How would you "fix" Kheldians?
FWIW my warshade can cycle kd detonation and dwarf mire almost continuously with the new form shift times. Bear in mind I only do this when I'm exemplared below eclipse levels and my build does run about 165 ish recharge with hasten. My point being that I can pump out similar levels of burst aoe but can also run an optimal St chain in human form. So there's something to be said of biforms even if they are a little odd.
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Yeah but the double mire'd Nova Blasts are what makes tri form so good at AOE, it's the best AOE available to Warshades. Quasar helps too, and obviously fluffies if you can keep them alive. That's pretty hard to do on a farm map though like Stone said, and to be fair, also like Stone has already said, any type of pet is going to struggle to survive on a farm map, Lore pets included.
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Wow. Just about everything I know about agriculture on a Warshade contradicts something everyone in this thread has said. I'm not even sure how this thread got hijacked into arguing about it when anything the devs do to improve Kheldians will NOT be done with farmers in mind.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Right. Well, to use your car analogy; if one person can fix up their car and drive it in such a way that they can regularly pop onto 2 wheels with it, that does not mean that those cars that can't do that need to be upgraded. It would be an interesting gimmick, but it is not relevant to normal conditions for a normal car.
Frankly, the whole premise is silly. You summon out some lore pets next time you farm, and tell me how long they last. I suppose they need to be buffed too? |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
ND if you want to see a farming Warshade so badly talk to Dechs or AIB. They both play high recharge AOE centric tri form builds.
I play a human form Warshade, so does Alien. We both play human only because of the versatility, everyone knows that tri form does the most AOE which obviously would make it the best suited build style for farming. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
You are silly, you keep coming up with silly analogies to something you just do not get. You have no idea of what possible outcomes can be had by watching different various players solo similar instances other than perhaps what you already think you know, which to me is silly.
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It has no effect!
New Dawn uses False Premise.
Stone ignores the attack!
Stone uses Examples and Reasoning.
New Dawn has dodged the attack!
New Dawn uses You Don't Know What You're Talking About Silly Silly Person.
Stone falls asleep.
Stone uses Logic.
It has no effect! New Dawn uses False Premise. Stone ignores the attack! Stone uses Examples and Reasoning. New Dawn has dodged the attack! New Dawn uses You Don't Know What You're Talking About Silly Silly Person. Stone falls asleep. |
Maybe there's a language barrier or something, but I don't even understand what ND is talking about at this point, and I'm not even saying this to be mean. I feel like she is simply unable to make herself understood, because everything you've said has made perfect sense to me.
ND, would you be willing to calmly, politely (and preferably concisely) restate exactly what it is you are talking about? Here are some questions to help you along the way:
1.) Do you believe that fluffies are underperforming because they can't withstand a 54x8 onslaught, even though no pets (except Phantom Army) could do so reliably?
2.) Do you believe that because of this extreme example, fluffies are automatically irrelevant as a valid means of AOE damage?
3.) Do you think it's unreasonable that low HP pets with no real defense or resistance are apt to die when their owner is past the aggro cap at max difficulty settings?
Anything else you'd like to add to make exactly what you're talking about clearly understood would also be appreciated.
AIB farms on his Warshade all the time. I'm sure Dechs could too if he felt so inclined and someone asked him to, his Warshade is built for spawn melting.
Any test that doesn't have to do directly with farming should not use farming as it's basis. Farming is, in almost all cases, not part of the game. it is player content put in the game, and (iirc) something the devs do not condone. Therefore, any tests of Extracted Essence inconceivability should stay as far from a farm as physically possible.
The most extreme content you are going to find in the actual game solo is going to be Dark Astoria. If you must test the extremes, test there. Even that is only a small subset of the game, however, so you should also test in tip and paper missions.
But not farming.
I read your response on my lunch break and spent the rest of the afternoon LOL'ing.
I think this about sums up everything:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Maybe there's a language barrier or something, but I don't even understand what ND is talking about at this point, and I'm not even saying this to be mean. I feel like she is simply unable to make herself understood, because everything you've said has made perfect sense to me.
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I'm honestly not familiar enough with that mechanic having never played anything that used it, so I can't say for sure whether or not I think it'd be a good idea.
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![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
From what I have read (and bear in mind my reading comprehension needs slots) the absorb mechanic effectively operates like ablative armor. In other words, it gives you extra hit points like Dull Pain.
Unlike Dull Pain (and other +hit point powers) these extra hit points do not count towards your hit point cap (at least I don't think they do) and they definitely do not add to your regen the way +hp do.
While you have an absorb mechanic active, any damage you take (after resistance is taken into effect) affects those absorption hit points first before they start whittling away at your actual hit points.
Kind of like the Enterprise's shields.
...did I get that right?
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Wow. I really have to search to find your post to respond to!
![]() From what I have read (and bear in mind my reading comprehension needs slots) the absorb mechanic effectively operates like ablative armor. In other words, it gives you extra hit points like Dull Pain. Unlike Dull Pain (and other +hit point powers) these extra hit points do not count towards your hit point cap (at least I don't think they do) and they definitely do not add to your regen the way +hp do. While you have an absorb mechanic active, any damage you take (after resistance is taken into effect) affects those absorption hit points first before they start whittling away at your actual hit points. Kind of like the Enterprise's shields. ...did I get that right? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
I guess it's sort of like the opposite of Spectral Wounds.
So anyway, to sum it all up I had speculated about changing our inherent to give teammate-based procs similar to the way interface attaches procs to powers.
Instead of a straight up damage buff for every kheld-appropriate teammate in range, peacebringers and warshades would get a chance for extra energy (or NE) damage with each attack for every appropriate teammate in range.
The slow resistance granted by other epics would be replaced by a small recharge proc, and - after having thought about it - the resist bonus would be replaced by an absorption proc.
Alone and on small to medium-sized teams there'd be no measurable difference in performance. On leagues and large teams, however, it would free us from our respective caps and let us contribute something besides versatility, which is in abundance with or without us in those circumstances.
Just summing it up here in case it got lost in the storm of farming debates...
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Any test that doesn't have to do directly with farming should not use farming as it's basis.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Just so you know, just because farmers are asked to be watched, doesn't mean someone is looking to do something with farmers in mind.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
You have no idea of what possible outcomes can be had by watching different various players solo similar instances other than perhaps what you already think you know, which to me is silly.
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Also, just because these few things kinda stuck out for me:
Originally Posted by New Dawn
...yours might not have endurance problems but somebody elses will in trying to keep up with a WS. It is also based on power picks and consistent use of powers. Generally PBs do not have the means to achieve WS levels of persistence.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
If I fail to fix a car with all the right tools at my disposal its not the tools fault its mine.
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This is followed with her opinion that their endurance efficiency depends on their build and their slots.
I believe the third quote finishes things. Between Conserve Power, Light Form and it's recovery buff, and the general slotting of powers, PB's have all the tools needed to manage their endurance. If they are not using these tools then the endurance problems are their own fault, not the fault of the Peacebringer itself.
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For my own thoughts, Peacebringers play like someone messed up the switches on a fireworks display and everything went off at once. They can open up with pretty substantial bang with their heavy AoE's and/or ST attacks. The problem I have is what happens after all the big explosions go off. Which is - from what I can tell - nothing. After the heavy AoE's go off (of which I'm primarily thinking of Photon Seekers, Dawn Strike, and Solar flare, there's not much to follow it up with and those big ones are on a pretty long recharge. Likewise, you can hit a single target pretty hard with Incandescent and Radiant, but after you fire off those two you're left only with Bolt and Blast. Neither of them have a lot of damage behind them but because there are no other options while the two melee attacks are recharging and it is their lack in damage that brings down the sustained DPS.
Maybe this is intentional though? Maybe they're supposed to hit the enemy hard just once and be done after that...? If so, they I have to admit it does feel like Peacebringers are more of a collectors item; something nice to look at but not anything you really want to take out of the box.
It feels to me that the pace of City of Heroes has picked up from what it used to be years back and Peacebringers have just gotten left behind. Literally. I can imagine a time (whether real or not?) when the Peacebringer ran into a group, annihilated it, then had to skip the next group and let the other seven people on the team handle it while the powers came back up.
Honestly I kind of like that idea, but as teams and individuals have grown able to clear groups faster and faster and faster, Peacebringers now only have a chance to shine maybe every third group. Or fourth. Or fifth. To make matters worse, when the PB does get its chance to try for the spotlight it can't just step forward like it (might?) have used to, it has to compete with the rest of the team and their quicker pace.
Instead of being this somewhat awe-inspiring force that needs rest between displays of power, it's now only able to match the pace of the rest of the team one out of every 3 or so groups.
Maybe it's a little over-reaching to imagine the Peacebringer as equal to the rest of an entire group (especially in an age where now almost any AT can solo AV's - anyone else remember when it was only the Ill/Rad controllers who could manage that?) but it's called an Epic AT, darnit. If the idea behind the Peacebringer is indeed that it should hit really hard right away and then flicker out for a time, I just don't see a way of making that fit into today's City of. Speed it up and/or increase the damage and it becomes too scrappery/blastery, is what most of the people who are against those ideas seem to fear.
(/sarcasm disclaimer: In case it wasn't caught, I was using epic jokingly.)
In my view, the question Peacebringers don't have an answer for is "how does the AT take down a hard target in an extended fight?"
Warshades find a lot of minions to pull Mire's from and beat face.
Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters, Stalkers..? Well, they were made to beat face. I suppose Soldiers of Arachnos fit in here too.
Controllers, and Corruptors rely on debuffing the target and then bringing it down.
Masterminds either buff their pets and/or debuff the enemy, then let the pets take the enemy down.
Defenders tend to buff themselves and/or debuff the target until they're putting out high enough damage.
Dominators hold the target to protect themselves and then tear the enemy down at leisure.
... I'm unsure about Tanks, honestly, never played one. But they were given gauntlet to improve ST damage, so... maybe they have something?
But Tanks aside, how does the Peacebringer take down a hard target in sustained combat? From the DPS numbers people put out...? They don't. At least not yet.
(On the topic of DPS, I do need to offer an apology to John. Had I known asking him to look at my PB build to see if DPS could be improved would end up with him sticking his head into the pit of dispa- I mean, the Peacebringer forums...?)
I guess it's sort of like the opposite of Spectral Wounds.
So anyway, to sum it all up I had speculated about changing our inherent to give teammate-based procs similar to the way interface attaches procs to powers. Instead of a straight up damage buff for every kheld-appropriate teammate in range, peacebringers and warshades would get a chance for extra energy (or NE) damage with each attack for every appropriate teammate in range. The slow resistance granted by other epics would be replaced by a small recharge proc, and - after having thought about it - the resist bonus would be replaced by an absorption proc. Alone and on small to medium-sized teams there'd be no measurable difference in performance. On leagues and large teams, however, it would free us from our respective caps and let us contribute something besides versatility, which is in abundance with or without us in those circumstances. Just summing it up here in case it got lost in the storm of farming debates... |
First, absorb sounds neat, but in my opinion if we took your idea of +absorb and combined it with my earlier idea, it'd serve the AT's best; I originally proposed +def instead, but I can see how that'd be pretty OP, and absorb is probably a better mechanic to use. Still though, if we look at what the +absorb totals would be if it functioned the same way as our +resist does currently and took maybe, 50% of that total and gave it to the Kheld, and 25% of it to the team mates, that would be better. Maybe this would be best only for Peacebringers from a thematic perspective, but I'm proposing that it work the same way on Warshades for simplicity. Obviously which AT's gave +res and +dmg would still be different per each AT.
I absolutely like your proc idea in lieu of +dmg though.
PB have an easier time at taking down a hard target than WS. Because inding more bodies to Mire is not an infinite thing, eventually you do run out of bodies. A PB is more self sustained, it doesn't rely on enemies for its offense and defense.
PB have an easier time at taking down a hard target than WS. Because inding more bodies to Mire is not an infinite thing, eventually you do run out of bodies. A PB is more self sustained, it doesn't rely on enemies for its offense and defense.
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With one mire target, my Warshade's current build will do 1168.8/8.052 for 145.16+57.23/2 (OD) for a total of 173.77 DPS (without fluffies.)
At maxed inner light, an equal budget PB will do 800.9/4.356 for 183.86 DPS.
So the PB beats the single target Mire'd Warshade (without any pets) by 10.09 DPS. Again, that's assuming max +dmg from IL the whole time, which is not how it actually works.
Now, my Warshade with a saturated Mire (again, still not counting pets) will do 1533.9/8.052 for 190.50+65.37/2 (OD) for a total of 223.185 DPS.
Where the PB beats out a single Mire targeted Warshade by ~10 DPS, a fuully Mired Warshade beats out a PB by 39.325 DPS. I'm sure you can see the disparity, and once again, these rough calcs heavily favored the PB.
Note: None of these calcs take -res procs into account, but my WS has a FOTG in OD and my PB has an achilles in all his ST attacks- They add *roughly* the same to each build, maybe slightly more for the PB, but not enough imo to close the gap. And if we can ignore fluffies, we can certainly ignore -res procs.
Second edit- Neither of the builds I used for this use Assault, Musculature or Hybrid. It stands to reason that if we add in all of the above for both builds though, the results would be the same, comparison wise.
I guess it's sort of like the opposite of Spectral Wounds.
So anyway, to sum it all up I had speculated about changing our inherent to give teammate-based procs similar to the way interface attaches procs to powers. Instead of a straight up damage buff for every kheld-appropriate teammate in range, peacebringers and warshades would get a chance for extra energy (or NE) damage with each attack for every appropriate teammate in range. The slow resistance granted by other epics would be replaced by a small recharge proc, and - after having thought about it - the resist bonus would be replaced by an absorption proc. Alone and on small to medium-sized teams there'd be no measurable difference in performance. On leagues and large teams, however, it would free us from our respective caps and let us contribute something besides versatility, which is in abundance with or without us in those circumstances. Just summing it up here in case it got lost in the storm of farming debates... |
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I love Joe's idea too- I would just like to look at the assumed values of our current self survivability (resistance/absorb/whatever it is) and take 25% away from it, in order to give 25% of the original inherent buff (again, survivability side only) to all of our teammates and 50% of the original value to ourselves, because, let's face it- Khelds aren't exactly hurting for survivability. We are hurting in team contribution though, at least on the PB side, and on the side of people like Microcosm who use their Warshades for nothing but damage.
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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That's true in a general sense, but the performance gap between an unmired Warshade and a Peacebringer vs. a mire'd Warshade and a Peacebringer is not the same. Let me pull up my Kheld builds to illustrate my point- I'm going to do this simply and assume max buff for inner light at all times, so if anything these numbers will be weighted towards the PB.
With one mire target, my Warshade's current build will do 1168.8/8.052 for 145.16+57.23/2 (OD) for a total of 173.77 DPS (without fluffies.) At maxed inner light, an equal budget PB will do 800.9/4.356 for 183.86 DPS. So the PB beats the single target Mire'd Warshade (without any pets) by 10.09 DPS. Again, that's assuming max +dmg from IL the whole time, which is not how it actually works. Now, my Warshade with a saturated Mire (again, still not counting pets) will do 1533.9/8.052 for 190.50+65.37/2 (OD) for a total of 223.185 DPS. Where the PB beats out a single Mire targeted Warshade by ~10 DPS, a fuully Mired Warshade beats out a PB by 39.325 DPS. I'm sure you can see the disparity, and once again, these rough calcs heavily favored the PB. Note: None of these calcs take -res procs into account, but my WS has a FOTG in OD and my PB has an achilles in all his ST attacks- They add *roughly* the same to each build, maybe slightly more for the PB, but not enough imo to close the gap. And if we can ignore fluffies, we can certainly ignore -res procs. Second edit- Neither of the builds I used for this use Assault, Musculature or Hybrid. It stands to reason that if we add in all of the above for both builds though, the results would be the same, comparison wise. |
The results here do depend on the builds. The Peacebringer used for this might of skipped an AoE which will have a maximum amount of targets and a frequency of use.
THB gave me two top end builds months ago the likes of which I have to say are actually fantastic human form builds. I said no one else will see them and no one else has from me anyway. I did put these builds into excel. Included pets, included buffs, included everything needed basically. I also did one for pure Warshades and Peacebringers on simple SOs.
I ordered the attacks in order of ST DPA, I then multiplied them by maximum number of targets, reordered them again. Attack chained them between either every second Sunless Mire or Photon Seeker deployment so not some simple straight attack chain but one using the best attack when it came up. I also got the average damage buff of Innerlight bang on.
Between Photon Seekers only 5 attacks needed to be used. Between Every Sunless Mire 5 attacks were used, Dark Extraction and Unchained Essence were used once between 2 Sunless Mires.
It assumed that Dark Extractions hit with their single target attacks and their cone attacks as often as possible. The idea of me watching people farm was to see on average what people achieve in reality, to calm the average DPS figure of Dark Extraction down. The PB in reality won't achieve the DPS figures it has shown on my Excel due to displacing mobs out of line of fire of it's other attacks once a KB is used, it won't also because of the number of non attacking clicks used to self sustain itself.
Within the right team and with the right team dynamics ie with a controller with immobs that do -KB the PB looks like it could be made to perform better but team make ups are not always a given or players will not always capitalize on the best team dynamic.
All calcs are always going to be rough. The game is going to be updated based upon Devs datamining (basing things upon what the players actually achieve) and so the playing field changes making the goal posts move in ways people may or may not agree with, with concept design in mind that players may or may not truly see.
To cut out long story nonsense, I will state the obvious, performance is different per person. All those with problems with PBs will highlight them, all those without will be silent. The Devs to my mind are going to look at things like leveling speed etc.
In my view things are arguably okay, new IO sets could tone down AoE KB and AoE damage output for PBs and PBs will still be okay. People can change their build through choice.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Those are ST numbers
1.) Do you believe that fluffies are underperforming because they can't withstand a 54x8 onslaught, even though no pets (except Phantom Army) could do so reliably?
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2.) Do you believe that because of this extreme example, fluffies are automatically irrelevant as a valid means of AOE damage?
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3.) Do you think it's unreasonable that low HP pets with no real defense or resistance are apt to die when their owner is past the aggro cap at max difficulty settings?
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AIB farms on his Warshade all the time. I'm sure Dechs could too if he felt so inclined and someone asked him to, his Warshade is built for spawn melting.
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Unlike you, they don't appear to brag about things. If they wanted me to see them farm and take data, I don't feel confident if I would be getting anything better than I already have got.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Y'know what? You can take your math and farm underperforming khelds and toss them in the round file cabinet. I just want to be able to -choose- which animations to use for my PB. I WANT FOOTSTOMP BACK.![Mad](images/smilies/mad.gif)
![Mad](images/smilies/mad.gif)