Was there going to be an announcement about power pools?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-06 14:17 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Yes, something tells me that losing up to +37.5% Rech from suddenly exceeding the Rule of Five on Huge Recharge bonuses would cause some huge and unsightly upheaval. So, I think it would likely end up being very bad for the game.
Simultaneously, I believe that it is far too easy to get insane recharge and defense in a build... stats that enable the trivialization of content in a way that set bonuses for Immobilization Resistance will never be capable of. As such, I think that is bad for the game as well.
It is obvious to me which the Devs see as worse. I stand by their decision... hence my "suggestion" (even though it will never happen and I am sorta glad from the aspect of player attrition).
Also, thanks Hopeling for understanding where I was coming from.
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Well... yeah, this is quite the tangent. But nerf herding is a ridiculous term, IMO.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
I was hoping this topic was going to continue discussing power pools... you know the actual topic of the OP... sadly it seems we've devolved into nerf herding...
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Seriously though, I am stoked about the potential things I see coming down the pike for Power Pools! Hopefully Wednesday brings us more news.
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Not that being "good at the game" has anything to do with getting a lot of influence, but if someone wasn't very good at the game then they would need the extra help of set bonuses more than someone who was good at the game.|
Originally Posted by RevolverMike
If you think 100 mil is a lot, well, you just arent very good at this game.
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Before I ever knew of IO cost I was of the opinion that there should be a hard cap on the bonuses they granted.
I've also long thought that the Fighting pool should be largely useless to Scrappers, Brutes, Stalkers, and especially Tankers... whilst being of slightly more use (than currently) to everyone else.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Also, using powers as "set mules" really bugs me on some level as well. There is just something about getting bonuses for a power you never use that seems highly illogical. But, I won't even posit a way to "fix" that.
I think these ideas I keep having belonged in Memphis Bill's thread about what you'd do as a Dev to get players to hate you.
Ha!
My brute that sits at 183.75% Global recharge doesnt like the idea of caps or LotG having to share its bonus with other sets. Thanks.
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A lot of people didn't like ED or the GDN, either. I didn't like when Regen got turned from a set I could happily allow to passively sit in the background into an annoying clickfest. And I imagine that people who abuse exploits for a long time aren't very happy when they get fixed (indeed, some of the outcries against AE fixes have been in that vein). Life goes on.
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
My brute that sits at 183.75% Global recharge doesnt like the idea of caps or LotG having to share its bonus with other sets. Thanks.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Yes, that is why most (all?) of us in this conversation seem to agree that such changes should not actually happen, or at least should not be made lightly: the backlash from players who like things as they have been for years would be enormous.|
Originally Posted by RevolverMike
My brute that sits at 183.75% Global recharge doesnt like the idea of caps or LotG having to share its bonus with other sets. Thanks.
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That doesn't mean the design decisions that led here were all good ones, though.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Yes, that is why most (all?) of us in this conversation seem to agree that such changes should not actually happen, or at least should not be made lightly: the backlash from players who like things as they have been for years would be enormous.
That doesn't mean the design decisions that led here were all good ones, though. |
We also shouldnt forget there is a recharge cap. its 400%. and my brute doesnt even get half of that.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
A lot of people didn't like ED or the GDN, either. I didn't like when Regen got turned from a set I could happily allow to passively sit in the background into an annoying clickfest. And I imagine that people who abuse exploits for a long time aren't very happy when they get fixed (indeed, some of the outcries against AE fixes have been in that vein). Life goes on.
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I'm not against fixing things that are bad. I just dont like the idea of AT's never being allowed to break free from their roles a bit and get some new abilities they normally dont have access to being in one or two of their sets. Also dont like the idea of the current game being messed with. I was once incredibly intimidated by the invention system but now have "mastered" it and even become obsessed with it. I'm completely ok with another proc for -res being introduced or other such procs. It allows any toon the ability to do those things. Doesnt psi melee have a confuse? thats outside of the box for a melee character and ok in my book.
Remember that the recharge cap, like the damage cap, includes slotting. So you're probably a little past half on most of your powers. This doesn't really weaken your point, but it's worth mentioning.
But yeah, "fixing" something as ubiquitous and that has been around as long as Inventions is, at best, a last resort (especially since players also expend huge amounts of effort/influence to obtain those IOs). If I had a time machine and could apply some hindsight to the design discussion back in '05 or whenever, that might be another matter.
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My bad. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Remember that the recharge cap, like the damage cap, includes slotting. So you're probably a little past half on most of your powers. This doesn't really weaken your point, but it's worth mentioning.
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You are very right.
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Sorry, I was going to ignore this issue, but this yanked my chain hard enough that I had to speak out.|
Originally Posted by RevolverMike
nerf IO's? nerf hasten? nerf luck of the gamblers?
What is wrong with you people? Its like you've all gone mad. wait, is this coming from people who cant afford the inf for a decent build? Cause these idea's are beyond ridiculous. IO's are amazingly cheap now. If you think 100 mil is a lot, well, you just arent very good at this game. |
Hasten is THE single biggest crutch in this game. It is people who think it is "necessary" on EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER who just aren't very good at this game (or maybe just lazy). Hasten is NOT the legendary "I win" button many people think it is.
However, like powerleveling, it's been out of the bag for far too long now that people see it as "necessary" when nothing is further from the truth. In fact, I can't remember when I last took Hasten on a character. Learn to freaking play your characters instead of shackling them all with a clumsy mechanic and you won't need Hasten either. Srsly. If you feel you just can't play your characters without Hasten it's probably years overdue for the nerf bat. Devs just don't want to deal with the global whining that would take place. Look what happened when they tried to curb farming. Same thing. Favorite crutches that people just can't give up.
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I think it *should* happen, but I don't think it *will* due to the aforementioned potential backlash. And I'm not crusading for it to happen. It's not currently removing any of the epidermis from my proboscis.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Yes, that is why most (all?) of us in this conversation seem to agree that such changes should not actually happen, or at least should not be made lightly: the backlash from players who like things as they have been for years would be enormous.
That doesn't mean the design decisions that led here were all good ones, though. |
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
I'm not against fixing things that are bad. I just dont like the idea of AT's never being allowed to break free from their roles a bit and get some new abilities they normally dont have access to being in one or two of their sets.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Most of those were implemented because players were earning rewards at exponentially greater rates than what was deemed acceptable by the developers. While IO set bonuses to give players a great deal of power, there are mechanical limitations (aggro caps and AoE target caps were both implemented at the same time as the GDN) that simply cannot be circumvented, and MARTy ensures that genuinely exploitative behavior gets red-flagged while simultaneously shutting off rewards for the exploiter. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
A lot of people didn't like ED or the GDN, either. I didn't like when Regen got turned from a set I could happily allow to passively sit in the background into an annoying clickfest. And I imagine that people who abuse exploits for a long time aren't very happy when they get fixed (indeed, some of the outcries against AE fixes have been in that vein). Life goes on.
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Yes, there are other measurements of player power besides xp/inf earning rate, but when it comes to balance considerations it seems to be the one metric the developers have paid the closest attention to.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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Ok.|
Originally Posted by NekoNeko
Sorry, I was going to ignore this issue, but this yanked my chain hard enough that I had to speak out.
Hasten is THE single biggest crutch in this game. It is people who think it is "necessary" on EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER who just aren't very good at this game (or maybe just lazy). Hasten is NOT the legendary "I win" button many people think it is. However, like powerleveling, it's been out of the bag for far too long now that people see it as "necessary" when nothing is further from the truth. In fact, I can't remember when I last took Hasten on a character. Learn to freaking play your characters instead of shackling them all with a clumsy mechanic and you won't need Hasten either. Srsly. If you feel you just can't play your characters without Hasten it's probably years overdue for the nerf bat. Devs just don't want to deal with the global whining that would take place. Look what happened when they tried to curb farming. Same thing. Favorite crutches that people just can't give up. |
But from a numerical standpoint can you honestly say that your characters would not be better with hasten?
The reason Hasten is so useful is because if increases the viability of everything. EVERYTHING. Heals are up faster, buffs are up more often, Domination can be made perma, your best damage powers are up faster.
Do you "need" hasten on every character? No. However by not taking it you are a lower performing character in comparison to some one that does. This is a mathematical fact.
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In a Twitch TV chat Arbiter Hawk said that Drain Psyche wouldn't be nerfed because it's been as it is for a long time and there's no point nerfing old powers at this point in the game's life. This would extend to Hasten, Weave, Seeds of Confusion, etc.
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I disagree with your "fact". There's some definite give and take when it comes to Hasten. Just having it does not guarantee your character will perform better. You have to weigh the pros and cons. What are giving up for Hasten? Are you losing a power pool with performance improving powers to get into the speed pool? Is there another power you could have taken instead that would give you better performance in certain area? Did you lose access to a useful utility that might not enhance kill speed but be very useful in a variety of situations (like say stealth... yes yes I know you can take supers peed and/or use an IO but it's still a valid consideration and stealth isn't the only power of that nature)|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Ok.
But from a numerical standpoint can you honestly say that your characters would not be better with hasten? The reason Hasten is so useful is because if increases the viability of everything. EVERYTHING. Heals are up faster, buffs are up more often, Domination can be made perma, your best damage powers are up faster. Do you "need" hasten on every character? No. However by not taking it you are a lower performing character in comparison to some one that does. This is a mathematical fact. |
Not every build needs tons of recharge and stacking tons of it can sometimes be redundant. What if your attack chain is already solid without it? More recharge isn't going to make you activate any faster. What if your primary "cooldown" can't benefit from recharge (like willpower's tier 9)?
Is Hasten powerful? Yes it is. I can't argue that. I will however argue that anyone who doesn't take it will be a lower performing character because of it because I just don't believe that to be true. Hasten can be game changing for certain power set combos and mainly if you can stack enough recharge to make it perma but it's not always necessary.
My Dom for example has perma dom without having hasten because I stacked a ton of recharge. Another 70% won't really change anything meaningful for him at this point. Sure I could lose recharge for other things with Hasten but then I have to micromanage two powers when without hasten I just just leave domination on auto fire and never have to worry about it dropping.
Math can say many things depending on the numbers you input. When you omit certain numbers your results will of course vary. Can you put a numeric value on my "convenience" factor for not having to micromanage my clickies? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't impact my performance.
Can we get back to talking about the upcoming power pool news now instead of trying to rationalize nerfing Hasten?
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
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Jack had a chance to have Geko nerf Hasten back in year 1 (heck, I think some people were saying they NEEDED to) when a lot of unpopular decisions were made (like nerfing /Regen every issue) but he didn't. Nerfing Hasten now would probably just result in a lot of people uninstalling CoX: Freedom because permahasten is built into so many builds. But it is a really stupidly powerful ability.|
Cottage rule is going to water down any changes. Some really need an overhaul: Stealth Presence I'd go so far as to say some powers need a nerf to hell and back: Hasten Weave |
Stealth's Invisibility would become immensely nice if it had a Quality of Life upgrade to make it an AoE. Stealth the power sure could ditch that old -runspeed component, and please equalize the power upkeep cost to Combat Jumping's level to make it a low-impact bit of bonus +DEF--emphasis on little, since I think half of the value Suppresses in combat. Phase Shift...errrrrr, heh, nerfed to uselessness due to exploitation in lolpvp. I could see Stealth getting a /Nin Smoke Flash type power to ditch enemy aggro.
But, yeah, Presence bites for anybody besides a Tankermind only taking it for some ghetto taunt. The two Fear powers are just super useless. Buff the Fear powers with some additional debuffs, at least. Maybe top it off with a 5th High Pain Tolerance type passive or something--you turned your overwhelming presence inward and actually tricked yourself into feeling less pain! (Fear is the mind-killer?)
I wonder if this new Sorcery power pool will be a free to all, or a purchased. It's the first new Power Pool in...like...ever.
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I'm going to bet Sorcery is going to be a purchased pool. I'd also wager we'll see other thematic pools as well for sale. Since pools are smaller sets of powers, I doubt we'll see those as freebies. When new issues come out so far we've gotten a full on power set as part of VIP but I could be wrong... maybe a future free set will in fact be a pool.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
Jack had a chance to have Geko nerf Hasten back in year 1 (heck, I think some people were saying they NEEDED to) when a lot of unpopular decisions were made (like nerfing /Regen every issue) but he didn't. Nerfing Hasten now would probably just result in a lot of people uninstalling CoX: Freedom because permahasten is built into so many builds. But it is a really stupidly powerful ability.
Stealth's Invisibility would become immensely nice if it had a Quality of Life upgrade to make it an AoE. Stealth the power sure could ditch that old -runspeed component, and please equalize the power upkeep cost to Combat Jumping's level to make it a low-impact bit of bonus +DEF--emphasis on little, since I think half of the value Suppresses in combat. Phase Shift...errrrrr, heh, nerfed to uselessness due to exploitation in lolpvp. I could see Stealth getting a /Nin Smoke Flash type power to ditch enemy aggro. But, yeah, Presence bites for anybody besides a Tankermind only taking it for some ghetto taunt. The two Fear powers are just super useless. Buff the Fear powers with some additional debuffs, at least. Maybe top it off with a 5th High Pain Tolerance type passive or something--you turned your overwhelming presence inward and actually tricked yourself into feeling less pain! (Fear is the mind-killer?) I wonder if this new Sorcery power pool will be a free to all, or a purchased. It's the first new Power Pool in...like...ever. |
Hopefully when they start talking about the upcoming pool changes we'll find out. I can only pray that somewhere in all the news they say pool customization is coming as well.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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I think it will be either free to all or store purchase only (and if I were a betting man I'd bet on free but maybe I'm optimistic). Having it be free to VIPs only opens up too many questions of how to handle characters with it if a player drops to Premium. Is the character locked until they purchase it? Do they just get a forced respec when they log into them? Do they keep the powers as long as they don't respec? Do the powers remain in the build but are greyed out unless they respec (as with Incarnate Powers)?
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
I'm going to bet Sorcery is going to be a purchased pool. I'd also wager we'll see other thematic pools as well for sale. Since pools are smaller sets of powers, I doubt we'll see those as freebies. When new issues come out so far we've gotten a full on power set as part of VIP but I could be wrong... maybe a future free set will in fact be a pool.
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When I drop to premium, my Time Manipulation characters are just plain ol' locked until I either re-up my VIP subscription or buy the set.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I think it will be either free to all or store purchase only (and if I were a betting man I'd bet on free but maybe I'm optimistic). Having it be free to VIPs only opens up too many questions of how to handle characters with it if a player drops to Premium. Is the character locked until they purchase it? Do they just get a forced respec when they log into them? Do they keep the powers as long as they don't respec? Do the powers remain in the build but are greyed out unless they respec (as with Incarnate Powers)?
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I guess it's possible they could decide purchased pools should work differently (and locking the entire character based on their pools does seem a little harsh), but I don't see any reason to assume it would unless we see something to suggest it.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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Well Power Pools are different. A Time Manipulation Character cannot be changed to a non-Time Manipulation character whereas a character with Sorcery (for example could be changed to a non-Sorcery character.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
When I drop to premium, my Time Manipulation characters are just plain ol' locked until I either re-up my VIP subscription or buy the set.
I guess it's possible they could decide purchased pools should work differently (and locking the entire character based on their pools does seem a little harsh), but I don't see any reason to assume it would unless we see something to suggest it. |
If they do make some power pools purchasable but free for VIPs then I really doubt that they'll fully lock the character until you buy it. If they do go that route then letting you keep the powers until you repsec (and possibly greying them out) would seem the logical option.
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Did he? The only comment I recall on DP from Hawk lately was that it would either be left alone/ignored in the Blaster Sustainability changes, or "nerfed" and included - but not both.|
Originally Posted by Snowzone
In a Twitch TV chat Arbiter Hawk said that Drain Psyche wouldn't be nerfed because it's been as it is for a long time and there's no point nerfing old powers at this point in the game's life. This would extend to Hasten, Weave, Seeds of Confusion, etc.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
The reason Hasten is so useful is because if increases the viability of everything.
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Difference there.
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Originally Posted by Iannis
Jack had a chance to have Geko nerf Hasten back in year 1 (heck, I think some people were saying they NEEDED to) when a lot of unpopular decisions were made (like nerfing /Regen every issue) but he didn't. Nerfing Hasten now would probably just result in a lot of people uninstalling CoX: Freedom because permahasten is built into so many builds. But it is a really stupidly powerful ability.
Stealth's Invisibility would become immensely nice if it had a Quality of Life upgrade to make it an AoE. Stealth the power sure could ditch that old -runspeed component, and please equalize the power upkeep cost to Combat Jumping's level to make it a low-impact bit of bonus +DEF--emphasis on little, since I think half of the value Suppresses in combat. Phase Shift...errrrrr, heh, nerfed to uselessness due to exploitation in lolpvp. I could see Stealth getting a /Nin Smoke Flash type power to ditch enemy aggro. |
The era you are talking about saw ED and was pre-IO - they thought it just fine (well, for then. It's always been a eye-on power, I think).
And Stealth isn't meant to be a combat power. That's part of why it's a high-end cost power.
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Yeah, but it was always just kinda sorta redundant. Stealth made you harder to see...but Invis made you actually invisible. Taking Stealth seemed kind of a silly move to me since the only +Stealth that Stealth does stack with is the Stalker's Hide, I think (and that was exclusively for PvP reasons)...and the stealth IOs, I guess.
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Hogwash. Invisibility is the non-combat power. If Stealth weren't meant to be used in combat, it'd be completely redundant.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
And Stealth isn't meant to be a combat power. That's part of why it's a high-end cost power.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I was hoping this topic was going to continue discussing power pools... you know the actual topic of the OP... sadly it seems we've devolved into nerf herding...
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30