Hi Everyone.
I just thought of a major change, which will surely never happen...
But before it get lost, i just put it in here 
Some details for the understanding:
-We all know that the human form nearly got all powers of the other forms, they just use different values.
-With some of the new powersets like titan weapons or dual pistols, the devs used a method where the game has 2 powers at the same power place... the enhancements are the same for both versions, but depending on a switch the powers have different values.
==> So it could be possible to use the same mechanic in Kheldians and remove the separate slotting for the Nova/Dwarfs form powers and just let them act differently if a form is active.
Additionally (as i understand it) this could/should cause ALL human powers be useable in forms (just with different values)
Result:
+ fare easier slotting ("more" slots)
+ all powers can be used in forms (even shields and heals and damage auras and mire. But compared to the other epic ATs, this is rarely overpowered.)
- No more double-use of powers (=no more double-mire)
- the change is to big. This changes the mechanic of the AT so much, there will be a lot of power equalizings and maybe nerfs needed
Just my 3 cents ^^
P.S. i don´t know if this was suggested before.
Make them like Horus from the comic. Complete with green aura.
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While that's an impressive list of changes, and interesting throw at adding a mechanic unique to PB's which has definitely been the "in" thing lately, but I think I have to agree with this:|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
-Snip-
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Arbiter Hawk to his credit made it clear no changes that fundamentally change the AT or overly piss off people that have played the AT under a style that fits what it is for years. The changes made in October were EXCELLENT. He said there was more coming down the pike, but they will need to fit the AT. That is all I have said in the past and now, changes that fit the current AT, not changes that make it some other current AT.
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The reason I didn't reiterate something like "Toggle Suppression" is simply because that is a change I know will come when they've figured out how to implement it. That's why I've stuck to the straightforward basis of "Warshades = AoE & Soft Control, PB's [should] = ST & Soft Support."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
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You don't realize all the implications of a change like this.|
Originally Posted by Lichtfunke
==> So it could be possible to use the same mechanic in Kheldians and remove the separate slotting for the Nova/Dwarfs form powers and just let them act differently if a form is active.
Additionally (as i understand it) this could/should cause ALL human powers be useable in forms (just with different values) |
First, and most obviously, not all form powers match up to Nova/Dwarf powers. Sure, for a PB, it's mostly straightforward, but what about a Warshade? Warshades have Gravitic Emanation and Dark Nova Emanation, but one is a stun and the other an attack. With your scheme, how could I possibly slot it for both like I do now?
Likewise with Black Dwarf. Gravity Well might match up to Dark Dwarf Smite, but where does Strike come from?
Second big problem is that your change would actually weaken Warshades and Peacebringers. Suddenly, PBs lose their third heal power, and can't use Dwarf Flare right before Solar Flare. Warshades lose Double Mire. Peacebringers won't be able to string ranged AoEs of human and Nova continuously.
Third is the fact that a lot of us like having extra powers. If I had to choose to take Incandescant Strike and Solar Flare because I wanted to be able to have an attack chain in Dwarf, it limits my build options. As it stands, I can replace IS and even SF with something I will use, but still have all my Dwarf Attacks. My Warshade doesn't take Dark Detonation, would that mean he couldn't use Dark Nova Detonation?
Where to now?
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Most of your post is cool, but I could not care less about anyone who currently plays the toon trying to keep it that way. That's the same mentality that leads to Elec Blast keeping Endurance Drain as a primary mechanic on a Blaster. Sometimes you gotta break stuff to fix things, and the players will have to adjust. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Seeing things like changing reform essence to a PBAOE heal gets my blood boiling as it almost seems like people just say things they think will be good not considering the people that have played the AT for years and would never consider that kind of change seriously because it contrast so vastly with how the power is currently used. That kind of thing belongs with suggestions for a "brand new AT" not my PB.
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See: virtually every patch cycle in World of Warcraft.
Don't fear change.
My suggestion for fixing Peacebringers isn't to change any of the powers, but to go even further Jack of All Trades with their inherents.
Add the following inherent powers to Peacebringers. Keep their Cosmic Balance inherent. Additionally, each form gets two inherents specific for their form.
Human form: Defender Vigilance and add a new Radiance Inhererent (every attack has built-in extra energy damage proc).
Nova Form: Blaster Defiance and Corrupter Scourge
Dwarf Form: Tanker Gauntlet (w/ Bruising) and Scrapper Critical Hit
This change augments thematic classification of Peacebringers as Jack of All Trades, while providing specific help for each of the forms. Human form gets better endurance managment as well as conditional extra damage. Nova form gets increased ranged effectiveness and a bit of mez help (able to fire first two ST blasts while mezzed). Dwarf form gets better taunting and potential critical damage.
Additionally, I suggest for both Peacebringers and Warshades to automatically grant an initial 6 empty slots for all nova and dwarf powers on selection of nova/dwarf power.
This change helps frees up bi- and tri-form players from having to scrimp on slots and allows a bit of stat strengthening by increased io set bonus possibilities.
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None of this post is cool.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Most of your post is cool, but I could not care less about anyone who currently plays the toon trying to keep it that way. That's the same mentality that leads to Elec Blast keeping Endurance Drain as a primary mechanic on a Blaster. Sometimes you gotta break stuff to fix things, and the players will have to adjust.
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I have seen end drain as an effective control mechanic, it just takes a lot of work. The proper way to fix that is not to replace the mechanic, just design it to work better.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I wouldn't put that on your job application for game designer.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Most of your post is cool, but I could not care less about anyone who currently plays the toon trying to keep it that way.
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I would. I'd be employed by Blizzard. Word is they're pretty good at their jobs.
EDIT: If you folks are that terrified of change, we're done here. There's nothing to discuss if your entrenched position is, "Change that makes me play my toon differently is bad".
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For the record, I believe in design balance not numerical balance. To me, numbers are the language of game design. Numerical balance for the sake of numerical balance is like always speaking in Haiku.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
EDIT: I'm a guy that believes heavily in balance, more so than I fear homogenization. Very few other people agree with that, so I know my ideas are typically in the negative to begin with.
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It is *impossible* to numerically balance single target damage and AoE damage. They are not structurally congruent: there will always be an infinite number of situations where one or the other is vastly superior. The only numerical solution is to give everyone the same amount of each. Ditto regeneration and mitigation, ditto defense and resistance, ditto resistance debuffs and damage buffs.
The only way to balance these things numerically is to make sure everyone has the same amount of all of them. All other forms of presumptive numerical balancing are trivially assailable.
In another thread the subject of incomparables was mentioned. I believe the thing that a game like ours must balance is gameplay opportunity. And the presumption is that all reasonable gameplay opportunities have the same value: they are in effect incomparables. Within that context, the best possible quantitative expression of that design should be made. In that sense, "balance" isn't about equality at all in a quantitative sense, its about everything hitting their targets. The equality assertion occurs at the qualitative level.
Its often come up where people question what exactly I mean when I say I believe in quantative balancing, but only within the scope of design balance, and I do not believe in the philosophy that "game balance" requires homogenization. This is what I mean. Homogenization doesn't create game balance in my judgment, it eliminates gameplay opportunities by reducing the number of different possibilities. It doesn't balance: it destroys. It doesn't have to balance, when there's only one thing left.
The very first homogeneity-breaking design decision made in this version of City of Heroes was the invention of the archetype: a decision that was derided for a long time after launch. Having seen what happens when they don't exist, its obvious that the benefits of archetypes has historically been vastly underestimated.
Everyone has their own notion of game design and what they believe "balance" means. However, its critically important to note that there is no such thing as a singular quantitative objective: there isn't a "right answer" that calculations eventually deliver. My calculations will take me to places other people's calculations will not, and its not because of arithmetical errors. Its because of a fundamental difference of opinion in where the game should go. Numbers are silent on that question.
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You really think that, don't you? The second sentence, not the third.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
I would. I'd be employed by Blizzard. Word is they're pretty good at their jobs.
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Nice Strawman fallacy here.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
EDIT: If you folks are that terrified of change, we're done here. There's nothing to discuss if your entrenched position is, "Change that makes me play my toon differently is bad".
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We're not 'terrified of change,' but thank you for trying to misrepresent my argument.
I'm opposed to the wrong change.
But there's nothing to discuss if your entrenched position is defended by fallible logic.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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/this. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Nice Strawman fallacy here.
We're not 'terrified of change,' but thank you for trying to misrepresent my argument. I'm opposed to the wrong change. But there's nothing to discuss if your entrenched position is defended by fallible logic. |
Wonder if he sees the irony in "If you feel this way, we can't talk." (Even outside the misrepresentation.)
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I have been playing Khelds for six years. They were the second AT I rolled and they "have" changed quite nicely over the years. As has been stated by me and others we just went through "another" round of Kheld changes in October of last year. To our grace we have Arbiter Hawk in charge of the changes and he appears to have the feeling that the changes can and should be made within the function of the current AT and the support for the last changes by Kheld drivers supports this notion.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Most of your post is cool, but I could not care less about anyone who currently plays the toon trying to keep it that way. That's the same mentality that leads to Elec Blast keeping Endurance Drain as a primary mechanic on a Blaster. Sometimes you gotta break stuff to fix things, and the players will have to adjust.
See: virtually every patch cycle in World of Warcraft. Don't fear change. |
We just want to see the "right" changes and the mere suggestion of changing reform essence to a PBAOE heal seems to show a "significant" disconnect with the devs stated goal of maintaining the integrity of the AT.
As I said there "were" already many "great" suggestions made in the "other" threads where the devs themselves came in to set the record straight on a few things. So the notion we are against change is absurd, we just want them to be the type that maintain the integrity of the AT we have played for years and frankly have already made MUCH better suggestions already under review by the devs THAT FIT INTO THE CURRENT AT.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
By the way:
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Bzzzzzt. |
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Welp, this got out of control.
Memphis_Bill, this thread is *explicitly* about making Kheldians better from a numbers perspective. Your opinion on their storyline as compared to the VEAT storyline is interesting from a weight of effort perspective, but has nothing to do with numbers and performance. In this thread, you have contributed exactly zero content to the discussion at hand. I'm going to be asking for some clean-up in this thread, and then I'll get to posting my own ideas to hopefully get the thread back onto something resembling a track. |
Your own first post:
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| Any response is valid |
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| story |
Do try to keep up in your *own* thread.
I do also like how you tell others that don't agree with you on what, if anything, needs changing that their opinions are invalid. Nice bit of hypocrisy on your part.
If you want nothing but "Cheerlead for me and my ideas," write a blog.
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There's a significant difference between restructuring an entire AT to a new model, versus a mechanical change that might add a slight buff to the overall performance of it without changing the design. Tagging a Debuff into the PB's attack schematics and altering their Heals into PBAoE's is developing a malformed Defender, and that's not the idea. Kheldian's are basically from Launch, and changing their fundamental aspects this late in the game not only looks bad on the developers, but on the foundations of the game. As the game progresses in its lifespan, and new content is introduced, other areas of the game must be "modified" to grow with the game as well, otherwise you end up with "dead spots", like in a plant that doesn't receive sunlight slowly dies. Eventually you have to trim the excess to allow new growth.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
I would. I'd be employed by Blizzard. Word is they're pretty good at their jobs.
EDIT: If you folks are that terrified of change, we're done here. There's nothing to discuss if your entrenched position is, "Change that makes me play my toon differently is bad". |
No one's asking for a rebuild of the Kheldian concept, just improvement and better integration with the growth of the game. Khelds used to "work" before Inventions, and I9 gave the chance to grow areas of PB's, but they still weren't really "there." Incarnates came and create a new design balance, and PB's still really aren't "there." They're passable, capable of being played competently, but small things would help them function better.
Like Toggle Suppression, in time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Brethren,
There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who divide people into two categories and those who do not.
I, of course, would be part of the first group; I am sure that a number of you would be as well.
Now, when it comes to these proposals of change for our noble race there are also two groups of people.
There are those who get things right and there are those who do not.
Now, this second group can be further divided. For you see, the people who get things wrong generally get things wrong for opposite reasons. And while I could provide many examples to illustrate this point, to save both time and sanity (yes, both yours and mine) I will simply remark upon what I have observed,
"Evidently, it is the goal of the liberals of this community to create larger and more numerous mistakes; while, it is the goal of the conservatives to see that the genuine mistakes never get corrected."
I find the goals of both groups wholly unacceptable.
Believe me when I tell you,
"I will change what should be changed! I will maintain what should be maintained! I will neither stray too far to the left nor too far to the right for I have a balanced, singular and unifying vision for Kheldkind!"
I am confident that, time and time again, I have offered the best solution. The question is simply whether or not you are willing to receive it.
E Pluribus Unum,
AIB
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That would be that banana split someone tried mailing to me?
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Originally Posted by AIB
B
I am confident that, time and time again, I have offered the best solution. The question is simply whether or not you are willing to receive it. |
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While you're doing that I will bribe the devs with cookies.
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Originally Posted by AIB
"I will change what should be changed! I will maintain what should be maintained! I will neither stray too far to the left nor too far to the right for I have a balanced, singular and unifying vision for Kheldkind!"
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Welcome to City of diehard Casuals. You'll never find another community with such blatantly paradoxical values in your life. Enjoy it.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
If you folks are that terrified of change, we're done here.
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@Dechs Kaison:
Summed up: You are right in you thoughts about my idea.
A more detailed reply:
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I didn´t checked it in detail before entering the thought *blush*.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
First, and most obviously, not all form powers match up to Nova/Dwarf powers.
... Warshades have Gravitic Emanation and Dark Nova Emanation, but one is a stun and the other an attack. With your scheme, how could I possibly slot it for both like I do now? ... |
My thought of the change was: if there are powers that does NOT have a twin, then the AT just keeps both.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Second big problem is that your change would actually weaken Warshades and Peacebringers. Suddenly, PBs lose their third heal power, and can't use Dwarf Flare right before Solar Flare. Warshades lose Double Mire. Peacebringers won't be able to string ranged AoEs of human and Nova continuously.
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Still this would open up some interesting options... to use shields in nova... to use melee attacks in nova... to use dark detonation in dwarf ... and so on)
(As said, this changes to much, so this idea will never be used by the devs
... Its just an idea how I would create Kheldians within the actual game)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
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My Warshade doesn't take Dark Detonation, would that mean he couldn't use Dark Nova Detonation? |
So far, I haven't seen anything in this thread take note of this simple, singular fact which came to light last week ... but I'm going to take it and run with it and rub people's noses into it so it can't be continually overlooked.
Issue 24 changes to the Fighting Pool
The Powers Team has done something entirely new with the changes made to the "new" Fighting Pool ... synergistic effects from TAKING other powers! If you take Boxing *AND* Kick ... you get extra effects on both powers (and not the same effects to either power!). Heck, they even made Fighting Pool powers have synergistic effects ON BRAWL ...!
Take that entirely *NEW* in-game "tech" and apply it to the mechanics that govern Peacebringers and Warshades.
Do you see what I see?
(I should hope that you do ...)
There is the opportunity here to synergize the effects of Human Form powers with Nova and Dwarf powers ... to an extent thoroughly not possible within as "limited a space" as the Fighting Pool will offer in Issue 24.
Why take the Human Resistance Shields? Because they buff the Resistances gained by Dwarf Form.
Why take Dwarf Form? Because it offers an additional Resistance to Psionics to Light Form.
Why take Light Form when you have Dwarf Form? Because it offers an additional Resistance to Endurance Drain in Dwarf Form.
Why take Human Form Blast powers when the Nova Form equivalents are so much more powerful? Because when you take both, you get a synergy bonus on both counterparts which is not the same in both Forms (meaning each Form serves a different purpose aside from just Damage throughput).
Why take Human Form Reform Essence when White Dwarf Sublimation is so much better? Because if you do, you get a synergy bonus on both which is not the same in both Forms making them not exact copies of each other with nerfed stats for Human Form.
Why take Human Form Essence Drain when Black Dwarf Drain is so superior? Because if you do, you get a synergy bonus on both.
... and so on ... and so on ... and so on and so forth.
And these are just examples of the kinds of synergistic effects that could be made possible by the new Tech found in the Issue 24 Fighting Pool which makes these kinds of synergies happen at all.
Now ... is *ANYONE* here going to argue that implementing a FULL SET of cross-linking synergies between Human, Nova and Dwarf forms is something that should be "simple and easy to implement ... and even simpler and easier to QA/playtest" given the level of complexities that can be involved here?
One of the biggest legacy "problems" for Kheldians has been that although they are Form Shifters, there has been no practical "cross-linking" of their powers through their Forms ... aside from persistent buffs like Light Form (with the recent changes to make it more like)/Eclipse, Essence Boost, Inner Light and Sunless Mire/Black Dwarf Mire. When you switched forms, all of your "investments" in powers in other forms became inaccessible and "useless dead weight" to you. *NOW* with the New Tech in Issue 24, as exemplified in the New Fighting Pool ... that is no longer a limitation.
I yield the balance of my time to the Right Honorable Dechs Kaison so that he may pontificate at length about what this kind of change would do to MFing Warshades and MFing Peacebringers. I also grant permission to the Right Honorable AIB to begin campaigning immediately on this issue of opportunity (which I presume no less a person than Arbiter Hawk is already light years ahead of us on).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Going to modify what you're saying here a bit (and it's an interesting idea overall.) This is really a bigger "legacy problem" for *Peacebringers.* Something I've mentioned in the past (and do believe I mention in 'raising a peacebringer.') The Warshade (at least Human and Dwarf) can build on each other. Don't take dwarf, you actually do lose out on another Mire, for instance. The Warshade is a shifter, while the PB - less so now with the LF, IL, etc. changes admittedly - is more "three characters in one." The forms don't buff each other at all.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
One of the biggest legacy "problems" for Kheldians has been that although they are Form Shifters, there has been no practical "cross-linking" of their powers through their Forms ... aside from persistent buffs like Light Form (with the recent changes to make it more like)/Eclipse, Essence Boost, Inner Light and Sunless Mire/Black Dwarf Mire. When you switched forms, all of your "investments" in powers in other forms became inaccessible and "useless dead weight" to you. *NOW* with the New Tech in Issue 24, as exemplified in the New Fighting Pool ... that is no longer a limitation.
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I will argue, as well, that the "useless dead weight" doesn't hold as *much* weight with IOs, as the decision was made (or bug allowed to stand) that set bonuses in forms you're not in right now were allowed to carry over. For SO or simply frankenslotted builds, however, it does still hold true to a point. (And those IO builds will tend to be the reason I find it hard to agree with "well, just share the powers between forms" - it could potentially be a serious nerf to established builds, and not a minor respec issue.)
Looking back over the thread, I do find myself wondering how the archetype can be 'fixed', so to speak.
From a personal stand point, I usually find myself lacking anything to keep my endurance up, even with Light Form, to the point where I believe Kheldian Powers cost too much for what they do.
Is that correct? Not exactly. The key point of a Peacebringer, as well as a Warshade is Versatility. While they can freely focus on certain roles and aspects of a group, their ability to adjust on the fly is astounding. The inherent power they both get emphasises this by having them be better at what they do based on the team they have.
That, and I'm sure I'm doing something wrong somewhere, as I've seen plenty of pre-incarnate Peacebringers have no endurance issues at all.
So, would the answer be to add more powers to gain further versatility? I don't think so. Again, it's the ability to adjust on the fly that grants a Kheldian its value. Adding more power changes would make it more of an archetype that can be practically anything, but once it picks its path is stuck with it until the next respec, and it would run the risk of blurring the line between a Warshade and a Peacebringer to the point where visuals are the only things that differentiate the two.
Are they underpowered? In my opinion, they are a bit. It's difficult to describe, as many people have stated that both Peacebringers and Warshades are almost completely different in regards to how they're played, but there's something about them that, to me, doesn't feel as 'Epic' as their archetype suggests, but this is purely from a numbers standpoint. Visually, it's the most fun I've had on the game.
When I made the suggestion to turn Reform Essence into a PBAoE heal, it was mainly to retain the back-up support role that the AT had. I don't really see a reason to remove Glowing Touch, as it work fine, both thematically and mechanically.
Thinking back, if there are any 'fixes' to the Peacebringers I would want, it would be these:
A boosted Damage cap
A boosted Health cap
(Maybe, not exactly sure on this one) Incandescence provides a recovery boost that's only half enhanceable.
(Also a big maybe) an adjustment to Light Form that would reduce or remove the crash. If it's easy enough to get Perma Light Form, and considering the boost it provides, I don't see a reason as to why it should be a stacking effect. If it were changed to a refresh effect, then I'd be happy.
Other than that, I can't see anything else that needs to be adjusted, but this is coming from a guy who plays a Pure Human for RP Reasons. To that extent, I'm sure my one year of experience and heavily thematic build doesn't give me the credible view point most would want.
That's just my two cents.
Alls I'm after is meaningful discussion, DK, and the ability to stretch my brain muscles in quantifying and adding ideas.
Seeing things like changing reform essence to a PBAOE heal gets my blood boiling as it almost seems like people just say things they think will be good not considering the people that have played the AT for years and would never consider that kind of change seriously because it contrast so vastly with how the power is currently used. That kind of thing belongs with suggestions for a "brand new AT" not my PB.
Arbiter Hawk to his credit made it clear no changes that fundamentally change the AT or overly piss off people that have played the AT under a style that fits what it is for years. The changes made in October were EXCELLENT. He said there was more coming down the pike, but they will need to fit the AT. That is all I have said in the past and now, changes that fit the current AT, not changes that make it some other current AT.
Along those lines I am more than sure if someone mentions something not mentioned in the other threads where the devs made specific direct comments, they will see them and give them some thought consideration. I just think it is "not" a good idea to just throw crap against the wall and see what sticks, which is what I consider AT changing suggestions at this point since the devs have made their position clear.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.