Was there going to be an announcement about power pools?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

You know I not really speaking up on a lot of issues but this is one I feel very highly about.

Devs who reading this please not nerf hasten it not changed since beta going to live when game start. It is crucial tool for many user and those who dislike it are entitled not to taking it. I always use hasten because I enjoy its quickness and in Incarnate Trials sometimes when heals are necessary if hasten is not there to be clicked certain catastrophes might happen. I ask for this power not to being touched. Thank you!


Soon�

 

Posted

No one is touching hasten

We don't know what the plans are for power pools but they hinted at customization for the graphics and adding 5th powers (to which, we don't know, possibly all remaining pools). That's all that's been said, there hasn't been so much as a hint about anything happening with hasten.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iannis View Post
Stealth made you harder to see...but Invis made you actually invisible. Taking Stealth seemed kind of a silly move to me since the only +Stealth that Stealth does stack with is the Stalker's Hide, I think (and that was exclusively for PvP reasons)...and the stealth IOs, I guess.
And Superspeed. I use Stealth + Superspeed on several characters; it's full invisibility, and the slowing effect of Stealth is actually useful when trying to move around in tight quarters with Superspeed on.


Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth

 

Posted

Sometime during my first couple of months in City of Heroes, I came to the realization that, creatively speaking, this isn't just a game about super heroes. It is also a game about super powers. Now, before you confuse me with Captain Obvious, I would like to remind you that some players, in practice, do not feel this way. They completely differentiate their heroes from their powers, almost as if one was made without any prior conceptual knowledge of the other.

I'm not talking about about players who seem to have pressed the random button in the costume creator. I'm talking about the natural dual pistols blaster standing next to you at Wentworth's who looks like he put a lot of effort into his character, who possesses no fire powers and whose bio says he's just a regular Joe--and yet...he's standing there with his hands on fire, completely nonchalant about it. That is nothing short of a complete creative separation of one's character from one's powers. And it's not good enough for me. So a couple of years ago, I respecified all of my characters to remove hasten, except for one who actually does have fiery fists. I waited too long for a game world like this to make such creative compromises.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoNeko View Post
Sorry, I was going to ignore this issue, but this yanked my chain hard enough that I had to speak out.

Hasten is THE single biggest crutch in this game. It is people who think it is "necessary" on EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER who just aren't very good at this game (or maybe just lazy). Hasten is NOT the legendary "I win" button many people think it is.

However, like powerleveling, it's been out of the bag for far too long now that people see it as "necessary" when nothing is further from the truth. In fact, I can't remember when I last took Hasten on a character. Learn to freaking play your characters instead of shackling them all with a clumsy mechanic and you won't need Hasten either. Srsly. If you feel you just can't play your characters without Hasten it's probably years overdue for the nerf bat. Devs just don't want to deal with the global whining that would take place. Look what happened when they tried to curb farming. Same thing. Favorite crutches that people just can't give up.
Only one of my characters lacks Hasten, and she got a ton of Recharge from IOs instead.

There is simply zero reason to play without Hasten, unless the yellow hands bother you. It's 70% global recharge. FREE. Sure, you need to take a power pool choice for it, but you're going to take a travel pool and perhaps Leadership or Fighting...then you can take Speed and get quick horizontal movement AND 70% recharge.

It's just ridiculous, it costs nothing but ugly aura around hands...yeah, you better bet I'm getting it on every one of my alts. That's not laziness, it's maximizing efficiency on my characters. It is exceedingly rare that any of my characters go without either Hasten or five Luck of the Gambler 7.5% Recharge. I like having as many of my powers up as possible at all times.
Downtime is death.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
Sometime during my first couple of months in City of Heroes, I came to the realization that, creatively speaking, this isn't just a game about super heroes. It is also a game about super powers. Now, before you confuse me with Captain Obvious, I would like to remind you that some players, in practice, do not feel this way. They completely differentiate their heroes from their powers, almost as if one was made without any prior conceptual knowledge of the other.

I'm not talking about about players who seem to have pressed the random button in the costume creator. I'm talking about the natural dual pistols blaster standing next to you at Wentworth's who looks like he put a lot of effort into his character, who possesses no fire powers and whose bio says he's just a regular Joe--and yet...he's standing there with his hands on fire, completely nonchalant about it. That is nothing short of a complete creative separation of one's character from one's powers. And it's not good enough for me. So a couple of years ago, I respecified all of my characters to remove hasten, except for one who actually does have fiery fists. I waited too long for a game world like this to make such creative compromises.
Do you also avoid the use of inspirations unless your character's head glows different colours as part of their concept?

I'm happy treating the Hasten glow as an in-game effect not visible in the character's world. I'd much prefer it not to be there, but its not a game breaker for me.
People who point it out in-character on the other hand can be really annoying


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
Do you also avoid the use of inspirations unless your character's head glows different colours as part of their concept?

I'm happy treating the Hasten glow as an in-game effect not visible in the character's world. I'd much prefer it not to be there, but its not a game breaker for me.
People who point it out in-character on the other hand can be really annoying
Not to start an argument over personal limits or preferences (I do not think my perspective invalidates yours, and I guarantee yours does not invalidate mine ), but the difference is that Hasten is an actual power, whereas inspirations, and other various effects sprinkled throughout the game, are not. Here's a good example of the point I'm making: there would be absolutely no difference between your stance with Hasten, and a hypothetical situation where I say, for one of any multitude of conceptual reasons, that "I'm not really an electrical blaster, please ignore my electrical blasts, that isn't visible in the character's world".


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
There is simply zero reason to play without Hasten, unless the yellow hands bother you.
Many of my characters can empty their blue bars efficiently enough without Hasten. Some of the ones that don't, would do so with Hasten active. Aside from those two reasons, it's a click buff, which is something I find generally unappealing.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
Do you also avoid the use of inspirations unless your character's head glows different colours as part of their concept?

I'm happy treating the Hasten glow as an in-game effect not visible in the character's world. I'd much prefer it not to be there, but its not a game breaker for me.
People who point it out in-character on the other hand can be really annoying
Potentially something you won't have to deal with in the future, if pool customization is indeed part of the 'pool party'.

As for Hasten, if I feel the character needs it, they take it. I don't often feel they -need- it. So far just my dominator and illusion controller have it. it's certainly nice to have, but I haven't felt it would be the difference between a bad character and a good character or even a good and a great. Perhaps I'm wrong, I've still got plenty of high level characters I have a lot of fun playing and generally don't have a lot of trouble pushing through content.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Many of my characters can empty their blue bars efficiently enough without Hasten. Some of the ones that don't, would do so with Hasten active. Aside from those two reasons, it's a click buff, which is something I find generally unappealing.
I never take hasten if I can't put it on auto and forget about it. /SR, /Shield, /Ninjitsu, or any perma-dom are types of characters where I know right off the bat that I won't take hasten. But that's the same reason I skip build up most of the time too. Powers like that tend to sit on my bar gathering dust because I forget to use them.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
Not to start an argument over personal limits or preferences (I do not think my perspective invalidates yours, and I guarantee yours does not invalidate mine ), but the difference is that Hasten is an actual power, whereas inspirations, and other various effects sprinkled throughout the game, are not. Here's a good example of the point I'm making: there would be absolutely no difference between your stance with Hasten, and a hypothetical situation where I say, for one of any multitude of conceptual reasons, that "I'm not really an electrical blaster, please ignore my electrical blasts, that isn't visible in the character's world".
I'm more than willing to believe that its not electricity, if your bio says so, but I'd have to draw the line if you said you weren't shooting a beam of something out of your hands. Like you say, we all choose for ourselves where to draw the line.

I'd dispute that Hasten being a power in the game sense (ie costs one power pick) makes it different from an inspiration. Its often not a power in the character's biography sense, ie it doesn't have to imply that the character has heightened reflexes or some kind of superspeed ability.

What's your stance on the Leadership pool? That's very much meant to be a power for the non-powered types I would imagine. If asked for a comic character who uses these Captain America comes to mind, and yet its quite visually intrusive with the red jagged shapes, purple shields and yellow crosshairs. In some ways its worse than Hasten because it spreads to your teammates.
(I did make a character with a telepathic barrier that manifested as purple shield symbols once, but that's another story. )


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
I'm more than willing to believe that its not electricity, if your bio says so, but I'd have to draw the line if you said you weren't shooting a beam of something out of your hands. Like you say, we all choose for ourselves where to draw the line.
You could be pulling Plasmatheric Energy out of your foes *into* your hands along free-floating counter-temporal ley lines.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
You could be pulling Plasmatheric Energy out of your foes *into* your hands along free-floating counter-temporal ley lines.
Or simply reversing their polarity.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
I'm more than willing to believe that its not electricity, if your bio says so, but I'd have to draw the line if you said you weren't shooting a beam of something out of your hands. Like you say, we all choose for ourselves where to draw the line.

I'd dispute that Hasten being a power in the game sense (ie costs one power pick) makes it different from an inspiration. Its often not a power in the character's biography sense, ie it doesn't have to imply that the character has heightened reflexes or some kind of superspeed ability.

What's your stance on the Leadership pool? That's very much meant to be a power for the non-powered types I would imagine. If asked for a comic character who uses these Captain America comes to mind, and yet its quite visually intrusive with the red jagged shapes, purple shields and yellow crosshairs. In some ways its worse than Hasten because it spreads to your teammates.
(I did make a character with a telepathic barrier that manifested as purple shield symbols once, but that's another story. )
More on this tomorrow because I'm about to log in and play for a few hours, but basically, here is the gist of of my play-style; and I'll call it a play-style instead of a complaint or design criticism or argument because it's not within me to build a serious argument around anything this subjective. You make an excellent point about Leadership, which a few of my characters possess; and for which I've made internal exceptions for, owing to the utilitarian effect of the powers beyond my own private benefit (allowing teammates to know that my Leadership abilities are toggled on).

But, well, flaming hands. About that. Powers, unlike inspirations (or "level up" animations or any number of other effects), are conceptually inseparable parts of my characters. Powers are exactly like costume parts to me. Exactly the same. I used electricity blast above as an absurd example in my case; in the same vein of thought, I wouldn't put armor on a tight spandex-clad hero, and then ask you to ignore the armor. ("It's really thick spandex!")

I'm not writing this to turn you around toward my view of such a non-priority matter. But this is how I came around to such a viewpoint (since you asked). Basically, I approach this game as a comic book nerd. I don't design characters with powers that make zero sense conceptually; and burning hands are probably one of the clearest examples of a very niche power in comic books, when compared to, say, super strength, fast (non-flaming) reflexes, or flight.

I own games via Steam and GOG and GamersGate that I go maximize my efficiency on. City of Heroes scratches a different itch. It's an interactive comic book. Sometimes it's challenging, sometimes I even tailor it to be more challenging, or go looking for especially challenging missions and task forces; but held beside other games I play it's comparatively very casual. Most of the awesomesauce for me is the game world and its stories, and the way my characters and friends fit into all of that. OF COURSE people who don't come from that angle aren't going to have any problem with randomly flaming hands. But for me, it's like, why go and do that to a character that I took all that time creating? It would be like if I finished off a neat comic book sketch by drawing a silly mustache on it. WHY???


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Posted

Hehe, Dr Harmony, just for the record, I avoid using inspirations other than greens and blues due to the visual effects, I do not use the Leadership Pool for the same reason and I also do not take Hasten unless it calls for it conceptually (visually and possibly power-concept-wise).

Just my preferences.

Frankly... I hate the visuals on inspirations and the Leadership Pools.
I started a thread about them and the suggestion to make them hidden per user option... and I was really surprised how many people felt the same way!
Especially for screenshots... how many great shots are ruined by purple shield sprites and such spinning around the character??

Bah... we hateses them... take them away!!


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

Posted

Fair enough, Cap, and thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view.

I play the game pretty much for the same reasons as you, and have often avoided taking mechanically sound powers because they look wrong.

Fire Swords, Ice and Earth Armor, and so on, are way too visually intrusive for me to take without a very good in character reason to do so.

I even skipped mez protection on my non-powered MA/SR stalker just to get that sense of real danger that she should have.

For Dr Harmony herself (think Firestorm from JLA), I did take Hasten. It allowed me to pursue both recharge and defence bonuses and achieve perma-Domination, all of which were quite important to my character concept. She's invulenrable, and this feeds back into her overconfident personality. The additional flashes of light around her hands weren't a deal breaker, and I'd hate to think that someone saw this as "nothing short of a complete creative separation of one's character from one's powers".

Roll on the day we get to choose what our powers look like more, and can turn off inspiration effects. Till then, lets not look down our noses at each other for where we each draw the line.


 

Posted

On my AR/Sonic Corruptor I don't always use hasten on the SO build, because the crash, and the end usage is too much. I only use Hasten when I need to use it.

Hasten I think is useful even with the crash, but those saying that Hasten is a must have may be looking at the point of view of it without the end crash.

Hasten with enough recharge to avoid the crash is good, but not the norm.

Now as for Stealth and Invisibility...

I would prefer Invisibility to become the combat stealth and stealth replaced with another power.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
I disagree with your "fact". There's some definite give and take when it comes to Hasten. Just having it does not guarantee your character will perform better. You have to weigh the pros and cons. What are giving up for Hasten? Are you losing a power pool with performance improving powers to get into the speed pool? Is there another power you could have taken instead that would give you better performance in certain area? Did you lose access to a useful utility that might not enhance kill speed but be very useful in a variety of situations (like say stealth... yes yes I know you can take supers peed and/or use an IO but it's still a valid consideration and stealth isn't the only power of that nature)

Not every build needs tons of recharge and stacking tons of it can sometimes be redundant. What if your attack chain is already solid without it? More recharge isn't going to make you activate any faster. What if your primary "cooldown" can't benefit from recharge (like willpower's tier 9)?

Is Hasten powerful? Yes it is. I can't argue that. I will however argue that anyone who doesn't take it will be a lower performing character because of it because I just don't believe that to be true. Hasten can be game changing for certain power set combos and mainly if you can stack enough recharge to make it perma but it's not always necessary.

My Dom for example has perma dom without having hasten because I stacked a ton of recharge. Another 70% won't really change anything meaningful for him at this point. Sure I could lose recharge for other things with Hasten but then I have to micromanage two powers when without hasten I just just leave domination on auto fire and never have to worry about it dropping.

Math can say many things depending on the numbers you input. When you omit certain numbers your results will of course vary. Can you put a numeric value on my "convenience" factor for not having to micromanage my clickies? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't impact my performance.

Can we get back to talking about the upcoming power pool news now instead of trying to rationalize nerfing Hasten?
Sure, I'll drop it, but please, please, as others have said before in the thread - admit that for nearly all primaries and secondaries (a 90% estimate seems conservative to me), Hasten is VERY beneficial.

In the simplest example I can think of, you could have a 'tight' attack chain, but with Hasten, you could probably drop the worst of the powers in that chain and increase your damage by using (n-1) attacks, for example. And fewer attacks, to me, means more space on my 1-0 keys for things I need more often. And having my powers up when Iwant them is better than having my powers up almost when I want them.

Also, what are you gving up for stacking all that recharge in your IOs? You think you can drop 70% worth of recharge IOs in exchange for, say defense... or damage... or running speed? As you say, it's a tradeoff.
But convenience is a personal choice, and if you're talking about performance, I don't think you have a leg to stand on arguing against Hasten.

There are, of course, exceptions. But in general, not choosing Hasten is a mistake, imo.


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Originally Posted by Zaloopa View Post
But that's the same reason I skip build up most of the time too. Powers like that tend to sit on my bar gathering dust because I forget to use them.
I used to be that way too. Then I got a mouse with a thumb button.

/bind button4 powexecname build up changed my game.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
Hasten with enough recharge to avoid the crash is good
There's no such thing. Hasten always crashes 2 minutes after it's activated, no matter how short its recharge is.

[Rage] is the only power that you can avoid the crash on by making it recharge fast enough, and that only offsets the -Defense, not the -Damage or Endurance Crashes.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Hasten is a very good power and sometimes a cornerstone of a build *if* that build is designed to run and utilize Hasten well. However, blind application of the power is not only not always beneficial, but often has a negative effect on your overall performance.

The most basic and obvious example is the mid-level melee combatant who has Hasten on Auto-Cast and blows through his attack chain so quickly that he's too winded to fight the next. Sure he go through 1 or 2 spawns very quickly, but the time he spends resting is going to give the other non-hasten melee time to catch up. Worse, Hasten catches you low on endurance, shuts down all your toggles, and gives the boss a nice opportunity to remind you what the hospital looks like.

That said, I'm definitely not promoting the idea that Hasten is always *bad* either, even if it's going to bottom out your endurance. For example, Controllers and similar AT's that have very powerful, long recast powers will greatly benefit from popping Hasten after their use to bring them back faster. A melee combatant in a desperate situation may prefer to pop Hasten and quickly down an opponent to running back from the hospital with a fresh tray of inspirations.

The point I'm trying to make is that Hasten is not a lightning bolt sticker that you put on the side of your toy car and that makes it go faster. It is not always better to have Hasten regardless of the situation. Hasten is a tool, like any other power in the game, and not using it responsibly is going to get you killed.

On the subject of DPS, which I only bring up because someone mentioned using Hasten to drop less powerful attacks, I just want to point out that there is a "flaw" in the way we think damage works in this game that is largely a result of our reducing damage to an average based around second long intervals. There is, in this game, a large amount of what I like to call "overkill" that occurs.

You see, when "you" first started playing "you" used to do this thing where you would start off with your most powerful attack, and then finish off the enemy with brawl or some other light attack. The logic behind this was simple; You didn't want to waste your heavy hitting attacks on an enemy with barely any HP left. It was endurance management, it was damage management, it was smart.

The problem is, we stop doing this at high levels when endurance stops being a problem. We'll just cycle through our attack chain as quickly as possible because we believe this is how we're going to achieve the most damage, and it really isn't. Attack Chains are somewhat inefficient for things without a great amount of hit-points such as arch-villians or giant monsters because the amount of damage that they deal is greatly excessive to the amount of damage your average boss requires to put down.

In an even MORE nit-picky and top-performance-oriented world we would do things like figure out how much HP the boss has, and then figure out what attacks are needed to take him down in the smallest amount of time possible.

For example, I once did some analysis between Corruptor and Defender in an attempt to figure out which one did more damage, and while the results where, for the most part, predictable with the Corruptor coming out on top, the damage difference during normal play is still not really significant. What was basically happening (and these arent' the numbers I was using, but I'm just trying to make a point real quick) is that you'd have a case where the Enemy has roughly 300 HP, your Corruptor does an average of 120 damage per attack, and your Defender does an average of 100 damage per attack. While the Corruptor does a total of 360 damage after using 3 attacks, the Defender is still killing the enemy in the same amount of time because you only NEEDED 300 damage to defeat the enemy. The only time where a Corruptor noticeably pulls ahead are during Arch-Villain fights where the extra damage they are doing is actually being used.

All of this said, It's not really a big, game-altering deal, and I think most people are content to throw bosses into the pool of "dies so quick I don't care about doing this efficiently." Still, I think it's useful to be aware of it when you're agonizing over squeezing out 10 more damage per second how much you are actually gaining for your efforts to do that.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
Roll on the day we get to choose what our powers look like more, and can turn off inspiration effects.
Bring it on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harmony View Post
Till then, lets not look down our noses at each other for where we each draw the line.
Agreed 100%

Hope my post didn't come off that way at all and I'm sure Cap was just speaking from his personal preferences and not looking down.
Still... now I see how his words could be taken that way.
Sharing his preferences (and maybe even going farther, heehee) I honestly didn't read it that way.
I love when good communication brings us all closer.

So, what were we all saying? Oh, yeah... Nerf Hasten and remove Defense from the game!! Right?


Haha... seriously though, I am eagerly awaiting any and all news for Power Pools. I've not gotten my hopes up that customization is coming soon... (Seems like 5th powers and possibly some new pools)... but it has to be coming... Especially after Posi said he can't talk about that now (assuming Posi was on his game there and knew what he was saying by saying that...).


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
Hogwash. Invisibility is the non-combat power. If Stealth weren't meant to be used in combat, it'd be completely redundant.
Stealth is meant for when you are trying to sneak but might get caught anyway. That's why it has the movement penalty and end cost. It allows you to fight back without having to detoggle first. But just because a power can be used in combat doesn't mean it's meant to be.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
Stealth is meant for when you are trying to sneak but might get caught anyway. That's why it has the movement penalty and end cost. It allows you to fight back without having to detoggle first. But just because a power can be used in combat doesn't mean it's meant to be.
Explain why Stealth was the only combat defensive pool power who's Defense bonus WASN'T gutted with the I5 Global Defense Nerf, if the devs never thought we'd be using it for mitigation (and felt that the end cost/movement penalty was enough to off set it's bonus).


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.