How would you "fix" Kheldians?

I wouldn't have suggested it had I not tried it. In fact, it's the possibility for multi-form attack chains that got me to play my Peacebringer again. Granted, the timing can be a little tricky - trying to change form in the middle of an animation will still result in a bit of tray skulduggery, but a second tap on the key usually remedies the situation.

But then that sort of goes along with what passes for my playstyle, so it's likely that you (and many other Kheld drivers) may not be as enchanted with it as I am.

... hmm. Power pool attacks available in form... >.>

(OK, maybe not, nova would require more animation time. It'd help dwarf - oh, what the heck, let nova tail-smack stuff if it has fighting pool attacks.)

Honestly, it's the lack of attacks in White Dwarf specifically that bugs me. Dark's heal works as a (short) attack, and DDMire gives a buff - unless I've been leaning heavily on recharge, White Dwarf has a fair number of pauses. One additional attack would be nice. (And it's where the "drop to human" suggestion doesn't really work all the time - if I'm in a mez/stun heavy group, that can be a fairly bad idea.)

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Moreso than Warshades are now? I've thought about the slot cost problem myself for a year or six, and I think its an acceptable performance shift for the general case. I'm not unconcerned about the min/max case, but I'm far less concerned than I am about the general case.

And if you lrn2red, you'd notice what I quoted from EvilGeko and that I was qutie specifically talking about his concern with "player uproar" about that exact change.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

I like the idea of PP attacks in forms, toggle suppression and an additional attack and three slots only to be used in forms. Toggle suppression is the only one I am sure the devs are for and looking into. The other stuff ain't happening.

I see you missed the next thing I said.

The muling opportunities would be more than considerable, even cheaper stuff like KB IO's and Kinetic Combat sets. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't complain if it happened. I just feel a responsibility to point out things that I would exploit the hell out of on my personal builds before they happen, so I won't have any guilt about it once I've made my intentions public.

There's probably no change the devs can make for which that's not true. The I24 blaster sustain changes are going to be good for the average player, and the stuff of wet dreams for min/maxers. But that doesn't mean the average players shouldn't get the good stuff.

Also, although I mentioned increasing slot count, I didn't specify by how many. I did not mean to imply I think Kheldians should get another forty slots to fully slot each of the other two forms. That would be ridiculous. The calculations I did a few years ago suggested that number should be roughly six per alternate form.

I like the proc idea. I kinda think the resistance bonuses should just be replaced with defense bonuses. But that could get pretty OP. Regen would be alright too I guess, but it just doesn't seem like it'd be very much of a help. Maybe if it was going to remain as a resistance value, it could just be psi resistance for Peacebringers... Also though, the total resistance granted per team mate should give 50% of what it gives now to the Kheldian, and then 25% of it should be a buff FOR team mates. because of, you know, *insert lore reason here,* and also, because it would add a direct team contribution and incentive for teaming with Kheldians.

Austrian economics is a school of thought. Less is more is.. Well, a phrase. Just thought I'd put that out there.

Moving forward, the "wait and see" approach is what Arbiter Hawk used after the initial i21 (it was 21, right?) Peacebringer buffs. The changes helped, but Peacebringers are still underperforming. Can we maybe address the concerns from the last wait and see period before we instate a new one?

Ok maybe I am not seeing this is the same way you are but... how exactly are Kheldians really underperforming? My PB is quite literally the most powerful toon I have out of dozens of different archetypes and powersets.

About the only things I could see advocating for right now are quality of life changes.

Lets break this down -

1. Kheldians are insanely survivable right now, probably more so than just about any other AT out there regardless whether or not you figure IO's into this equation. There are specific powerset combinations in specific AT's that do probably meet or exceed Kheld's in this regard but taken as a whole you'd rather hard pressed to equal a Kheldian.

2. Flip side of the survivable coin is damage. We're not the top of the pack but we're not the bottom of the pack either. We can do respectable damage, DPA, DPS or however you want to quantify it. We probably aren't going to win any trophies for it but playing CoH isn't about making your specific toon the most powerful toon in the game. We're not the best, but we're not dragging anyone down where we are and that is perfectly OK.

3. Versatility - Ok, this is probably more of a perspective kind of a thing but there are a few points that come to mind as fairly universal. Kheldians were designed to be able to marginally fill different roles, specifically either as a damage dealer or as a damage soaker. Warshades even got a little control added in. You're probably going to point out that many other AT's have this kind of versatility as well and you'd be correct. I'm not saying this is something Kheldians have OVER other at's, because not everything we do needs to be. OK read that again. Not everything we do NEEDS to be better than all the other AT's. In fact most of what we do doesn't need to be better than anyone else. We just need to be competitive. In terms of versatility we certainly are.

When speaking in terms of game play and how any specific AT's handle game content those 3 things are pretty much it in my opinion. How well can you survive? How fast can you eliminate the "bad guys?" and How well can you adapt to a changing gameplay situation? As Kheldians stand my answer to all 3 of those answers are very positive ones.

Now quality of life things are in a different category. These are things that are specifically geared to make what you can already do easier or more enjoyable in some way. Or possibly to eliminate something that is keeping you from enjoying what you can already do. The whole Knockback/Knockdown issue is a good example. Toggle suppression is another good example.


I am all for quality of life changes when they wont impact game balance and make sense.

Now I am open to a discussion here but please keep it civil. I'm too old and cranky to put up with "internet games" and "flame wars." I've done my best to show you due respect so please do the same in return. Thank you.

I'm not sure if I'd use the word underperforming...but PB's do need a bit of work. The photon seekers, for example. They are just bad as pets. And we still need toggle supression. And pulsar still sucks.

Basically all the threads we've gone over in the last year or so should catch you up to date on why some people consider them underperformers.

The whole thing has kind of gone "dead horse" and all, but just to point to it: The recent buff to PB's basically brought them defensively in-line with Warshades. It wasn't a "Buff" it was Balance. The scales are still tipped towards Warshades for their AoE capacity. I, nor anyone else, is saying we want PB's to be AoE machines (they're not), but their Single-Target capacity (what they DO "specialize" in), is lackluster. You said you felt your PB was "top of the line," and that's fine from a perspective, but numerically PB's aren't any better than Defenders in solo straight damage ability.

We all agree that PB's "work," but the problem is that there are a few small idiosyncrasies that aren't quite right still. Photon Seekers are a bit out of whack, the ST could use a bit of a touch up. Human Form outperforms Nova and Dwarf in all respects for both WS and PB. These are just simple and small things that have been brought up over and over. It would be nice if they were "balanced."

None of the changes anyone's asked for are going to dramatically change the playing field. Just...clean it up a little.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

I can agree with you on Photon Seekers to a degree. That I think is still an issue of opinion though as I have seen a lot of people say they really like Photon Seekers as they are and use them like a mini nuke. I admit I also use them this way but the knock-back is a little annoying some of the time.

I don't think I agree on our ST damage though. I have 4 or 5 Defenders I think last I checked, some I have not played in a long time though, and I really cannot think of one that can take down a tough EB/AV/whatever as quickly as my PB can. Granted I have built my PB for Perma Lightform and has a great deal of recharge which lets me fly through my single target attacks but given how things are today I don't believe this is terribly uncommon. With a lot less recharge... maybe but I'm not convinced yet. The difference in the time it takes for these characters to take down some things using relatively the same levels of powers (no judgement powers or lore pets) is noticeable enough to make it stand out while I am playing. Numerically on paper it might seem that way in a certain vacuum situation but I don't see it in my day to day play. But again, I don't think we are supposed to be these really monstrous damage machines. If we get enough of a boost from Cosmic balance on top of Inner Light or some such you can get some really ridiculous numbers however.

Now look, I am not saying my opinion on this is THE only one, or the RIGHT one or however you might want to say that but it IS the opinion I have formed after playing my Kheldians for the last 4 or 5 years or so and I am trying to provide the information I have used to base that opinion on as best I can. And again I am all for quality of life changes, little things that make certain powers more likely to be used, or makes gameplay more enjoyable some way. I don't want the stereotypical tankmage even though I think we are fairly close to that as it is right now. If there's no challenge, there's no fun.

Feh, okay, so, I typed this all up once and miss clicked something and lost the entire thing, so here goes a second time (but shorter).

Photon Seekers: I'm referring not to my personal opinion, but all of the many people that have posted in this sub-forum about the "issue." Most cases the argument stems in the fact that people don't feel they function in a beneficial way. Whether it be their brief lives, or their inability to do a major amount of damage in a significant way (yes, I get they do "BIG ORANGE", but it's in one shot, and their displayed value is actually split three ways, and unless they gang up on one target, they're not even doing 50% of a minions' health). Personally, an improvement in any direction would be kind, but I'm indifferent to their current state as I only use them for amusement rather than expecting them to do something.

Single-Target Damage: When I talk about PB's being on Defender levels, I'm not talking about "on paper," I'm referencing actual in-action ability. I ran the base values for most of the defender blast sets and came up with ST capacity from 80-100, with some outliers like fire/sonic being able to reach baselines up to 110-120. I ran those numbers without additional buffs beyond the base 30% Solo for Vigilance (as this is exactly what I'm measuring, solo). Before the retort can be said: nobody can try and say "But if defenders are so low, why can't they have a buff?" Defender Primaries leverage buffs and debuffs in such a way that they can do absurd damage when they leverage their "other half." But, again, just talking secondary here.

Taking this back to the PB side, a low end PB (human form) on SO's (Or Basic IOs) will usually teeter out at 110 DPS. A mid-range, average PB (the most common achievement in today's IO world), reaches 125-135 DPS. A top end, fully pushed PB (not as often an occurrence due to the fact that the cost to achieve is often not worth the value for the involvement required) will start to burn out around 170-180 DPS. The paper-value of a high performance PB is actually around 190-200 DPS, but the impact of constantly maintaining Hasten, Light Form, and Inner Light dramatically bring this value down. In my testing, 170-175 was the limit. This is, of course, measuring sustained DPS and not Burst DPS.

For those unclear: Sustained DPS is your continuous average as you attack and includes in the ups and downs of things like Build Up (Inner Light). Burst DPS is what you do during the initial duration of immediate short-term buffs like (yup) Build Up. Inner Light has a burst portion (10/s) and a sustained value for the entire 30/s.

So, back to the maths and numbers! A PB at its peak (and please, don't argue Hybrid, that power is pretty static across all AT's: 30-40 DPS) starts maxing out around 175 DPS at their maximum performance. Lets put that into perspective! A Cold/Sonic Defender can solo a GM. That requires an effective output of 350+ DPS. Now, this is clearly leveraging Cold/* to the utmost of ridiculousness, but it is a Defender. They are solo. And they are owning. That is obviously an outlier case, but it is where some of the biggest arguments have spawned from. Baseline Corr and Defender blasts measure up with the PB Ranged attacks, and their Melee lines up with Non-Fury Brute values. I, nor any other player is directly asking to make this "City of Damage!", but it would be appreciated to have the ability to (at top performance) be more than a sparkler. Pretty and fun until it burns out and singes your hand.

I'm not using opinion to point these things out, but the hard data from the game. I know you said "you felt" your defenders did not perform at the same level as your PB, but that would be entirely on how you yourself have built them to perform. If your Defender feels "weak" (not "quoting", just using the word loosely), then you're more likely pigeon holing it. I have a Kinetic/Electric Defender made and leveled around I9. He's 50, and I don't ever play him. I feel, on my own, in my opinion, mine, he is weak. He's not really. Electric is passable on AoE for a Defender, and the i24 changes to Snipes will give him a viable ST chain finally, but the biggest bang he can ever do is a fulcrum shifted nuke (spawn wipe!) and that came off as luck-luster for me. Especially considering I just took a Fortunata and bashed a Pylon into the ground in 3:10. That's about 2.5 times more powerful than my Kin/Elec, so its perspective on being "weak."

Quick quote break here as I integrate an additional post:

They've been data-mining since the last alteration to PB's in order to monitor their survival performance.

Removing the KB defeats the intended design. They'll release one single unique IO to cut KB on one power, but there are often reasons something pushes AWAY (over powered as KD). KB doesn't make people scared, it pisses people off. Both those playing it, and those dealing with it. Now, not saying everyone becomes disassitisfied with knock back, many like to build around the idea and leverage it (more than viable) but...

No one is directly saying "I can farm quicker." My argument is that Warshades are definitively designed to maximize around AoE and crowd control. Peacebringers are focused on the alternative of Single Target and "soft control" (mild KB/KD in a handful of powers, and a Stun). They are two sides to the same coin, sharing and differentiating based on heads and tails. You can't say "Take that KB AoE, It'll increase your DPS." This is flat out false. You might get that one good hit in, but after that you've scattered the crowd and purposely reduced your ability to deal damage to the mob at large. That is why people don't like the KB. How can you possibly jump into a mob, AoE KB, and expect to keep doing it? PB's have KB AoE as a "Soft Control", it immediately disperses a mob and gives them a moment to breathe, turn, pick a target and take it out while the mob re-clusters.

PB's don't have Endurance Problems. Conserve Power is in the secondary, and Light Form (which is actually pretty easy to Perma, or have a larger up time) also provides an endurance boost. They're not quite at the same dramatic +END of a Warshade, but they are FAR from hurting.

So, to both of your statements, they're based on a perceived opinion, where many of the arguments here (and in general) can be shown in the data. The bigger question is... what's that word Arcanaville uses all the time? Holistic. If I'm using this right, the bigger question is how the developers view Kheldians holistically, and if they feel [our] point is valid.

To make my portion of the [our] more clear, I'm only asking for a mild adjustment to a handful of the PB single-target attacks. A minor reduction (.2 to .4/s depending) to their animation times in the ST blasts, and a re-evaluation of Incandescent Strike as its Animation vs. Damage isn't really balanced when compared to equivalent Melee attacks. The net increase of something so minimal is a vague 20ish DPS increase, but the Quality of Life impact would be far greater.

And, because I forgot to integrate this at the appropriate point: Yes, PB's are built like brickhouses defensively, but so are Warshades, which loops right back to "Warshades > PB". The ultimatum for Players to consider, is at what point do you start taking things away to give the PB a better hand. Additionally, Cosmic Balance. The entire argument is all in Solo performance, where it actually matters. Cosmic Balance is... (in my opinion) rather useless. Nice to have, but not breaking my back over 75% of its bonuses being useless to me after level 38.

Edit: Okay, so, not really that short, but hey!

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

I know how to do it, but in watching people farm in general most people do not achieve this. I'd be very happy to watch you farm, because going back literally months I haven't seen that many WS players farm and get the maximum potential from the Extractions.

I can bump to any server or perhaps already be on it.

However in teams with someone else taking the aggro this is easier to do but still people do not achieve nigh maximum dps potential from the pets as easily as they could photon seekers. On paper it can look as though WS far out gun PBs and with easily played farming, but in reality for most of the entire player base maybe not. Maybe the only thing Devs will care about as far as balance is possibly concerned is what the playerbase as a whole are achieving rather than the one or two exceptional Pro's.

Warshades aren't suited for farming. At their very best, sure, Warshades CAN farm, but not at top rate speeds. Warshades at their best are Tank/Dominator hybrids, especially after hybrid came out (see what I did there? Derp) with its nice 50% of the time taunt aura. That with provoke makes Warshades able to leverage their survivability (believe it or not, OD does hold aggro a bit on its own too) and the controls are leveraged (Inky/Emanation/Unchain) to provide great aggro a.) management b.) control; Alpha strike soaking (hardcapped resistance to everything, 32.5% defense to all positions, and an endless supply of HP/End from Stygian Circle? Yup!) and disarming of enemies all at once. The damage is nice too, but for top notch Warshades it's really just a bonus. While everything is either stumbling around drunk or aggroed to the Warshade, thus, *generally* protecting all team mates, the Warshade is still pumping out enough ST to solo a level 54 AV, and respectable AOE between Knockdown Dark Detonation, Unchain Essence, Judgement, Mire, Orbiting Death and 3 fluffies pwning things. Oh, right, and there are the team mates too. They buff your damage just by being on your team and letting you carry them.

PBs are in general governed by how people slot. This means yours might not have endurance problems but somebody elses will in trying to keep up with a WS. It is also based on power picks and consistent use of powers. Generally PBs do not have the means to achieve WS levels of persistence.

The Data is bollocks to me, contrary to peoples beliefs I do use excel. I do it differently to how others do it. I don't have this concept where PBs take ST powers and WS take AoEs and they should be balanced when it comes to XP/time and with whatever concept I do have I do realise that there is what can be said on paper and what can be had ingame. Everyone has percieved opinions.

I see that between the two ATs, if a full team was made up of them then potentially the pre-incarnate game is a walk over, you do not need other ATs but this is only if certain powers aren't skipped by everyone. There is a package. The PB will provide for the WS where a WS can not provide for itself and visa versa. As a package, great. I don't feel I need to be told why certain powers are there and what they can be used for. All the skippable fluff isn't entirely skippable fluff to me. Holistically they are there, and getting improved in the right ways. I could easily look back at the changes and think "that was the correct change to make" and also think "it is better to allow for further datamining before more changes" and I simply do have the patience for that and trust the Devs to take them in the right direction rather than pop my head in every two weeks and start a new thread on how to fix kheldians.

When you reduce the animation times you might have to take from an aesthetically pleasing graphic animation. Something that maybe can't really happen even for budget/priority reasons so there can be limits there. Then there is the fact that you will recover less endurance over that animation which may impede people anyway in a long enough fight therefore achieving so little in terms of DPS or fight duration that it's not making it really worth the change. Overall all sets have this issue. PVP has been fought and won over the number of attacks that can be dealt within a build up period. DPA really applies to burst. Dawn Strike and Photons used consecutively are already a great deal of burst.


In whose arena? In a Royal Rumble I expect a WS to do well but in a two men enters one man leaves cage match I expect the PB to do well. They're not meant to exist for the same reasons, they're meant to compliment eachother and they do.