So how do blasters feel about nukes going from scale 6.0 dmg to scale 4.0?

Adeon Hawkwood · 07-13-2012 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopeling

True, but using the actual Defender value of +50% damage from Aim reduces that back to 178.75%, dead even with the Blaster. Any Defiance at all would put the Blaster ahead again, even before considering the difference in base damage.

Oh yeah, I missed that. Well, in any case it still supports my actual point which was that Crashless Nukes DO NOT benefit Defenders and Corruptors more than Blasters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard

And you're BOTH forgetting that the bonus from Vigilance decreases on teams in proportion to team size, so you can knock that defender damage down a notch for every teammate they could have, right up to the point where it vanishes and becomes a complete non-factor. Blaster damage is NOT similarly altered.

Actually I'd disagree there. The situation I was positing is the "no external buffs/debuffs" situation which assumes a solo character so I do think including Vigilance is valid.

Yogi_Bare · 07-13-2012 09:21 AM

The change means that I'll probably be rolling more Blaster sets that I'll actually take and use the nukes for; that's going from a 0.0 damage scale to a 4.0 damage scale for me.

So, IMO, its all win (reduces my 'crash watch' by one when using Electrical or Force Mastery) and makes my PPF 'pop' tactics more viable.

Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Another_Fan · 07-13-2012 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood

Oh yeah, I missed that. Well, in any case it still supports my actual point which was that Crashless Nukes DO NOT benefit Defenders and Corruptors more than Blasters.

That isn't a given. The new nukes give defenders and corruptors a really powerful aoe/control power that they can now use without worrying about losing their toggles. Take a look at the case of the Rad/Ice defender that can now Blizzard->Ice Storm-> Frost Breat all the while leaving radiation infection and enervating field running on the spawn.

The same holds true for other debuffers that can now keep their toggles running through a nuke when they couldn't before.

Adeon Hawkwood · 07-13-2012 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

That isn't a given. The new nukes give defenders and corruptors a really powerful aoe/control power that they can now use without worrying about losing their toggles. Take a look at the case of the Rad/Ice defender that can now Blizzard->Ice Storm-> Frost Breat all the while leaving radiation infection and enervating field running on the spawn.

The same holds true for other debuffers that can now keep their toggles running through a nuke when they couldn't before.

But at the end of the day is there any difference between a Rad Defender being able to keep his toggles up and (for example) a Devices Blaster keeping Targeting Drone up to ensure that his follow on attacks hit? Both Blasters and Defenders have Toggle powers that they want to re-toggle after using their nuke before they resume attacking in fact I did some counting and my Blasters actually have about the same number of toggles as my Defenders.

Agent White · 07-13-2012 10:16 AM

No, at the end of the day why does it matter so much to some people what capability other ATs will receive out of this in relation to blasters?

It does not matter. This is an everybody wins scenario. Everybody that has a crashing T9 in a ranged blast set now has frequent access to them. This is a good thing. For Defenders and Corrupters it's a moderate bump in performance, where they were already performing great to begin with. For Blasters it's almost game changing because they now have easy access to one of their strongest powers in terms of damage, availability and even control. Between this, the range upgrade, the snipe changes and the inbuilt survivability into powers, the difference between old blasters and new blasters is going to be night and day. People will still roll blasters regardless of what corrupters and defenders can do. Some people just don't like playing those ATs. They want to be a blaster that blasts things. And now they can with more impunity.

Another_Fan · 07-13-2012 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent White

No, at the end of the day why does it matter so much to some people what capability other ATs will receive out of this in relation to blasters?

It does not matter. This is an everybody wins scenario.

Remember you felt that way the next time you join a league and its 90% tanks,scrappers and brutes. It's really important in any game that you have similar levels of effectiveness amongst the pieces. Otherwise what you see are masses of a few particular pieces.

Hyperstrike · 07-13-2012 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal_Naughton_Jr

It's actually Sunday Punch

I'm a working-class lapsed Catholic (all the guilt trips and none of the Sunday social commitments!). For me, the week starts on Monday.

Quote:

- but I love your ideas about Inferno. I've never tried Fire blasting but this is motivating me.

Seems like Fire/Something it would be a good follow up to the Water/Time character I'm working on (nearly 32 now!).

Yeah. It'd be funny to see a nuke blaster running around going

"Hey there!"
*BOOM!*
"How's it.."
*BOOM!*
"..going?"
*BOOM!*
"Oh! And did I mention?"
*BOOM!*
"Mwahahahahaaha!"

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Sailboat · 07-13-2012 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

It's really important in any game that you have similar levels of effectiveness amongst the pieces.

Certainly a key goal of good game design is to offer choices which are roughly equivalent in effectiveness. Rock-Scissors-Scissors sucks as a game, even if "Rock" fans advocate otherwise.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

dugfromthearth · 07-13-2012 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

Remember you felt that way the next time you join a league and its 90% tanks,scrappers and brutes. It's really important in any game that you have similar levels of effectiveness amongst the pieces. Otherwise what you see are masses of a few particular pieces.

blasters, brutes, tankers, and scrappers will never be as good on teams as controllers, defenders, corruptors, and SOA's. Yet people still play them.

the game does a good job of concealing how lame most AT's are on teams and how amazing others are, so people think that their scrapper is helping a team a lot.

The place it really matters is soloing where you have no one to carry you.

SinisterDirge · 07-13-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

The same holds true for other debuffers that can now keep their toggles running through a nuke when they couldn't before.

So blasters toggles still drop once they fire off their nukes? That's a slap in the face for sure. No wonder why people are saying it benefits defenders and corruptors more. I don't see how this change benefits blasters at all...

Adeon Hawkwood · 07-13-2012 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugfromthearth

blasters, brutes, tankers, and scrappers will never be as good on teams as controllers, defenders, corruptors, and SOA's. Yet people still play them.

the game does a good job of concealing how lame most AT's are on teams and how amazing others are, so people think that their scrapper is helping a team a lot.

Yep. Actually I find it amusing that Dominators got left off of both lists (so did MMs, but that's because they ARE a team). They do kind of occupy a middle ground don't they? They bring more to a team than the pure damage ATs but not quite as much as the actual support ATs. That being said a Domiantor is still a very useful character to have along for pretty much any content so I tend to rank them with the support ATs in terms of "characters I want to have along".

As for the population imbalance I think it's pretty much a given in most MMOs. People tend to, first and foremost, pick characters that they can solo easily which means that the majority of characters are those classes. In games with more limited options for team compositions and a required Tank-Healer-DPS ratio this leads to situations where it's hard for DPSers to find teams which tends to lead to more people rolling Tanks and Healers (or at least using a dual spec to have both on one character). In this game we are, in general, overpowered for most PvE content which tends to mitigate against the need for Support ATs. However Support ATs are even more overpowered than the others in a team setting.

newchemicals · 07-13-2012 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

That isn't a given. The new nukes give defenders and corruptors a really powerful aoe/control power that they can now use without worrying about losing their toggles. Take a look at the case of the Rad/Ice defender that can now Blizzard->Ice Storm-> Frost Breat all the while leaving radiation infection and enervating field running on the spawn.

The same holds true for other debuffers that can now keep their toggles running through a nuke when they couldn't before.

Re-toggling time was yet another deal breaker for crash nukes at least for me. Sure, some can deal with the end recovery faster such as Kin or /elec manip. All that time re-toggling is time not doing blasting or buff/debuff.

H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD

Agent White · 07-13-2012 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

Remember you felt that way the next time you join a league and its 90% tanks,scrappers and brutes. It's really important in any game that you have similar levels of effectiveness amongst the pieces. Otherwise what you see are masses of a few particular pieces.

Sure, why not. I love leagues like that because I get to hang back and pew pew to my heart's content, and now I get to do it more because I'll have my nukes to fire along with my judgment.

Don't be remiss if I take your hyperbole based pessimism with a grain of salt.

Arcanaville · 07-13-2012 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

Yeah. It'd be funny to see a nuke blaster running around going

"Hey there!"
*BOOM!*
"How's it.."
*BOOM!*
"..going?"
*BOOM!*
"Oh! And did I mention?"
*BOOM!*
"Mwahahahahaaha!"

My preliminary I24 Energy/Energy build has Burnout.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

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SinisterDirge · 07-13-2012 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

My preliminary I24 Energy/Energy build has Burnout.

2 guesses where you are dropping a OF proc.

Hyperstrike · 07-13-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

My preliminary I24 Energy/Energy build has Burnout.

With a recharge of 37-38 seconds, Burnout almost isn't necessary.

You're the numbers wonk here. Factor out the full activation+animation times against floored recharge numbers for BU+AIM+NUKE+Recovery Power

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Garent · 07-13-2012 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

With a recharge of 37-38 seconds, Burnout almost isn't necessary.

The only reason the new nukes won't be getting used every spawn is because they'll be too good at increasing kill time. I'm sensing the return of the all blaster super team that staggers its nukes to wipe groups one after the other.

Rakeeb · 07-13-2012 04:16 PM

Thunderous Blast will have a recharge of approx 22 seconds at 400% Recharge, which is a tough but doable reach.

Pretty nuts.

Another_Fan · 07-13-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent White

Sure, why not. I love leagues like that because I get to hang back and pew pew to my heart's content, and now I get to do it more because I'll have my nukes to fire along with my judgment.

Don't be remiss if I take your hyperbole based pessimism with a grain of salt.

I have been on leagues that were overwhelmingly composed of tanks and scrappers so its hardly hyperbole. Your statement that "IT DOES NOT MATTER" however is just unsupported opinion.

Arcanaville · 07-13-2012 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

With a recharge of 37-38 seconds, Burnout almost isn't necessary.

You're the numbers wonk here. Factor out the full activation+animation times against floored recharge numbers for BU+AIM+NUKE+Recovery Power

I already know my I24 Nova recharge is going to be about 40 seconds. But BU+Aim+Nova+Burnout+BU+Aim+Nova is living the dream.

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dugfromthearth · 07-13-2012 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

I already know my I24 Nova recharge is going to be about 40 seconds. But BU+Aim+Nova+Burnout+BU+Aim+Nova is living the dream.

sounds like blasters are overpowered and need to be nerfed

Rakeeb · 07-13-2012 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugfromthearth

sounds like blasters are overpowered and need to be nerfed

I don't know about you, but I'm OK with Blasters being AoE gods. They'll still be bad at not dying.

Agent White · 07-13-2012 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

I have been on leagues that were overwhelmingly composed of tanks and scrappers so its hardly hyperbole. Your statement that "IT DOES NOT MATTER" however is just unsupported opinion.

again, so? So you wind up the only blaster on a league of mostly tanks and scrappers. Good for you! Dare to be different. What other people play is not important. There are and will always be people that play Blasters, not because they're better or worse or anything else, but just because they want to play blasters. And these changes will likely make it more appealing for others to play the AT as well.

Arcanaville · 07-13-2012 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugfromthearth

sounds like blasters are overpowered and need to be nerfed

Go to your room.

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Neogumbercules · 07-13-2012 09:39 PM

I'm mostly excited about how this change, and the mentioned but not confirmed/promised/expected changes to VS, effect Elec Blast. If I am remembering correctly the TAoE nukes will recharge even faster than the PBAoE versions?

This has the potential of turning Elec Blast into a very capable AoE monster. It also has a snipe, so given the right build combinations, it could have very good ST damage as well if the insta-snipe changes go into effect as they are currently understood.