the Kheldians is going to be Mender Silos, until a future issue lets us beat the truth out of him.
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So, he's trying to emanitize the eschaton?
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
Well, why else would he be able to break his time-tether, and why would he be able to consistently trump and fool his enemies unless he knew the full extent of their potential by being the one who provides it!? He's just been doing the whole "villainous mastermind" schtick to spur more heroes to live up to their potentials, thus increasing his power by increasing their legends!! It's a foolproof theory!
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...Y-Uh...n-er...Yes?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
So, he's trying to emanitize the eschaton?
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
This has been one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on these boards, and I'm thrilled that there are other players out there that are still as interested and involved with the game's canon and lore as I am. I may not find any RP opportunities anymore, but it's great when you can build a character that fits with the game and have a good understanding of where they sit in it.
I think the questions I have about canon are the ones that no one wants to answer because it kind of points out how badly our game suffers from ADD.
Who Empowered Romulus? It wasn't just some random Nictus, so who was it? Doesn't Imperious allude to continuing conflict on that front?
Why were the khelds (probably the most significant experience of the human race and planet earth, contact with entities from ANOTHER GALAXY) just sidelined and aside from TS, who is a convoluted mess and disaster, never mentioned again?
These are just personal gripes I suppose, as I would much, much MUCH rather have seen the kheldian conflict be the focus of some of the endgame's raidgrind hamster wheel than the Praetoria thing which it doesn't seem like anyone wanted, was interested in, or cared about even when it began. I would love to have seen the focus on khelds bring about a complete teardown and rebuild of the kheldian EAT to correct the nightmarish horror they are and bring them in line with functional and completed ATs.
That, and the Nemesis thing. Exactly what is Nemesis now, anyway?
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
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Well, since there's no numbers here, I feel comfortable suggesting that this is ..not entirely precise. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Targeting lore at the people who don't care about the lore is, well, honestly dumb. That's like targeting your background music at the deaf.
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When I first started playing this game, I read what the contacts had to say. When I went vigilante and then Villain (solely for badges), I read what the contacts would have to say.
I am not a pure min/maxer, but I'd like to think I'm close sometimes. I prefer speed tfs to kill alls, kill most, or kill through. If I can't solo with my characters, I'll never bring them on a team.
Now - if you want someone like me to pay more attention to lore - have the stories be something feasible in reality. I want a story that's for an adult, not a kid. No, I don't want mature themes with atrocious acts of violence, but I want the contact to send me to do something relevant and I think there should be some character development before I'm going to care about what the contact is going to send me to do.
I think there should be theme music, too. Something appropriate to the story as I read it.
The newer arcs in Atlas could have done a pretty decent job of this - the problems in Galaxy City, how they affected ..Havisham, I think his name is, and his family. That's something real. It's beyond me why we're not sent into Galaxy City to help those folks get out. All the magic and technology, and not one of the Phalanx can send a lowbie hero to Galaxy City (the destroyed one) to rescue someone's family?
The hero tip mission where we rescue Debutante's from the Carnies. That could easily have been made into a small arc - saving some foolish girl from getting in over her head.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there are no "real" stories in the game, it's just that the dialogue that the characters say (in mission) and the way things are worded by the contact (for brevity's sake, I'm sure) they just don't carry any emotion for me.
Flux, with his arc, the way we have to clobber a few outcasts - and the reason why - it makes sense. Helps him keep his cover. But other contacts seem to just give assignments for no real reason.
For me, if you want me to care about the lore -
1. It should make sense.
2. There should be some theme music fitting with the mission being assigned.
3. There should be some emotion being conveyed. Fear is fine - but if the hellion is unable to actually damage the civilian, why are they scared?
4. The contact should never make me zone hunt, nor send me out of zone. (oops, that probably doesn't apply)
5. Some humor wouldn't hurt either.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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By Havisham, do you mean Matthew Habashy? You should probably replay the arc, including its subsequent conclusion in the Thiery arc.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
The newer arcs in Atlas could have done a pretty decent job of this - the problems in Galaxy City, how they affected ..Havisham, I think his name is, and his family. That's something real. It's beyond me why we're not sent into Galaxy City to help those folks get out. All the magic and technology, and not one of the Phalanx can send a lowbie hero to Galaxy City (the destroyed one) to rescue someone's family?
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[Spoiler] Matthew's wife, Dana "Scully" Habashi, believed to have died in Galaxy City, was instead being held hostage by Arachnos. So were alot of missing victims of the meteor crash. We did rescue all these people from Galaxy City, even if they weren't there anymore. [/Spoiler]
It would be cool if there was a mission to go around the rubble and search for victims, but it's heavily implied that it was happening during the tutorial.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
The hero tip mission where we rescue Debutante's from the Carnies. That could easily have been made into a small arc - saving some foolish girl from getting in over her head.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
1. It should make sense.
2. There should be some theme music fitting with the mission being assigned. 3. There should be some emotion being conveyed. Fear is fine - but if the hellion is unable to actually damage the civilian, why are they scared? 4. The contact should never make me zone hunt, nor send me out of zone. (oops, that probably doesn't apply) 5. Some humor wouldn't hurt either. |
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I try to start interesting threads because I am a total lore junkie, and I'm always curious what sort of stuff the community likes.|
Originally Posted by King_Moloch
This has been one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on these boards, and I'm thrilled that there are other players out there that are still as interested and involved with the game's canon and lore as I am. I may not find any RP opportunities anymore, but it's great when you can build a character that fits with the game and have a good understanding of where they sit in it.
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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Well, I didn't say that, so...
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
I am not sure what else you expect him to do when you take a perfectly good word and insist that it's actually meaningless and impossible to use for its intended purpose...
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Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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I have a crazy theory about that, but... I'm not entirely sure that it IS crazy.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
Who created superadyne? When the Regulators got in there, they swore everyone to secrecy about what they saw.
Some of that must have to do with the (rather silly) consequences of taking lots of the drug. (spoilers). But that still leaves a mystery about where it came from. |
First, "regulating" something doesn't mean to stop it - it means that an upper limit is applied. A regulator in your vehicle limits the maximum speed, a regulator on a pipeline limits the maximum flow, and a Regulator sets a limit on the amount Superadine that gets onto the streets.
In most cases, the Primal and Praetorian versions of a person have nearly parallel motives and methods. Marauder maintains several Fixadine labs, while working to shut down the ones he doesn't personally control. Marcus Cole knows all about Marauder's 'dyne labs, and gives him the resources to keep them secret, including a cover provided by taking down "unauthorized" 'dyne labs.
I've suspected for a while now that Brawler and the Regulators are in control of some part of the 'dyne trade in Paragon City. Whether it's for a reason similar to Marauder's - "I have to keep some going, because if I shut it down, all my boys will die from withdrawl" - or if he has some other reason, I don't know.
@Roderick
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Just to point out, we do have Mirror Spirit, who is the incarnation of the Yata no Kagami, while not strictly a deity the mirror is an important part of the Amaterasu legend. It would also be very difficult to cover Norse mythology since Marvel has that whole thing pretty well claimed. Sadly, most of the other cultures you mentioned besides Egyptian are so unknown to the average American that making references to them would be kinda pointless, because nobody would get it. Of course, as a guy who frequently plays a Djinn character, I'd love to see more Arabic stuff.|
Originally Posted by Kirsten
WTF are all the other mythological deities doing!?
We have some Ancient Groman gods, and some oblique reference to Carthaginian (Mot) and Celtic (Croatoa), and a supposed Egyptian-Themed AT that may or may not be in the pipes, but what about Norse, African, Chinese, Japanese, Native American, Meso-American/Olmec, Teutonic stuff? Do they even exist lore-wise? |
Now, back on the topic at hand, what would I like to know more about? Well that's simple: The Coralax. I've been wanting to see more about the Coralax for ages, like a strictly Coralax-based TF/SF and/or (Oh God Please) an underwater zone. There is just a massive storyline behind the Coralax that has been relatively untapped. We've done the Leviathan to death, there's still so much more to cover. Hell, there's an entire aquatic race besides the Coralax that don't even exist in game yet. Coralax. Underwater zone. Get on it.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
The talk of coralax reminded me another mess I would like to see sorted out.
The Leviathan in Sharkhead - multiple arcs about it, with different levels of information and no links or level ranges to keep it logical. Currently villains are more likely to steal its power (Ross) before seeking out vague clues that it exists (Kirkland).
Almost as if someone wrote a great arc and then tossed it in with no thought on how it would impact the existing content...
At least this is somewhat easy to fix: by adding some contact dependencies/introductions* and changing the level ranges.
And on the subject of fixes, here is how I would "fix" the "same well for all dimensions" problem:
Each species/world** has its own Well.
But the Wells of Praetorian and Primal earths have merged into one.
This happened because:
-they were similar to start with
-lots of contact between these two worlds, for some time now
-the Praetorian one was greatly weakened by the destruction and deaths caused by Hamidon wars
-(maybe) the Praetorian Well was also greatly weakened by the ascension of Praetorian Hamidon.
The reason Prometheus lied about this: to make us think that The Coming Storm could not be escaped by hopping dimensions so we would stay and fight.
*the number of people that suddenly need to contact you at the magical level of 20 is starting to look silly, to me
**tying Wells to worlds would avoid the whole "warwolves, robots (Siege, Nightstar), nictus - all connected to the human Well" issue
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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Think I need to point out, way back when, the Coralax were mentioned as an EAT. That... fairly obviously didn't happen. >.> And by the other race, I assume you mean the Virtea?|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Now, back on the topic at hand, what would I like to know more about? Well that's simple: The Coralax. I've been wanting to see more about the Coralax for ages, like a strictly Coralax-based TF/SF and/or (Oh God Please) an underwater zone. There is just a massive storyline behind the Coralax that has been relatively untapped. We've done the Leviathan to death, there's still so much more to cover. Hell, there's an entire aquatic race besides the Coralax that don't even exist in game yet. Coralax. Underwater zone. Get on it.
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(Yes, interested in EATs for a while now...)
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So, basically, they're the Rampart division?
| I've suspected for a while now that Brawler and the Regulators are in control of some part of the 'dyne trade in Paragon City. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I will disagree with this in principle because so much of the game is already based on world mythology that nobody would normally know anything about, from Adamastor to Norumbega (Oranbega) to Jack-in-Irons (though the Irish/European stuff is admittedly more widely familiar than the non-European stuff.)|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Sadly, most of the other cultures you mentioned besides Egyptian are so unknown to the average American that making references to them would be kinda pointless, because nobody would get it.
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I personally believe that the strong mythical foundation of the game is one of the reasons for its initial and continued success. It set the world apart from being a simple generic super hero setting and the mythological trappings gave at least the appearance of a kind of depth to the factions that they otherwise might not have had.
The game would only benefit from having more content related to classic mythology of any sort. Heck, getting back to the Well, it was really the initial description of it as it related to Pandora's Box and to the idea that the Greek Heroes of Old were the original "super heroes" that made the Well interesting. The current version of the Well - Not so interesting, IMO.
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Oh?|
Originally Posted by Mazey
Well, I didn't say that, so...
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Yes, exactly. Calling a story inconsistent is either inaccurate, meaningless or pointless. My point is exactly that it's a bad way to criticise a story and, if you want to do so, there are far better options.
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Yes.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Oh?
Is there a different way to interpret the above statement? |
You claim I said that I "insist that it's actually meaningless and impossible to use for its intended purpose..."
When what I said was "Calling a story inconsistent is either inaccurate, meaningless or pointless. My point is exactly that it's a bad way to criticise a story and, if you want to do so, there are far better options."
Which are completely different things.
If you're still having problems, note how in what I said "meaninglessness" was only one option out of three, while in what you claimed I said it was the only option, and note how I never once said that it was impossible to use it for its intended purpose.
I never said you couldn't call a story inconsistent, just that any time you might, there is a better way to describe your problem with the story instead.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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This is because the staff has taken the following approach:|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yeah, I'd trade the ability to have any one question answered for the power to completely and utterly excise the entire Well storyline from the game. It's unbelievably bad, for one thing; try explaining it to someone who doesn't play the game and watch the look on their face. And it casts the players as 1976-era D&D munchkins.
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1. EVERYTHING has to get a handwavium explanation. Even the existence of proliferated sets suddenly getting a story about some mad scientist experimenting with the potential of superpowers, because the reason you could not make an electric capable Tanker was because of universal law etc.
2. The lore is a big landscape of retcon and handwavium partly because of the policy and partly due to staff turnover or simple terrible ideas.
3. The staff has some amount of pride in how 'serious' the game is so all of it gets a reverent awe in subsequent stories doubling down.
The whole thing is a lot like, appropriately, comic books.
Really, comic books have had a similar approach for decades as the continuity and fan base are ever more insular and emphasize 'explanation.' Writers increasingly see a potential challenge in 'making it serious' or 'tying up the continuity'. Thus an endgame had to 'reference' a previous idea, incarnates, that was not a good idea in the first place, while also retconning the origin as a more palatable but increasingly convoluted system while inserting its lore through as large a portion of the 'universe' as possible.
However this is not an aspect of comic books that should be emulated.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
OK, next question: How does the fortune teller and Spelunker badge tie in with Atlas?
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Personally, I'd like to know more about the Warriors. When I say this, however, I mean less that I want to know their backstory and more that I want to see more of their backstory in the actual game. From the beginning, the Warriors have been the game's butt monkeys, not really having stories of their own and getting beat up by the Freakshow screaming "You're hurting me!" The one time they do get a story - Mercedes Sheldon's Crown of Glory - and it pretty much ruins them as a faction, avoiding giving them any real depth in favour of recreating the Iliad.
Who are these guys? Why do they use melee weapons and how can this make them successful against gangs that use guns? They trade magic artefacts, but do they use them? How? They style themselves after ancient Greek tradition and mythos, but why? And how seriously do they take it? On the one hand we have Alexander "The Great" Pavlidis whose name suggest he's actually Greek, but only uses the moniker as his nickname, yet on the other hand we have Menelaus and Achilles leading a war against Hector in a recreation of events worthy of the Summer Court Fae. What are these guys about and where can we find depth about them?
Really, almost all of the original Launch enemy groups can stand to be explored a little more and given a little more depth. And I'd love to see that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As much as I love the Warriors, I'm afraid that the answer for them is that they are a joke with a background tacked on. As a European, Sam, you might not be familiar with the 1979 film _The Warriors_. (That IMDB plot synopsis is a little off - there is nothing in the film to suggest that it takes place in a dystopian future. The power of an otherwise semi-cheesy flick is that it takes place in the present day.)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What are these guys about and where can we find depth about them?
Really, almost all of the original Launch enemy groups can stand to be explored a little more and given a little more depth. And I'd love to see that. |
The Warriors in the game are very clearly modeled after the titular gang of the film. The rest of it is tacked on background to justify having them there and calling themselves "The Warriors".
Someone really liked that film - The gang chatter of the game is full of quotes from the film. "I like doing stuff like that", for instance, which makes perfect sense if you've seen the film, as does "Come out and plaaay!" ( I haven't seen that one in a long time.)
It's not a big stretch to imagine that the gang depictions in the film went a long ways towards contributing to the visual conceptions of gangs like the Skulls and the Hellions. I've often wished that there was a Baseball Furies style of gang in the game, heh.
In short, I am fully behind the fulfillment of your wish but would be unsurprised to learn that they don't really have much of a back-story beyond a "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" to fans of the film.
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They don't have to have a backstory. One can be made on the fly if a writer cared enough about actually giving the gang depth and meaning. Hell, I could do it if I had any control over the actual canon.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
In short, I am fully behind the fulfillment of your wish but would be unsurprised to learn that they don't really have much of a back-story beyond a "nudge-nudge, wink-wink" to fans of the film.
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I remember a recent discussion I had with Nuclear Toast where I broke concepts down into the categories of "character" and "construct." A character would behave like a real person would, given the circumstances, even if this makes for a less complicated plot. A construct would be the facsimile of a real person, but whose actions and reactions would be based on an explanation of how the person should behave regardless of whether it makes sense or whether an actual person who lived to adulthood would live this way. The trouble with the Warriors is that aside from Alexander Pavlidis (and even then JUUUST barely), the Warriors act like constructs. They are defined as people who recreate Greek myths and thus their reactions are based around the actions of the mythical people they take their names from. For instance, when going to recover the Geometric Solids, the person who holds them turns out to have the nickname Archimedes. Convenient coincidence?
Honestly, giving the Warriors some depth could be as simple as giving all of the named ones real names, with the Greek name in quotes, exactly like Alexander "The Great" Pavlidis. It suggests that these are real people with real lives and real backstories who simply took on the identities of ancient Greek heroes, but whose "real person" personalities still exist behind the name. That's pretty much the definition of depth - a person who is more than he first appears. Giving these guys more to their faction and more to their individual stories than JUST a Greek myth name would be a good first step.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Who is the statue in Blyde Square? Is it M1, like the one that was in Galaxy City, or does it just share a model?
,'&#
{}... .-
01234
"*_
?;!hgfauirebcew
Imperfectly round, imperfectly round
The wheels on the bus just weren't round,
they're poll-y-gons
The wheels made the bus go thudTHUD, thudTHUD, thudTHUD,
thudTHUD, thudTHUD, thudTHUD, thudTHUD, thudTHUD, thudTHUD,
The wheels made the bus go thudTHUD, thudTHUD, thudTHUD,
All through the town
The bus passengers got bad whiplash,
Compacted spines, broken bones
Yes, I know the words don't go that way
but it makes, the, point...
The bus passengers got good lawyers,
good lawyers, good lawyers,
They sued the pants off the bus companies
who alll, shut, down...
(And no, this pinnacleite hasn't started drinking tonight. Why do you ask?)