Why is your Tier 5 better than my Tier 9?
By
AshleyHudson,
Posted on: 2012-07-08 11:59 in Dominators
Mass Confusion has a longer range and will not aggro mobs. It is also a sphere centered on the target while Seeds of Confusion is a cone and will aggro any mobs that it doesn't effect.
Devs would post more if they could say "hi!" without people whining because they wanted them to say "hello".
-Nethergoat
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Seeds basically is better in just about every way that really matters.|
Originally Posted by Rowdy
I teamed with a Plant Dom the other day, and his Seeds of Confusion seemed to outperform my Mass Confusion consistently. From what I could tell, it was up every fight, had a pretty fast activation time and lasted quite a bit. It just seemed to outperform my T9 completely.
Is there something I should know about Plant's confuse? Having access to such a great power, as well as terrific holds and a pet seems a bit OP. Now, if Plant has been deemed the bees knees of dom/controllers than i'll chuck it up as a design oversight and leave it at that. But, just curious as to why it's sooo good? |
Mass Confuse's benefits are that it's non-agro and a Target AoE instead of a Cone.
Seed's benefits are that it comes WAY earlier in the set, has one fourth the recharge and higher accuracy.
The argument most often made is that Mind Control minus Mass Confuse is still a pretty decent set, where Plant Control without Seeds of Confusion is pretty terrible. Personally I don't agree that Mind's all that great. It may have multiple forms of AoE controls, but they're not particularly good forms of control (Sleep/Fear).
But even at that I think Seeds performs much better than it needed to for Plant Control to work, when relative to Mass Confusion. It should have had a 90s recharge and a duration of 22.35s (vs it's current 60s/29.8s). That would give it the same recharge as the AoE stun powers in other control sets, but still a longer duration and higher base accuracy.
The problem is that changing it now would cause people to scream bloody murder.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
I explained in another thread that the person who designed Seeds of Confusion was likely drunk when they created it. 
Not bringing Plant Control into line is a mark against this game for me. It's clearly out of alignment with the rest of the control powers in the game. Nerfs are simply a fact of life in a healthy game--this game's petrified avoidance of nerfs has hurt it more than any other balance decision made in the past 5 or so years, in my opinion.
Seeds of Confusion is simply stupid. There is no way to defend it, except to say that the power remains the way it has because of some people's entitlement issues and not because the power was designed in a rational way. While it has protected this one set from nerfs, its what keeps all new powersets and the Controller and Dominator ATs as a whole locked where they are.
Seeds of Confusion with rational values would still be among the best powers in the game. Seeds of Confusion as it is is a detractor from the game for me, a grim statement that no one treats Control sets with the same seriousness or level of consideration that Blast, Melee, or Armor sets receive.
Thanks for the replies all. I see that, albeit it small, it does have its cons. If Mass Confusion had a slightly faster recharge, it'd better fall into line with it, but whatever, there's no such thing as perfect. 
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
Also I believe Mass Confusion is only typed psionic while Seeds has a range defense vector on it. In other words, a person needs Psionic Defense in order to avoid the attack (As the same for the rest of Mind Control).
Why is Plant Control's T5 better than Gravity Control's tier... 1-9? (Obvious hyperbole)
Seeds is just the most powerful individual control power in the game, as mentioned above. However, Mass Confusion is also totally awesome. I actually like Mass Confusion a lot more, but I use it on a dom, where it can one-shot confuse the entire spawn, including bosses, with zero risk to me. Add the Contagious Confusion proc and it gets silly. The recharge is a tad long, but it would be broken if they lowered it, especially on characters with permadom levels of global recharge. Plus, as mentioned, Plant pretty much relies on the power of Seeds, while Mind's T9 is merely the capstone to a great set (at least for a dom).
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Hyperbole perhaps, but there lies a seed of truth within it. |
Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
Why is Plant Control's T5 better than Gravity Control's tier... 1-9? (Obvious hyperbole)
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@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Ow.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Hyperbole perhaps, but there lies a seed of truth within it.
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- Ashley
[Rocker Girl (Earth/Earth Dom); Sweet Venom (Plant/Time Ctrl)]
For some reason confusion powers tend to have longer base duration than other forms of control. Probably because of the 'loss xp' or some other weird reason. Add to that that Seeds is meant to be Plant's every spawn control and you have 'weeeee.'
Though I agree Seeds might be too much, I also agree that Plant w/o it is meh, whereas Mind w/o Mass Confusion still has plenty of reliable lockdown toys.
Mind has two 'Control Nukes' which makes reliable control when alternated, as opposed to other control sets.
SOC is a bit more powerful than other comparable control powers. Fire and Earth's Disorients are on a 90 second timer, while SOC is on a 60 second timer. The fact it is long duration and contributes to damage makes it even more powerful. Also, Confuse tends to pull mobs closer together, the better for AOE blasty goodness.
Balancing factors are that the duration often doesn't apply if the mobs die fast enough, and the Cone area of effect is inferior to a targeted Sphere. This is especially important in situations where you don't have clear line of sight to the entire group of baddies. Still, even with those factors, SOC is probably the most powerful AOE control in the game (outside of the new Bonfire)
That being said, Fire has the (tied for) best single-target hold in the game, as well as massive damage from Hot Feet. Bonfire, of course, is broken with the new kb2kd.
Earth has Earthquake and VG. 'Nuff said.
Plant's Carrion Creepers are great damage, but are light on control. Also, they are not perma-able without recharge set bonuses. Plant has nothing to back up SOC. If SOC were nerfed, they'd need something. More KD in Creepers, maybe.
The entire Plant powerset would need to be rebalanced if the devs nerfed SOC.
Also, there are more important balance issues to be addressed in the game right now. (Blasters, Gravity and Ice control, Elec ranged sets.)
Personally, I'd rather the devs spend resources elsewhere for awhile.
Tex, you are right that it is the best control power in the game. But the control of the overall powerset, even with overpowered SOC, is less than what Earth, Mind, maybe Elec, or the current version of Fire bring to the table.
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I see what you did there. |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Hyperbole perhaps, but there lies a seed of truth within it.
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| Personally I don't agree that Mind's all that great. It may have multiple forms of AoE controls, but they're not particularly good forms of control (Sleep/Fear). |
Comparing Mind Control solo and Plant Control is really like comparing Apples and Oranges, they are both good at what they do, and even better at doing it when the person driving knows what they are doing, but their means of getting the job done are completely different. Sure, seeds is up more often, o.k. Personally, I steer away from Confuses (yes, I have them. But they're layered on as a 'secondary' control to large mobs to ensure my/team safety). The thought of quickly confusing a mob and loosing XP because they're shooting each other in the face is just totally unappealing to me.
Tempest.
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See, that's the sort of playstyle difference that really makes the variation in sets available so valuable. I just LOVE confusing an entire spawn, and then cackling maniacally as they ruin one-another without my having to lift a finger or even suppress stealth. I don't think of it as losing exp, because I didn't really do anything to earn any exp, I just brought murderous anarchy upon unsuspecting mortals for the fun of it. If I care about exp or drops, I will often toss a fireball or Rain of Fire into the mix to speed things along.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Tempest
Personally, I steer away from Confuses (yes, I have them. But they're layered on as a 'secondary' control to large mobs to ensure my/team safety). The thought of quickly confusing a mob and loosing XP because they're shooting each other in the face is just totally unappealing to me.
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Of course, my mind/fire/fire dom is a demon, so I get a bit carried away at times.
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Do keep in mind that you only have to do a small portion of the overall damage to earn the vast majority of the XP that would have been awarded for defeating those foes.|
Originally Posted by Bright_Tempest
Personally, I steer away from Confuses (yes, I have them. But they're layered on as a 'secondary' control to large mobs to ensure my/team safety). The thought of quickly confusing a mob and loosing XP because they're shooting each other in the face is just totally unappealing to me.
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It is a per defeat XP loss, however the increased kill speed more than makes up for it, netting an increase in XP over time.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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All very true, I can't deny a bit of it. But I likz mah shiney XPeez. Seriously though, I do see where your coming from. While I was leveling my Mind/Psi, I seemed to end up solo quiet a bit, and that's where the tendency to gravitate to sleeps/fears came from. I could move at my own pace and not worry about how much damage I was doing and If I could reasonably output enough damage to get the 'majority' of the experience from a mob. Now, once I got the hang of the character I could completely mow down mobs without fear of seeing an overall drop in XP... the habit of gravitating toward layered control with confuse being the last 'layer' had already been formed, for better or worse. |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Do keep in mind that you only have to do a small portion of the overall damage to earn the vast majority of the XP that would have been awarded for defeating those foes.
It is a per defeat XP loss, however the increased kill speed more than makes up for it, netting an increase in XP over time. |
As The_Cheeseman said:
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| See, that's the sort of playstyle difference that really makes the variation in sets available so valuable. |
Tempest
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Did you by chance team with Spiked Tomato? Please, if that is the case, the way he plays all DOMs makes them all look very good.|
Originally Posted by Rowdy
I teamed with a Plant Dom the other day, and his Seeds of Confusion seemed to outperform my Mass Confusion consistently. From what I could tell, it was up every fight, had a pretty fast activation time and lasted quite a bit. It just seemed to outperform my T9 completely.
Is there something I should know about Plant's confuse? Having access to such a great power, as well as terrific holds and a pet seems a bit OP. Now, if Plant has been deemed the bees knees of dom/controllers than i'll chuck it up as a design oversight and leave it at that. But, just curious as to why it's sooo good? |
I have to agree with the comments made above, and I again invoke this fact -- NO ONE WAS CALLING FOR A NERF ON S O C BEFORE IOS CAME OUT.
IO's make Doms look way way better than they ever did.
SoC is the only reason to play plant. I have said and I will say it again, this is fact, Earth/ is the KING OF CONTROLS, not Plant.
Plant without SoC is not meh, it is as bad as Ice is, no wait, take SoC out of Plant and it will be a good secondary for controllers, like trick arrow or something like that. But take SoC out of plant and plant just does not come close to Earth, Dark, or Mind.
Dark is indeed up there now with Earth, IMO.
Seriously, Plant is a DMG set with SoC. The reason why Plant shines is the DMG and SoC.
The reason why Earth shines is the huge lockdown tools available that cover areas.
The reason Mind shines is the many tools to stop mobs cold in their tracks regardless of what they doing... still is the the only set that can solo LRSF for a Dom.... Maybe Dark/ can do it one day.
Dark, IMO, is already competing with Earth for the control aspect and has very decent dmg to boot. Not one specialty but very nice assortment of controls available.
Plant draws tons of aggro, and will draw aggro from places you are not even looking, if SoC is not up, or you miss, you better run.
Earth has many options to deal with it , Mind does too (and aggro free), Dark/ also has it.
If illusion ever comes to Doms, you can forget about this whole SoC discussion. Illusion on Doms will be UBER UBER UBER UBER. I am almost at the point of saying DO NOT give illusion to Doms. Phantom Army will take the cake and then some.
Again, NO ONE CRIED FOR A NERF TO SoC before IOs came out. STop crying for nerfs to SoC.
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
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It would probably be too difficult to code into the AI, but I would love for there to be special NPC dialog that gets triggered when mobs get confused, as the other NPCs in the spawn react to one of their own going gaga on them, and then attacking back as they get confused themselves, calling down dire predictions of their future if they survive their immediate retribution.
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Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
See, that's the sort of playstyle difference that really makes the variation in sets available so valuable. I just LOVE confusing an entire spawn, and then cackling maniacally as they ruin one-another without my having to lift a finger or even suppress stealth. I don't think of it as losing exp, because I didn't really do anything to earn any exp, I just brought murderous anarchy upon unsuspecting mortals for the fun of it. If I care about exp or drops, I will often toss a fireball or Rain of Fire into the mix to speed things along.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Pre-IO dominators are separated from current doms by some vast changes, mainly those found in the dominator revamp that rebalanced their damage away from the damage buff in Domination. An SO build now is going to perform much better than an SO build then for that single reason. Citing the pre-vamp days for balance concerns is, to me, some very dubious reasoning. (As an aside, in my own experience, I only ever played one dom to 50 when they were locked to redside. Now that they are available to heroes they have drawn much more of my attention.)|
Originally Posted by Commando
Did you by chance team with Spiked Tomato? Please, if that is the case, the way he plays all DOMs makes them all look very good.
I have to agree with the comments made above, and I again invoke this fact -- NO ONE WAS CALLING FOR A NERF ON S O C BEFORE IOS CAME OUT. [snip] Again, NO ONE CRIED FOR A NERF TO SoC before IOs came out. STop crying for nerfs to SoC. |
But if we assume a game where the revamp changes occurred and IOs have vanished, as you seem to think IOs are the source of Plant's higher performance, the balance tips even more in favor or a rebalancing of Seeds. As has been pointed out in several threads in which Seeds has been discussed, Seeds has a faster recharge, higher inherent accuracy, and a longer duration than other control options of the same tier, all of which favor it on SO performance it. Even if we prescribe those bonuses due to its cone shape, it has higher values in at least one area (more in some cases) than controls such as Siren Song and Fearsome Stare. If anything IOs only serve to shorten the gap between Seeds and other every spawn controls by compensating for those differences in accuracy, recharge, and duration.
We actually don't even have to go to the SO level to see Seeds outperform other powers. Against same level enemies on a Controller, Seeds can achieve perma-Confuse with just two Recharge DOs and two Confuses.
Here are Stalagmites, Flashfire, and Wormhole (x2 rech, x2 stun): 67s recharge, 20 second duration
Here is Heart of Darkness, which gets a bonus to duration for being PBAoE (x2 rech, x2 stun): 67s recharge, 25 second duration
Here is Synaptic Overload. Aggro free but with a chance to critically fail and not work at all, plus very slow activating versus Seeds (and on Dominators, cannot Dominate): 44 recharge, 37 second duration.
And here is Seeds (x2 rech, x2 confuse): 44 second recharge, 49 second duration
On DOs, Seeds' duration is actually longer than its recharge. And of course all of these powers except Seeds and Synaptic have an Accuracy penalty (more than justified for Synaptic).
Naturally I wouldn't support nerfing the set into the ground. I actually play the set. I would recommend making Seeds more sensible and then doing the same for the AoE hold for ALL Control sets (my specific recommendation is changing the recharge of all of them from 240 to 180). That would cushion some of the blow, provide a mechanism to make up for some of it, and provide more reliable lockdown for a few sets that lean heavily on the hold. Plant would probably still have perma confuse all of the time, a more reliable hold when they need it, but not have the ability to just toss Seeds and fight what amounts to the confused version of statues all the time.
Somehow Fire Control has existed since forever with Cinders + Flashfire, so I do not buy for a second that Plant would be devastated by a more reasonable SoC.
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Because, when IOs came out in i9, Dominators were the only AT with Plant Control not to mention Dominators were practically a different AT back then...they had lower ranged and melee damage mods, Domination didn't recharge so quickly, it wasn't as easy to build and things like mez protection, being usable while mezzed and the ability to perma it were things that were added features later.|
Originally Posted by Commando
I have to agree with the comments made above, and I again invoke this fact -- NO ONE WAS CALLING FOR A NERF ON S O C BEFORE IOS CAME OUT.
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All in all, Seeds of Confusion on old style doms, while a decent signature control power but only moderately above performance compared to the other sets the AT was released with.
The ability to use and abuse domination along with the proliferation of the set and the empowering of Doms helped highlight just how out of line SoC is.
It'd be kinda like if old 'only crit on slept or held foes out of hide' Stalkers got Titan Weapons. It probably wouldn't make any waves in its performance beyond the steep limits of the AT. With all the changes they have now? I'd say Titan Weapons on a Stalker would be *the most* effective melee character, bar none.
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Will this myth ever die?
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Originally Posted by Bright_Tempest
The thought of quickly confusing a mob and loosing XP because they're shooting each other in the face is just totally unappealing to me.
Tempest. |
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Spot on.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Because, when IOs came out in i9, Dominators were the only AT with Plant Control not to mention Dominators were practically a different AT back then...they had lower ranged and melee damage mods, Domination didn't recharge so quickly, it wasn't as easy to build and things like mez protection, being usable while mezzed and the ability to perma it were things that were added features later.
All in all, Seeds of Confusion on old style doms, while a decent signature control power but only moderately above performance compared to the other sets the AT was released with. The ability to use and abuse domination along with the proliferation of the set and the empowering of Doms helped highlight just how out of line SoC is. It'd be kinda like if old 'only crit on slept or held foes out of hide' Stalkers got Titan Weapons. It probably wouldn't make any waves in its performance beyond the steep limits of the AT. With all the changes they have now? I'd say Titan Weapons on a Stalker would be *the most* effective melee character, bar none. |
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Not spot on at all.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Because, when IOs came out in i9, Dominators were the only AT with Plant Control not to mention Dominators were practically a different AT back then...they had lower ranged and melee damage mods, Domination didn't recharge so quickly, it wasn't as easy to build and things like mez protection, being usable while mezzed and the ability to perma it were things that were added features later.
All in all, Seeds of Confusion on old style doms, while a decent signature control power but only moderately above performance compared to the other sets the AT was released with. The ability to use and abuse domination along with the proliferation of the set and the empowering of Doms helped highlight just how out of line SoC is. It'd be kinda like if old 'only crit on slept or held foes out of hide' Stalkers got Titan Weapons. It probably wouldn't make any waves in its performance beyond the steep limits of the AT. With all the changes they have now? I'd say Titan Weapons on a Stalker would be *the most* effective melee character, bar none. |
Here we go --
The reason why Dominators were buffed was because they were a very sub-par AT to play outside of IOs. Controllers were miles and miles ahead of Dominators outside of IOs.
With IOs, you saw an ever increasing number of players who played Dominators reaching for the golden Perma Dom.
It is the IOs who made a totally different AT. I and others have been making that point for a very long time. It is a fact.
No one, no one was asking for a Dominator nerf in ANY power, before IOs came out. When IOs came out, then came the cry for TK and holds to be nerfed in PvP, perma doms were a different AT outside of IOs... guess what? THEY STILL ARE A VERY DIFFERENT AT OUTSIDE OF IOs now.
First thing you should do if you want to nerf it, strip that toon of all his/her IOs. Go play it without IOs, and for that matter, from incarnates too.
Tater, you don't think IOs make THAT MUCH of a difference? Fine, strip your Domis of all their IOs. Now, go play them, and come write on the forums how UBER and cool your Domis are, any of them.
Same reason peeps had been crying that Brutes were too OP and this and that. Gee, all that crying came after IOs too.
Go strip an ss/fire brute of all those IOs... to say that will suck is an understatement.
You might be spot on, but just on the wrong "spot".
Repeat Offenders forever !
Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
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My post wasn't explaining why Doms were buffed, only that Seeds of Confusion on old style doms wasn't as obviously strong as on new style doms. IOs buffed everyone. Its effects on domination was only an outlier for solo perma-dom. Perma dom was possible before IOs. |
Originally Posted by Commando
Not spot on at all.
Here we go -- The reason why Dominators were buffed was because they were a very sub-par AT to play outside of IOs. |
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| It is the IOs who made a totally different AT. I and others have been making that point for a very long time. It is a fact. |
Now, Doms are powerful all the time. Their damage is high without circumstance and their control adequate to eliminate threats and aid a team greatly with a checkmate button when things get hairy.
Again, IOs buffed everyone and its effects on Doms was just that it gave the devs reason to eliminate the duality nature for equality. If IOs altered Doms, it wasn't because it buffed them more than anyone else but rather gave reason for shifting the theme of the AT from what it once was.
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No one, no one was asking for a Dominator nerf in ANY power, before IOs came out. When IOs came out, then came the cry for TK and holds to be nerfed in PvP, perma doms were a different AT outside of IOs... guess what? THEY STILL ARE A VERY DIFFERENT AT OUTSIDE OF IOs now. First thing you should do if you want to nerf it, strip that toon of all his/her IOs. Go play it without IOs, and for that matter, from incarnates too. Tater, you don't think IOs make THAT MUCH of a difference? Fine, strip your Domis of all their IOs. Now, go play them, and come write on the forums how UBER and cool your Domis are, any of them. |
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Same reason peeps had been crying that Brutes were too OP and this and that. Gee, all that crying came after IOs too. Go strip an ss/fire brute of all those IOs... to say that will suck is an understatement. You might be spot on, but just on the wrong "spot". |
IMO, I'm not requesting the devs nerf this or that, you won't see me PMing devs to get them to listen to my opinions to fix whatever the forums are complaining about. However, I *WILL* speak my mind about the game and I (and many many others) feel Seeds of Confusion, among other powers (Drain Psyche, Rage, etc) are out of line. I don't care *IF* you whine and complain about 'don't nerf me!!', if a power is obviously outside of the scope of balance, you're a two-faced liar if you think everyone should just whistle and pretend nothings wrong.
People like that make me sick. If you see someone is in need of help, is hurting or being cheated you don't just stand by and let it happen. You just. Don't.
Some powers should not be nerfed...some should. Instead of nerfing look at Mind...the entire set needs a little pick me up.
I teamed with a Plant Dom the other day, and his Seeds of Confusion seemed to outperform my Mass Confusion consistently. From what I could tell, it was up every fight, had a pretty fast activation time and lasted quite a bit. It just seemed to outperform my T9 completely.
Is there something I should know about Plant's confuse? Having access to such a great power, as well as terrific holds and a pet seems a bit OP. Now, if Plant has been deemed the bees knees of dom/controllers than i'll chuck it up as a design oversight and leave it at that.
But, just curious as to why it's sooo good?
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own