How would you "fix" Kheldians?

I watched your Blaster do that farm with Cagney for the entirety of it. The pain, omg the pain. I even spoke to you briefly from Cagney, just you would of never of known but note I was pleasant. Anyway I do realise that we are not talking pro farmer but it can farm, just like your blaster can manage to farm. Usually with most peoples PBs they are limited by endurance, you rechg the snot out of them, use the strongest DPAs asap which means attacks that each keep costing endurance even more often, replenishment is not so simple. PBs have the potential to out DPS a WS but are limited by endurance and the fact they Kb mobs outside of the range of their attacks, there are clickies for survival that do no damage but take away from dps and then to top it off if WS Extractions do a lot of surviving and cone attacks then there is a real difference. I'd like to see your WS farm, I'd like to see how much survivability/cone damage your Extractions can achieve whilst you're powering through some mobs. This may help me finalize my ideas on what should be done to a PB next.

I do min/max, I do use excel and some of the top bar to what I do looks like this. Just some of it. But expectations on sheets =! expectations in game:

Power Cast time Eff Dur(s) EPC DPC Rch DPE DPA Freq DPS Buff DPE Buff DPC Buff DPA Buff DPS DPS*Buff Dur DPS*0buff Dur Ave DPS Max Targets Pot BDPS EPA Max E EPS Time to 0E0ER MaxDPend bar Max Usage Rnd Up Max Cast DPA AoE

I still don't understand what you hope to achieve by measuring a fluffies life expectancy from a farm run. That's a bit like measuring the average DPS from an AoE attack versus a pylon. Or testing the durability of your armor set by seeing how long it can last against the Hamidon.

No it isn't at all. You're comparing xp/time potential between warshades and peacebringers. That's not hard to do. You are also eliminating fiction from fact. There is what people say they can do and what can actually be done. Several farms from several people gives a sample. Devs may just see how fast people level with PBs or gain reward over time with PBs and compare that with WS's to know which is lagging. It may take time to work out in which way something is lagging or it may take time to choose the most original conceptually based means to reduce the difference in performance. I wouldn't expect every single change to come down to raising a sets damage level or changing its defense as they are quick obvious cut and paste ideas players come up with, a change might be adding secondary effect resistance for something subtle and then allowing time to see improvement.

Derp, anything without a taunt aura would struggle to nitpick farm like that. The mandate of 'must chase down everything' is TERRIBLE for reward rates. I only followed that mandate because I was basically backed into a corner about it.

It's funny that I just pieced together your preferred style of nitpick farming is very similar to your preferred style of nitpick posting. >.>

I think you had the chance to do the farm of choice afterwards, prove a point and never did. I could ask Cagney right this second to back me up on it. With your WS you can do the farm of choice. Alien One has already farmed for me. It proved useful. What went on tour stayed on tour. I wasn't the one trying to back you into a corner, he (Cagney) was. You males tend to have this ego worth protecting or some sort of competitiveness towards eachother if you ask me. So what if I am sexist.

We talked about doing 1-50 PL time comparisons but I ended up not playing COH for a bit and since I started playing more regularly it hasn't been discussed. Not that any of this is even remotely relevant to Warshades. Did you not see me lead off with 'Warshades aren't the best farmers?' I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing against there, but I don't think it's anything I've said.

And if "my friend can vouch" is a currency now, feel free to ask Stone, AIB, Microcosm and Speedy (Bionut on the forums I think?) how well my Blasters can PL.

You are either putting a lot more emphasis on the word 'basically' in real life which is struggling to come across over the internet, or this statement is false.

Yes, it is.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that you're putting warshades in an abnormal situation, which has no relevance to normal play.

So you admit your whole scenario is contrived, then?

What people...say they can do? Who are these people? What are they saying? What use does farm data serve? You know, besides painting fluffies in a bad light because they can't handle all the extra aggro from a farm that is stacked against them. Guess what? No other pets can survive farming maps for long, either. Warshades aren't farmers*. The data you "collect" from putting them in such a situation under such conditions is about as useful as my earlier examples.

*Just because something can survive a farm does not make them a farmer.

Uh? I made it clear ahead of time that I don't ever clear entire caves when I farm, you said yourself after I linked you to the post that you "missed" it. Derp. I still obliged and did it anyways, because you put me in a position where you said, "I'm going first," and did it your way- Which I'm not saying wasn't impressive, because it was- And then left me in a position where I felt pressured to exactly what you did. chasing down runners without a taunt aura slows down reward rates exponentially. I had things scattering all over the place after I hit ROA. When I farm on my Blasters I hit the bulk and move on to the next group. Most people I know farm like that, even some Brutes. The only reason why anyone even uses patrol farms is because ambushes got nerfed and patrols are the next best option for being surrounded by enemies past the aggro cap.

Yeah I don't know how farming got brought into it, I specifically mentioned in the post that got ND to start talking about farming that Warshades are not a farming AT. I think what she's saying is that the life expectancy of EE's in a farming situation makes them unreliable damage output, but in the reality of the game which is what Stone has been saying, during normal content they are alive and well quite a bit of the time. The farming argument you're seeing me participate in is completely irrelevant to Warshades and not even remotely on topic, but ND brought it up and I engaged her. My bad on that one.

Hahaha. What are you up to dude? Me and Stone are doing a Citadel in a bit.

I find it fascinating that the most common occurrence when buff/nerf/balance discussions occur on the forums is that the discussion drives itself to irrelevant extremes. Why anyone would want to moot themselves is to me an impenetrable mystery.

Warshades have a better Endurance-Filler, but no one is contending with that. PB's have a reasonable amount of assistance to deal with their End Bars on their own. Despite your opinion, they are actually sufficient to maintain a PB endlessly. Been there, tested that.

This right here was about the only worthwhile piece to pull from your response (yes, I'm being cynical, live with it). You say you think Data--the data pulled directly from the game during live testing and use--is "bullocks"? I am not using "paper" (or, elgh, excel) charts here in anything I've said. I've made that quite clear since page one. What Warshades do, they are designed to do, and do it well. What PB's are designed to do they do not do as well as they should. For the most part (as already said) they function competently, and most will overlook the issue, but it does not ultimately change that the quip is there.

1.) This thread was a discussion, not a complaint. As has been done (for the most part), this is a discussion, don't drag it in the mud as otherwise.

2.) Again, again, again, PB's can handle Burst damage, this is why most deal with them in the interim. Their failure is in sustained damage. That is ultimately the developer's decision on determining: A.) Is it warranted in their view of the game, and B.) What is a fair adjustment if it Does change.

3.) You think men are competitive? Where did this even come from? No one is throwing them in a "cage match." The idea is to bring them onto equal terms. To terms where the Devs have already admitted PB's were not at.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again.

My Warshade doesn't farm. He plays the game. And in the game, his fluffies live out their full life expectancy the majority of the time.

After thinking about it, what if the resistance granted by the inherent were replaced by an absorb proc?

Look at what your quoting. I am saying that in teams the survivability of the dark extractions is easier achieve but the nigh maximum dps potential is still hard to achieve. This is because them pets often end up single targeting away rather than use their cones even when they could. Sometimes when cones are used they may only hit one or two, sometimes the cones won't be used due to player error, the players position within mobs has brought the pets only within range in which to single target and so the maximum dps from them in theory is often unachieveable. What is achieveable, (lets spread it across the player base and get an average here) is well below maximum potential possibly not causing warshades to outshine peacebringers in terms of xp/time or rewards over time as much as people think and if they do not then why do the devs feel the need to buff peacebringers? If they do but by only a little then subtle changes maybe made overtime until everything looks about right.

It's alright people percieving things from their own little group of squares but what people achieve outside of those cliques and on some other server does matter.

I am not actually arguing. I've seen you farm once. I want to see you farm but this time with a WS and this time what goes on tour stays on tour. You'll be doing me a favour and as a result whatever the outcome its private.

I've always maintained that warshades are way down the list of my best toons. It's like the AT I occasionally think about when I am trying to get my concept right. Moving on, I have seen some warshades farm, and got myself an average expectation of what can actually be achieved in terms of dps from different players, including Alien One.

When you farm are we talking 3 pets out pretty much constantly and the more important thing you get them to enter cone range almost immediately so that they do not just sit there and ST. You do make yourself out to be a great Warshade player and you do farm. If you are the best. I'll see the best result so far.

You can make a warshade what farms, keeps three fluffies out over 90% of the time and basically clean up. It can be done. There is no bad light there. If I fail to fix a car with all the right tools at my disposal its not the tools fault its mine. That's actually where I see alot of people. If they can't do something, it can't be done therefore the Devs need to change the set so they can do it nevermind what other people can and can't achieve. So this looking at different farmers is actually looking at player skill. There is a said expectation from players that sometimes is true and sometimes its false. I remember when it was said Ice tanks couldn't tank LR yet there was SR scrappers doing it..weird. In deciding whether or not something needs a buff you have to look at what players can actually achieve imo. What is the average achievement? The bigger the sample of players the better.

Being as it you clearly didn't get my opinion is it worth me discussing things with you. My opinion is that it all depends on how a player builds and slots as to whether they are endurance efficient. That's not me saying that they can't.

If you wrote the complete guide on PBs I am going to put a fiver down that you would of missed something therefore this "they're not doing what they're designed to do as well as they should" is questionable.

Tell me as a PB player, someone who has used every single PB power, someone with an almost pure PB build apart from hasten what my PB is designed to do. I know what mine is designed to do. I designed her. If yours doesn't do what you want it to then join the club of many who all have their different ideas.

Data is often bollocks because there is one build designed to do X well being compared to another designed to do Y well.



You might look at this as a mud wrestling match but for me it's just something I do, yet do not know why I bother half the time with much more important stuff to get on with.


Your failure, you designed your toon. The Devs have a concept and sometimes it's just not what people think it should be but even so that concept has to stay true for the sake of the cottage rule. I see PBs trying to take damage when they didn't have to. Devs can't play the toons for people.


Men are naturally competitive. If you seperate boys from girls at school they can perform better by being taught differently. Boys aren't doing as well as they used to in British schools because they're being taught in a way that doesn't drive them.

Yes the idea is to bring them into equal terms. Equal terms will never be this one idea that suits all. You might never be happy because when they've decided on what equal is, it's still not what you wanted. I am trying to watch a sample of the player base solo the most rewarding content of their choice which is challenging and reaping to try and see what might not be equal to me, or you, or anyone but still be on average equal.

Right. Well, to use your car analogy; if one person can fix up their car and drive it in such a way that they can regularly pop onto 2 wheels with it, that does not mean that those cars that can't do that need to be upgraded. It would be an interesting gimmick, but it is not relevant to normal conditions for a normal car.

Frankly, the whole premise is silly. You summon out some lore pets next time you farm, and tell me how long they last. I suppose they need to be buffed too?

I'm honestly not familiar enough with that mechanic having never played anything that used it, so I can't say for sure whether or not I think it'd be a good idea.

FWIW my warshade can cycle kd detonation and dwarf mire almost continuously with the new form shift times. Bear in mind I only do this when I'm exemplared below eclipse levels and my build does run about 165 ish recharge with hasten. My point being that I can pump out similar levels of burst aoe but can also run an optimal St chain in human form. So there's something to be said of biforms even if they are a little odd.