So how do blasters feel about nukes going from scale 6.0 dmg to scale 4.0?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-12 12:34 in Blasters
Quote:
By themselves, none of them that's why the end crash was too high a price.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And what nuke does that?
Edit: Absolute maximum Nova damage at the damage cap when all waves hit: 62.56 * 6 * 5.0 = 1876.8. Even level boss health at level 50: 2570.2. |
I guess I should have mentioned that I defiance buff my nuke before popping it.
In a single boss spawn the boss is the target of my pre-nuke single target attacks. In a multi-Boss spawn I'll thrown in AoEs while defiance buffing. When the nuke goes off there's usually nothing left (barring targets missed completely by the nuke). Any bosses that have a shred of health left have their run AI fully engaged.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Inferno can kill an even level boss at the damage cap if all waves hit.|
Originally Posted by Rejolt
I made a fire blaster just to one shot the even-level RedCaps at the end of Katie Hannon's second mission with Inferno after aim, build up, a few rages - Super speed and a stealth IO to get there.
Short story of it: Inferno with a lot of self buffing. |
Inferno damage first waves only (guaranteed): 1782.96
Inferno damage two waves: 2252.16
Inferno damage three waves: 2721.36
Inferno currently has only a 37.5% chance of killing a boss at the damage cap (at level 50). Slightly less, because the DoT has only a 99% chance of occurring and you need at least 8 of the 9 DoT ticks to kill that Boss. And the DoT is set to cancel on miss. (Meaning: the chances of defeating a boss by having all three Inferno waves hit and having at least the first eight DoT ticks land is about 34.6%: about one in three).
It is a bit better at lower levels since damage descales relative to critter health. The best possible result happens at level 32, albeit hitting a damage capped tier 9 at level 32 is problematic. At that level boss health is 1458.7 and Blaster scale 1.0 ranged damage is 48.03. It takes scale 6.07 damage at the cap to kill an even boss at level 32. Nova still can't do that (and neither can any tier 9 that does the same damage as Nova). Inferno can do that in theory by landing at least two waves and at least six DoT ticks (it can't do it with only the base wave). Your odds have improved to 82% chance of killing an even boss at level 32 at the damage cap with Inferno including the DoT (the boss will die about seven seconds after the initial activation of inferno).
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Quote:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...93#post4281893|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Not to jump in on a side in your discussion but I question the "as much as said so" in terms of Blasters with mez protection. I find this hard to accept since having several discussions with him about Khelds made it clear that mez protection was not in their future. I would find it..."interesting" if he had a different/changed stance but only when it comes to blasters. You have a quote?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
Taking control of a player's character away from that player for protracted periods of time is very frustrating. We agree with this. We would just rather address it from the NPC side (e.g., "Do it right") then hack something into Blasters which fundamentally changes the feel of the AT while only kicking the status protection can down the road.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
1. Defiance is meaningless. My calculations are for fully damage capped tier 9s.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
By themselves, none of them that's why the end crash was too high a price.
I guess I should have mentioned that I defiance buff my nuke before popping it. In a single boss spawn the boss is the target of my pre-nuke single target attacks. In a multi-Boss spawn I'll thrown in AoEs while defiance buffing. When the nuke goes off there's usually nothing left (barring targets missed completely by the nuke). Any bosses that have a shred of health left have their run AI fully engaged. |
2. The difference between the 87.5% chance of defeating a boss with the current tier 9 Nova and a 100% chance of defeating that same boss with the tactics you describe is scale 0.5 damage. Half of one blaster tier one attack. You're not going to notice the difference, except for the fact that in I24 the boss will be dead far more often than now.
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Quote:
You've missed my point. The boss has taken enough damage from the attacks targeted on them while I'm defiance buffing that the nuke finishes them and the spawn. It's certainly not meaningless and is a tactic that I have been using since shortly after D2.0 was put into place.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
1. Defiance is meaningless. My calculations are for fully damage capped tier 9s.
2. The difference between the 87.5% chance of defeating a boss with the current tier 9 Nova and a 100% chance of defeating that same boss with the tactics you describe is scale 0.5 damage. Half of one blaster tier one attack. You're not going to notice the difference, except for the fact that in I24 the boss will be dead far more often than now. |
For my Energy/Energy/Force blaster as an example, vs a single boss spawn the single boss has taken ~2000 damage before the nuke without procs. In a Multi boss spawn, one boss takes about ~1100 damage and the rest take ~500 excluding procs before the nuke.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
No, you're missing the point. You still haven't given an example where the I23 nuke does what you say it does - kills bosses - and the I24 nuke would not. The difference is too small to matter in the situations you mention.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You've missed my point. The boss has taken enough damage from the attacks targeted on them while I'm defiance buffing that the nuke finishes them and the spawn. It's certainly not meaningless and is a tactic that I have been using since shortly after D2.0 was put into place.
For my Energy/Energy/Force blaster as an example, vs a single boss spawn the single boss has taken ~2000 damage before the nuke without procs. In a Multi boss spawn, one boss takes about ~1100 damage and the rest take ~500 excluding procs before the nuke. |
Today, you shoot up the boss and then pop Nova. Today, you only kill that boss *sometimes* unless you pump enough damage to *guarantee* that even if only the first wave hits Nova still kills him. And if you do, the I24 Nova will also kill him guaranteed.
If you don't, then its just possible that you will hit the boss with just enough damage that 87.5% of the time the I23 Nova will kill him while the I24 Nova will not. The odds of that happening are rather low: even if you were at the damage cap, the difference is about 150 points of damage on a target with 2570 health: its less than a single power bolt. Its only slightly higher than a single Brawl.
Now, if you're saying that you have this playstyle where you always shoot just the right amount of damage into the target such that the I23 Nova can kill it with two waves but the I24 Nova cannot at the damage cap, and you really really need to have the boss live at least one time in eight as opposed to shooting at the boss one more time before triggering Nova, then yes, your playstyle would be adversely affected by the I24 change.
But to be direct, I would want video proof that you can even tell that's happening. Its not possible to regulate your damage consistently on a target to within scale 0.5, since that's only a fraction of an attack. What sort of magic leprechaun do you have activating your attacks that this is even possible on a regular basis?
And no matter what, your assertion that your tactic can kill the boss with certainty except for the 5% chance of missing *proves* that the I24 Nova would do just as well, because the only way that statement is true is if you pump enough damage into the boss to allow a scale 3.0 attack to kill it, and I24 Nova will deal scale 4.0. Its mathematically impossible for you to be simultaneously telling the truth that your tactic works, and it won't work in I24.
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Quote:
I don't yet know if my tactics will work with the I24 version. I have not yet tested it to see. The defiance buffing examples I have been giving are strictly I23.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
No, you're missing the point. You still haven't given an example where the I23 nuke does what you say it does - kills bosses - and the I24 nuke would not. The difference is too small to matter in the situations you mention.
Today, you shoot up the boss and then pop Nova. Today, you only kill that boss *sometimes* unless you pump enough damage to *guarantee* that even if only the first wave hits Nova still kills him. And if you do, the I24 Nova will also kill him guaranteed. If you don't, then its just possible that you will hit the boss with just enough damage that 87.5% of the time the I23 Nova will kill him while the I24 Nova will not. The odds of that happening are rather low: even if you were at the damage cap, the difference is about 150 points of damage on a target with 2570 health: its less than a single power bolt. Its only slightly higher than a single Brawl. Now, if you're saying that you have this playstyle where you always shoot just the right amount of damage into the target such that the I23 Nova can kill it with two waves but the I24 Nova cannot at the damage cap, and you really really need to have the boss live at least one time in eight as opposed to shooting at the boss one more time before triggering Nova, then yes, your playstyle would be adversely affected by the I24 change. But to be direct, I would want video proof that you can even tell that's happening. Its not possible to regulate your damage consistently on a target to within scale 0.5, since that's only a fraction of an attack. What sort of magic leprechaun do you have activating your attacks that this is even possible on a regular basis? And no matter what, your assertion that your tactic can kill the boss with certainty except for the 5% chance of missing *proves* that the I24 Nova would do just as well, because the only way that statement is true is if you pump enough damage into the boss to allow a scale 3.0 attack to kill it, and I24 Nova will deal scale 4.0. Its mathematically impossible for you to be simultaneously telling the truth that your tactic works, and it won't work in I24. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
You do understand that the guaranteed damage from Nova today is scale 3.0, and the guaranteed damage from Nova in I24 is scale 4.0, correct? If you are concerned about guaranteed kills against *anything* I24 will *always* be better than I23, regardless of tactics. Since you mentioned certain kills except for misses, this is what Nova does with certainty today vs I24.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I don't yet know if my tactics will work with the I24 version. I have not yet tested it to see. The defiance buffing examples I have been giving are strictly I23.
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It only has a *chance* to do more damage today: 50% of the time it will do scale 4.5, and 37.5% of the time it will do scale 6.0. But 12.5% of the time, one out of eight, it only does scale 3.0. Tactics aren't the issue here, the expectation of a kill short of a miss is the issue here. I23 Nova only does an appreciably higher amount of damage than I24 Nova 37.5% of the time, about one in three firings. If you're concerned about average damage, I24 Nova does about 18% less damage than I23 Nova on average. But in terms of guaranteed kills, those averages don't matter. The minimum guaranteed damage of Nova matters. And that number is presumably getting universally higher in I24 for all nukes with damage waves based on developer statements.
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Milady...are you actually being serious about you being upset about the Nuke change?
Mechanically this is a fantastic buff.
Thematically I will sorely miss my apocalyptic end-all blast.
At least they'll keep the epic look.
Overall feeling of happy acceptance, looking forward to it.
This thread makes me want to gouge out my eyes.
Are people REALLY WHINING about this change?
The recharge time on nukes is being cut to LESS THAN HALF, and people are WHINING? This means that you can nuke much MUCH more often. Overall, I'd wager this change DOUBLES the amount of damage a blaster can do with their nukes.
And people are WHINING? What, you want fries with that, too? 
(Accepts the new nukes with joy and reverence.)
Quote:
I haven't seen anyone whining. Unless you are whining in your post? Are you whining about perceived whining? People seem to be considering the change and talking about all its facets.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Are people REALLY WHINING about this change?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I agree, I still can't believe all the whining but I had to sit back and remember all the Dom players who complained about the Domination Change. This in my opinion is worse though!
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Did you not read this thread or something? >>
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I haven't seen anyone whining. Unless you are whining in your post? Are you whining about perceived whining? People seem to be considering the change and talking about all its facets.
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Yes, you must be reading an entirely different thread and posted here by accident. Also there are a few other threads like this floating around.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I haven't seen anyone whining. Unless you are whining in your post? Are you whining about perceived whining? People seem to be considering the change and talking about all its facets.
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I read it. I am pretty sure people who are suggesting the need to gouge out their eyes have not. I am definitely sure people who suggest this is worse than the comments about the Dominator changes have not read this thread.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Did you not read this thread or something? >>
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Been running with a Water Blast Corruptor of late, and I gotta say having a decent-recharge crashless nuke is MUCH more enjoyable than the big crash nukes I've also run.
No more "I better not use it or I won't have it up for when I need it against a bad spawn". With Geyser, it's fire and forget until the next spawn, but it is up ON THE NEXT SPAWN.
That is huge. Basically the crash nukes are going from a situational power for me, to a power I will use every single time it's up. Need it for clearing a really bad spawn around a boss? Just takes me on average 20 to 30 seconds waiting for cooldown from the previous fight, and I'm good to go. No more minute plus twiddling of the thumbs. A mainstay of any Blast set, if you will.
The fact that Kheldian's are eventually getting the same nuke treatment kind of makes me wish I still had a Warshade. Quasar and Dawn Strike are my ultimate nuke shiny. Ah well, can't have everything.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
Quote:
Really?|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I haven't seen anyone whining.
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Let's examine the thread title in detail, just for starters.
"So how do blasters feel about nukes going from scale 6.0 dmg to scale 4.0?"
Hmmm. So, this thread title indicates that the damage on blaster nukes is getting cut by a third. That's 6.0 scale to 4.0 scale. Well, DANG! A ONE THIRD CUT?! Holy crap, that SUCKS!! Do the dev's expect us to believe this is anything but a huge nerf?!
It then asks how blasters 'feel' about this supposed slash in damage. Well, golly, I'd feel pretty mad about getting nerfed by a third! That's a HUGE NERF!
The thread title, and many, many posts, take no account of the other changes to nukes.
Namely, nukes are getting their recharge times cut by more than half, and their endurance costs cut by roughly three-quarters, at least. You mean blasters won't have to re-toggle every time they use these powers any more?
Golly, those seem like positive changes to ME. As a matter of fact, if you tally it up on your fingers and toes, it looks like nukes are getting just around DOUBLE the effectiveness out of this HUGE NERF. But there is no mention of anything positive about these changes.
The thread focuses solely upon a perceived negative.
That's whining.
Eh, I was gonna post in some other examples, but ya know, that one's plenty for me.
Quit whining about hugely positive changes. It's not productive.
I swear some people would complain about having a money tree in their back yard because raking up all the cash was hard work....
Quote:
So you are whining about perceived whining. I still disagree, this thread is almost entirely positive or thoughtful. There is very little complaining, mostly people expressing a positive view of the changes with a very few expressing mild concern about the very slight lowering of damage.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Eh, I was gonna post in some other examples, but ya know, that one's plenty for me.
Quit whining about hugely positive changes. It's not productive. I swear some people would complain about having a money tree in their back yard because raking up all the cash was hard work.... |
I am pretty sure I know why you did not post some other examples.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I'm pretty sure you didn't actually read the thread then. There's a pretty strong debate in the middle of the thread about the damage, which even spurred Arcanaville to do the calculations and post a separate thread just to prove the point. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
So you are whining about perceived whining. I still disagree, this thread is almost entirely positive or thoughtful. There is very little complaining, mostly people expressing a positive view of the changes with a very few expressing mild concern about the very slight lowering of damage.
I am pretty sure I know why you did not post some other examples. |
Why does it even matter to you anyway? Aren't you in effect whining about his whining about whining. And being wrong about it to begin with.
If you want to argue with him take it to PMs.
Quote:
He is gonna GOUGE OUT HIS OWN EYES! Save the eyes! |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Why does it even matter to you anyway?
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It bothers me to see people misrepresenting the thread. Most responders to this thread are in strong support of the dev changes. The few that responded in a negative way did so in a way I would not represent as whining.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
which even spurred Arcanaville to do the calculations and post a separate thread just to prove the point.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There are people nervous about the I24 Nuke changes which are almost entirely beneficial. And they do have a right to express their concern about that change.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Well, my primary blaster is AR/Ice, so this won't mean anything on that front, but this and the other blast set changes will make my long dormant Fire/Dev more fun, and make my Elec/Fire actually use Thunderous Blast a lot more often.
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My current stable of characters include a Energy/Elec Blaster and a Fire/Cold Corrupter.
I'm in raptures with these proposed nuke changes, and can't see any downside to them at all.
I remember my first nuke. Circling Brickstown on my Elec/Elec Blaster thinking "this power must be awesome - its on a huge recharge and drains all my energy." Finding groups of ten yellow/orange Crey minions and zapping them, and quickly getting disappointed with all its limitations. Eventually I just stopped using it.
The new nukes will be a big improvement.
Quote:
I remember when I first got Nova. I flew onto a rooftop in Bricks and let fly. Ok, it didn't kill them all, it crashed all my end, and it scattered them all over the place, and it'll be a couple minutes before it recharges.|
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony
My current stable of characters include a Energy/Elec Blaster and a Fire/Cold Corrupter.
I'm in raptures with these proposed nuke changes, and can't see any downside to them at all. I remember my first nuke. Circling Brickstown on my Elec/Elec Blaster thinking "this power must be awesome - its on a huge recharge and drains all my energy." Finding groups of ten yellow/orange Crey minions and zapping them, and quickly getting disappointed with all its limitations. Eventually I just stopped using it. The new nukes will be a big improvement. |
...
...
Time to find another rooftop.
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(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
I made a fire blaster just to one shot the even-level RedCaps at the end of Katie Hannon's second mission with Inferno after aim, build up, a few rages - Super speed and a stealth IO to get there.
Short story of it: Inferno with a lot of self buffing.
Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.