So how do blasters feel about nukes going from scale 6.0 dmg to scale 4.0?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-12 12:34 in Blasters
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Ok, I'll bite. HOW do Defenders and Corruptors benefit more? Blaster nukes do more raw damage and since the main methods Blasters have for increasing their damage are self buffs (Aim and Build Up) they can maximize it for use in an Alpha Strike whereas Defenders and Corruptors are more reliant on resistance debuffs to boost damage which means giving up the first strike.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
I'm glad they plan to make this change, it was long overdue.
Blasters benefit from this change, but yet again, defenders and corruptors benefit more. |
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Let's look at Inferno for a second.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
to be clear, you are not losing damage to make the nuke not crash
they are removing the chance of extra damage and making it flat damage so it is consistent they are reducing the recharge time so you can use it more frequently it is doing the damage it should for its new recharge time removing the crash is just a bonus |
You can, with a bit of insane effort, get the nuke down to a 90-91 second recharge.
You don't WANT to use it that often, currently, because of how it rapes your Endurance bar.
Now cut that recharge time in half AGAIN. And a little more besides.
With similar crazed effort you can have Inferno going off every 37 seconds or so.
And while it still will take a chunk off your endurance bar (which can be mitigated by endredux), you now have a nuke that can essentially kill everything up to LTs with Build Up and Aim firing off every 37 seconds.
This kind of thing is a MONSTROUS damage buff to blaster types.
Yes, your Monday Punch won't be quite so spectacular, but you can swing it more often and it's STILL pretty damn terrific.
Note: The downside? You'll likely be doing so much DoT to enemies that you DON'T kill that you'll trigger the "run away" code in the AI.
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Probably because the blasters have a good chunk of their damage whittled away by said resistances.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Ok, I'll bite. HOW do Defenders and Corruptors benefit more? Blaster nukes do more raw damage and since the main methods Blasters have for increasing their damage are self buffs (Aim and Build Up) they can maximize it for use in an Alpha Strike whereas Defenders and Corruptors are more reliant on resistance debuffs to boost damage which means giving up the first strike.
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Whereas Def/Corr characters can drop the debuffs, strip away the resists, and hit for closer to full damage.
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Resistance debuffs don't work that way though. A 30% resistance debuff will always result in you doing 30% more damage than you were doing before, regardless of the enemy's initial resistance. This is why tier nine-ing enemies that take only 5% damage from attacks only end up taking 9% damage after you debuff them.
Quick question isn't Blizzard the same for all 3 ATs? Making it a bit better on say a corr with scourge.
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Except that resistance debuffs don't work that way. Since resistance debuffs are resisted by the target's resistance a (for example) 30% resistance debuff will effectively increase your damage by 30% after you apply the target's resistance.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Probably because the blasters have a good chunk of their damage whittled away by said resistances.
Whereas Def/Corr characters can drop the debuffs, strip away the resists, and hit for closer to full damage. |
Example. Let's compare the following:
A Blaster with Enhancement Slotting (95%), Aim (62.5%) and Build Up (100%)
A Defender with Enhancement Slotting (95%), Aim (62.5%) and a 30% Resistance debuff.
Let's say that the target has 50% resistance. The defender will reduce that to 35% (50% - 30% + [50% * 30%]).
Ignoring the AT damage scales the final damage as a percentage of base damage will be:
Blaster: (100% + 95% + 62.5% + 100%) * (100% - 50%) = 178.75%
Defender: (100% + 95% + 62.5%) * (100% - 35%) = 167.375%
So the Blaster has higher base damage AND will deal a larger portion of that base damage.
EDIT: Scooped by Garent. Oh well, I have MATH!
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Currently yes but that doesn't mean it will remain that way. The devs are presumably planning to adjust the damage based on the new recharge anyway so they may well decide to change the Corruptor version of it to deal Corruptor level damage and create a new copy of it for Defenders so that they can scale the Blaster and Defender versions separately.
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Originally Posted by CyWolf
Quick question isn't Blizzard the same for all 3 ATs? Making it a bit better on say a corr with scourge.
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In short: I will more likely take the nuking abilities now that they no longer crash my endurance. 18% is a small price to pay for still being able to FUNCTION afterwards.
That being said, I do worry about the 3 second cast time. Not that I've calculated anything, but I feel like a lot of blasters could easily fit 2-3 AOE's within that time-frame and then just assault any remaining bosses with a single target rotation, which would still make the nuke mostly useless to me, or mostly a pre-IO build thing.
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It would be nice if they had no target cap and I could fx-effect kill my client while cackling like a maniac (ah, demon room memories).|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Indeed. That is what I mean when I said sometimes they use their judgement (I didn't mean to imply any negativity with the word arbitrary).
But thinking about, wouldn't it be nice if blaster nukes did, say, about 22.5% more damage than a full end bar would allow? As a bonus for blasters? That seems like a good thought for the special case that nukes are. Then they could just set the recharge to whatever is appropriate for that scale.   |
Probably not likely to happen, though. The target cap, not the cackling; that's still going to happen for other reasons.
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You forgot vigilance.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Except that resistance debuffs don't work that way. Since resistance debuffs are resisted by the target's resistance a (for example) 30% resistance debuff will effectively increase your damage by 30% after you apply the target's resistance.
Example. Let's compare the following: A Blaster with Enhancement Slotting (95%), Aim (62.5%) and Build Up (100%) A Defender with Enhancement Slotting (95%), Aim (62.5%) and a 30% Resistance debuff. Let's say that the target has 50% resistance. The defender will reduce that to 35% (50% - 30% + [50% * 30%]). Ignoring the AT damage scales the final damage as a percentage of base damage will be: Blaster: (100% + 95% + 62.5% + 100%) * (100% - 50%) = 178.75% Defender: (100% + 95% + 62.5%) * (100% - 35%) = 167.375% So the Blaster has higher base damage AND will deal a larger portion of that base damage. EDIT: Scooped by Garent. Oh well, I have MATH! |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It would be nice if they had no target cap and I could fx-effect kill my client while cackling like a maniac (ah, demon room memories).
Probably not likely to happen, though. The target cap, not the cackling; that's still going to happen for other reasons. |
But only sometimes...
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Seriously, THAT's your counter-argument? What would you have said if I'd used Corruptors instead of Defenders in there? Or why not point out that Defenders can take Soul Drain or Power Build Up? Or that Trick Arrow Defenders have a 40% resistance debuff? Or that not all Blasters have Build Up?|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
You forgot vigilance.
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You can find plenty of theoretical situations where a Defender or Corruptor will deal more damage as a percentage of their base damage than a Blaster but the point of the post you quoted was to show that resistance debuffs still result in a situation where Blasters deal about the same amount of damage as a percentage of their base damage as Corruptors and Defenders (with the actual winner depending on the situation). In any case my original point was that Blasters:
A) Deal more absolute damage (due to higher damage modifiers)
B) Can deal it with self buffs and therefore don't alert the enemy until they start nuking
So why don't you answer my original question, why do you believe that crashless nukes favor Defenders and Corruptors over Blasters?
Alrighty, I'm starting to get sarcastic, time for a break.
EDIT: In case anyone actually cares adding in Vigilance would increase the Defender's damage to 186.875% of their base Damage.
And here I was, wondering what I could drop on my Fire^3 to make room for bonfire, snipe, and aura. With a crashless nuke, I can safely drop consume, as that's all I ever used it for.
The Bacon Compels You.
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yep. faster recharge, no crash. sign me up
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Originally Posted by Demobot
I'm just fine with reduced damage if it means there's no crash.
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I find it hilarious lately when Blasters are complaining about what Corruptors and Defenders are getting when you know that half these people PLAY Defenders and Corruptors too..
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As I play corruptors, I will respond about changes to the blast sets. I will actually take and slot nukes now. That is all.
All this "it's better on a X" crap is bollocks. The changes are to blast sets, not the blaster AT.
I am all for consistency, so I like the change. If the damage scale vs recharge was the only change, I'd maybe be on the fence about it, but the fact that it comes with no crash makes it great in my opinion.
I've always had inferno on my blaster, but I very rarely used it. The new inferno will be like a second judgement, which I'm really looking forward to.
I am quite pleased with the changes. I might actually take the nukes now. As it was before I never took the crashing nukes. Sure some players could work them in, but I just didn't feel it was worth the effort. Recharge was too long, end crash too annoying, for ultimately too little benefit. Now they recharge acceptably fast, and still do good damage, with no end crash.
Happy happy joy joy.
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It's actually Sunday Punch - but I love your ideas about Inferno. I've never tried Fire blasting but this is motivating me.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yes, your Monday Punch won't be quite so spectacular, but you can swing it more often and it's STILL pretty damn terrific.
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Seems like Fire/Something it would be a good follow up to the Water/Time character I'm working on (nearly 32 now!).
You know, just to throw this out there - I had a whole mess of crepes this morning. They're just like pancakes, maybe even better.
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True, but using the actual Defender value of +50% damage from Aim reduces that back to 178.75%, dead even with the Blaster. Any Defiance at all would put the Blaster ahead again, even before considering the difference in base damage.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
EDIT: In case anyone actually cares adding in Vigilance would increase the Defender's damage to 186.875% of their base Damage.
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If we adjust for the difference in base damage (but still not counting Defiance), the Defender is doing 103% of Blaster base damage, while the Blaster is doing 178.75% of Blaster base damage, which is a gaping chasm of difference. And Defiance will only make that chasm wider.
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And you're BOTH forgetting that the bonus from Vigilance decreases on teams in proportion to team size, so you can knock that defender damage down a notch for every teammate they could have, right up to the point where it vanishes and becomes a complete non-factor. Blaster damage is NOT similarly altered.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
True, but using the actual Defender value of +50% damage from Aim reduces that back to 178.75%, dead even with the Blaster. Any Defiance at all would put the Blaster ahead again, even before considering the difference in base damage.
If we adjust for the difference in base damage (but still not counting Defiance), the Defender is doing 103% of Blaster base damage, while the Blaster is doing 178.75% of Blaster base damage, which is a gaping chasm of difference. And Defiance will only make that chasm wider. |
Not everybody solos, after all, so there is no reason whatsoever to automatically assume soloing values in a damage comparison when one AT's damage is altered based on team size.
It's like comparing a defender to a kheldian without taking into consideration that not only does vigilance lose damage based on more teammates, but that the kheldian inherents outright change statistics on the character based on not only size but composition.
Forget apples and oranges, this is cherries and kumquats.
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Does that mean they should go UP in damage? If the whole point of making all nukes crashless is too..balance them with non crashing..(thereby admitting the reason the do more damage is said crash)
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I like the change. The lower damage is more than made up for by the removal of the crash AND the much faster recharge. If they had kept the recharge longer (or even shortened it to just 4 minutes instead of 6), then I would be dismayed. The 2:25 and 3 minute recharges are such a massive improvement over 6 minutes, that I am thrilled they went in this direction, rather than maintaining the longer recharges with the higher damage.
Full Auto avergaes 2.9 (2.75 with a 10% chance for an additional 1) RoA is 3 ticks of 1.2 for 3.6 total (it is actually 1.35, but uses the pet scale, so I adjusted it to blaster scale for ease of reference) Overcharge is 3.5 HoB averages 3.3 Geyser is 3.5 |
Actually, my feelings can be summed up with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=hlrM7H_WW28
But thinking about, wouldn't it be nice if blaster nukes did, say, about 22.5% more damage than a full end bar would allow? As a bonus for blasters? That seems like a good thought for the special case that nukes are. Then they could just set the recharge to whatever is appropriate for that scale.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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