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Originally Posted by MesmerLune
Ok, i think we can really bring back the fire/kin farmers. And i mean BEAST FARMERS. If someone has an amazing OP fire/kin farm build, please post it here. I made one but I'm not sure if it's done right. I'm able to farm 4 x 8 on battle maiden farm, but i want to be able to do it on red's smashing and lethal cave farm or something that provides as much XP.
Please guys, if you have a great build (with purples or not) go ahead and post it here. Also if you know of a good fire/kin farm map that gives as much xp as red's farm do, please post it here as well. One more thing, if you know how to get the most out of that new KB to KD proc please post here as well. Thanks all! ^_^ |
On a budget: 5 Posi Blasts and the Proc.
On a big budget: 5 Ragnarok and the Proc.
Wanna make the KB-KD STUPID: 5 Kinetic Crash (no Rech/End) and the Proc.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Was seriously considering doing this for the lulz. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Wanna make the KB-KD STUPID: 5 Kinetic Crash (no Rech/End) and the Proc.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Would that make it affect more KB-resistant foes, with the proc ensuring that they never go flying, correct?
My Fire/Rad/Pyre was decent before this proc but it feels like a whole new animal now. I dare say that it now rivals my Plant/Storm/Cold in terms of sheer power. It's an absolute game changer. Bonfire is perhaps the most indispenable(sp?) power in all of Fire Control now? I don't feel as though I'm prone to gushing about powers willy-nilly but I'm in love with this IO/Bonfire/Fire Control. Just...wow.
When there is no room left in Hell, the Dead shall walk the earth.
Yes, yes. Further proof this proc needs to be gutted.
>_>
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Has nothing to do with the proc or Bonfire. It's Bonfire + proc. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Yes, yes. Further proof this proc needs to be gutted.
>_> |
The proc is fine in Energy Blast.
Bonfire is fine with a Thunderstrike set.
Just because the combination is greater than the sum of its parts doesn't mean one of its parts needs to be nerfed. Any contention to the contrary is hysteria.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Well, of course. I more meant in specific to the power in question in this thread.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Has nothing to do with the proc or Bonfire. It's Bonfire + proc.
The proc is fine in Energy Blast. Bonfire is fine with a Thunderstrike set. Just because the combination is greater than the sum of its parts doesn't mean one of its parts needs to be nerfed. Any contention to the contrary is hysteria. |
An easy, and needed fix, until something else can be figured out is just removing the flag of accepting Universe Damage IO sets from Bonfire.
Easy, simple, people can quit literally breaking the game.
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I've been testing it for two days now with just the proc and honestly I've yet to seen one go flying off. it's always a steady knock down.
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Originally Posted by BViking
Would that make it affect more KB-resistant foes, with the proc ensuring that they never go flying, correct?
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I'm sorry Reppu but i loath when something good comes around and people automatically start complaining, and asking for it to be nerfed. By that notion then rage, seeds of confusion, burn, Hurricane, the whole dark affinity set (cause every power there seems to be amazing!), Lightning rod, Phantom army, Chrono shift, ALL the incarnates, and a bunch of "OMG that's awesome" powers should be nerfed.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Well, of course. I more meant in specific to the power in question in this thread.
An easy, and needed fix, until something else can be figured out is just removing the flag of accepting Universe Damage IO sets from Bonfire. Easy, simple, people can quit literally breaking the game. |
Can't we just enjoy a power without someone begging for it to go away?
I don't have an amazing, HAWT, Fire/Kin build. In fact, I think the last time I put one together was before Fitness was inherent. But I would desperately love to have a power called Bonefire. That sounds really cool.
I could see it as part of some sort of necromantic/hellfire themed set. Perhaps make it a control set and have flaming skeleton pets that do NE and Fire damage. Could be really neat.
Save Paragon one more time! http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ic,4877.0.html
Petition to end shutting down CoH:
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Very few (Read: One enemy type in one enemy group, which are phased out eventually) resist KB. Bonfire, with this proc, is the most powerful KB Power in the game. It is easily permable, it has an extremely short cooldown, and it entirely locks down almost every single enemy group in the game.|
Originally Posted by MesmerLune
I'm sorry Reppu but i loath when something good comes around and people automatically start complaining, and asking for it to be nerfed. By that notion then rage, seeds of confusion, burn, Hurricane, the whole dark affinity set (cause every power there seems to be amazing!), Lightning rod, Phantom army, Chrono shift, ALL the incarnates, and a bunch of "OMG that's awesome" powers should be nerfed.
Can't we just enjoy a power without someone begging for it to go away? |
Burn isn't remotely overpowered, I don't know why that was included.
Phantom Army is powerful, but it's not game-breakingly. Nor is it easily permable (Bonfire is off the bat.)
Chrono Shift isn't game-breakingly powerful. I don't know what this was included.
Rage is stupid.
Hurricane is considered fairly terrible sans in some indoor maps, and even then repel has an amusing way of working. Also the KB is chance to, not 100% constant.
Dark Affinity lost it's God Power in exchange for survivability. Fearsome Stare is stupidly powerful but Terrorize isn't the best CC mechanic.
Seeds of Confusion is stupid.
Lightning Rod is okay. It's good but it's not nearly as powerful as Seeds of Confusion or maybe Fearsome Stare.
Sorry. Just because there are a few freakishly powerful powers, does not mean an IO should turn a power into a power it was never designed to be, and thusly be the best power in the game of it's type (AKA: KD Lockdown).
PS: Bonfire was already changed once because it use to operate like this on Purple Patch enemies. I will be making sure it loses the accessibility of this IO. Sorry. And if it doesn't? Oh well. Fire breaks the game then.
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I have to agree with Reppu. As much fun as it is to combine Bonfire+Hotfeet+Oil Slick Arrow, it is pretty ridiculous. As good as some of those powers are, they are not a permanent, immediate lock down of nearly any spawn in the game. Honestly, this proc makes my Fire/TA controller BORING...
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Very few (Read: One enemy type in one enemy group, which are phased out eventually) resist KB. Bonfire, with this proc, is the most powerful KB Power in the game. It is easily permable, it has an extremely short cooldown, and it entirely locks down almost every single enemy group in the game.
Burn isn't remotely overpowered, I don't know why that was included. Phantom Army is powerful, but it's not game-breakingly. Nor is it easily permable (Bonfire is off the bat.) Chrono Shift isn't game-breakingly powerful. I don't know what this was included. Rage is stupid. Hurricane is considered fairly terrible sans in some indoor maps, and even then repel has an amusing way of working. Also the KB is chance to, not 100% constant. Dark Affinity lost it's God Power in exchange for survivability. Fearsome Stare is stupidly powerful but Terrorize isn't the best CC mechanic. Seeds of Confusion is stupid. Lightning Rod is okay. It's good but it's not nearly as powerful as Seeds of Confusion or maybe Fearsome Stare. Sorry. Just because there are a few freakishly powerful powers, does not mean an IO should turn a power into a power it was never designed to be, and thusly be the best power in the game of it's type (AKA: KD Lockdown). PS: Bonfire was already changed once because it use to operate like this on Purple Patch enemies. I will be making sure it loses the accessibility of this IO. Sorry. And if it doesn't? Oh well. Fire breaks the game then. |
An easy solution would be for bonfire to grant a delayed, short lived resistance to knock to any critter it knocks. In standard practice this would never be an issue, as it would have already sent the critter back out of the KB area before it could be reapplied, so it would not need to again. In the KD version, it could allow them to get up, and perhaps fire a shot back before being knocked down again. This would ostensibly make it on par with ice slick.
lol, 'Bone-fire'... would you like some penicillin to go with that?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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And punish other ATs who didn't get an IO that makes a power literally game-breaking?|
Originally Posted by Seldom
An easy solution would be for bonfire to grant a delayed, short lived resistance to knock to any critter it knocks. In standard practice this would never be an issue, as it would have already sent the critter back out of the KB area before it could be reapplied, so it would not need to again. In the KD version, it could allow them to get up, and perhaps fire a shot back before being knocked down again. This would ostensibly make it on par with ice slick.
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And better than Ice Slick due to superior cooldown?
The core problem is, even if you change that much of it, it's still superior to the main control power of another set, making ONE power out of Fire Control superior to all of Ice Control.
The only way I can see them changing it, aside from removing Universal Damage IO access to Bonfire, is to make it so Bonfire is instead a chance to initially KB, which means the chance to KD doesn't apply properly. Which... really is just making another bug to fix a broken power.
Really, I can't condone Bonfire becoming a "High" Damaging Control Power that beats out the major control power of another control set. It just needs to lose accessibility to this IO.
Or making it a 50% Chance to KD or KB an enemy, thus making it somewhat... chaotically reliable. Sigh. I don't know.
But what really needs to be done ASAP is to remove the IO accessibility until a superior fix can be applied. Bonfire is game-breaking right now.
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Not sure I see how this would be 'punishing' other sets. Let's say it gives after a second a .9 KB protection after knocking back a target for a couple seconds. In standard practice, that is given to a target knocked back by bonfire as they fly back and have to get up. (in fact, time the KB protection to the base knock period of standard bonfire) The low kb protection would mean knocked targets wouldn't be immune to other knock powers, but would enforce the knock suppression already present on enemies. (you can't endlessly ragdoll foes)|
Originally Posted by Reppu
And punish other ATs who didn't get an IO that makes a power literally game-breaking?
And better than Ice Slick due to superior cooldown? ..... |
The foes in standard bonfire are knocked away from it, so the knock protection would have little impact for the continuous nature, and using a lower scale magnitude of protection could safeguard against all but the 'overpowered' continuous nature of the KD version. Would it still be better than ice slick? I don't know, but so long as it allows some measure of retaliation without negatively impacting the non-IO bonfire, I really don't think that's the concern.
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Except, uh... no. That's not how that works. KB and KD are the same thing. You'd need to give it immunity to KB to give it immunity to KD. And then they'd be immune to any KB/KD in any other set for that, short, duration.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Not sure I see how this would be 'punishing' other sets. Let's say it gives after a second a .9 KB protection after knocking back a target for a couple seconds. In standard practice, that is given to a target knocked back by bonfire as they fly back and have to get up. (in fact, time the KB protection to the base knock period of standard bonfire) The low kb protection would mean knocked targets wouldn't be immune to other knock powers, but would enforce the knock suppression already present on enemies. (you can't endlessly ragdoll foes)
The foes in standard bonfire are knocked away from it, so the knock protection would have little impact for the continuous nature, and using a lower scale magnitude of protection could safeguard against all but the 'overpowered' continuous nature of the KD version. Would it still be better than ice slick? I don't know, but so long as it allows some measure of retaliation without negatively impacting the non-IO bonfire, I really don't think that's the concern. |
So, that idea can't work, since KD and KB are the same thing. They'd be knocked down, then immune to all other sources of KD/KB, then knocked back down again. Never once being knocked out of it.
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Er, not quite.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Except, uh... no. That's not how that works. KB and KD are the same thing. You'd need to give it immunity to KB to give it immunity to KD. And then they'd be immune to any KB/KD in any other set for that, short, duration.
So, that idea can't work, since KD and KB are the same thing. They'd be knocked down, then immune to all other sources of KD/KB, then knocked back down again. Never once being knocked out of it. |
Knockback is a control effect, with magnitude and all. If a character with .9 mag protection to being knocked back is hit with a 3.0 mag KB power, they will go flying. If they are hit with a .1 kb power, nothing will happen. Kb IS KD, but in different magnitides. KD is low mag KB, and can be protected against with low magnitudes of KB protection. (see: -KB kismet/steadfast protection Io's) KB will still happen whenever the magnitude of the knock supercedes the protection of the target. (See: my dark brute with a mag 4 -KB Io still getting knocked around by high KB foes)
The physics and the magnitudes are actually separate values, the physics happen after the magnitude is calculated. In this case it's quite easy to balance the Non-IO version vs. the Io version as they have very different magnitudes, the IO altering the mag. So giving a protection in line with the IO values would still allow the higher magnitude threshold to function properly.
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I don't exactly agree with this. It's not wrong to say that Bonfire is very, very strong now and probably is more effective than the devs would like. But 'game-breaking' seems a bit much to me.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Bonfire is game-breaking right now.
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There are Tanker/Brute/Scrapper combos that can do more damage in more safety than a character using Bonfire. My Fire/Shield Scrapper for instance is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in most ways to my Fire/Rad Controller with this proc. The proc narrowed the gap.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And yet this would needlessly punish ATs who are using sets like Titan Weapons, War Mace, Staff Fighting, and so on.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Er, not quite.
Knockback is a control effect, with magnitude and all. If a character with .9 mag protection to being knocked back is hit with a 3.0 mag KB power, they will go flying. If they are hit with a .1 kb power, nothing will happen. Kb IS KD, but in different magnitides. KD is low mag KB, and can be protected against with low magnitudes of KB protection. (see: -KB kismet/steadfast protection Io's) KB will still happen whenever the magnitude of the knock supercedes the protection of the target. (See: some knock power still being able to send tanks flying) The physics and the magnitudes are actually separate values, the physics happen after the magnitude is calculated. In this case it's quite easy to balance the Non-IO version vs. the Io version as they have very different magnitudes, the IO altering the mag. So giving a protection in line with the IO values would still allow the higher magnitude threshold to function properly. |
Your comment here?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't exactly agree with this. It's not wrong to say that Bonfire is very, very strong now and probably is more effective than the devs would like. But 'game-breaking' seems a bit much to me.
There are Tanker/Brute/Scrapper combos that can do more damage in more safety than a character using Bonfire. My Fire/Shield Scrapper for instance is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in most ways to my Fire/Rad Controller with this proc. The proc narrowed the gap. |
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If the KD protection alligns with the KD period it would have no effect. Ever hit an enemy whoe's been knocked down with a knock down power before they get up? They don't get knocked down if they are in the process of getting knocked already. In fact, a miss-timed KD will almost always have no effect, as the devs allow the enemy to get back up before they can be knocked down again. The only trick with the KD version is that it ticks so very fast compared to most KD that it will hit them before they can respond, something almost impossible to correctly time every time with click KD powers. In effect, this would align the same 'allowing the enemy to get up' period. Besides, the allies do knock need to knock down enemies already being knocked down by the power.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
And yet this would needlessly punish ATs who are using sets like Titan Weapons, War Mace, Staff Fighting, and so on.
Your comment here? ... |
If the concern is that the power should never step on the toes of any KD power in any situation, then you can still tune the protection to the IO. If I'm not mistaken the IO basically takes the power's current mag and takes it down to by -99%. This means it still has knocks, but incredibly low. so the distance they go is nill. (hence getting knocked down, not back) War mace's crowd control is .67 MAG KB, a knockdown effect. Bonfires' Mag 6.24 KB power, if reduced by 99% is left at .0624 Mag KB. giving bonfire a short-lived mag .1 protection would still add a KD suppression effect even while allowing other KD powers to function.
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Then how short is short? Should Bonfire still be equal to Ice Slick and Earthquake, ontop of dealing sizeable damage? The change you're proposing (It lacks timers) would at least make it equal to Ice Slick and Earthquake, which deal no damage.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
If the KD protection alligns with the KD period it would have no effect. Ever hit an enemy whoe's been knocked down with a knock down power before they get up? They don't get knocked down if they are in the process of getting knocked already. In fact, a miss-timed KD will almost always have no effect, as the devs allow the enemy to get back up before they can be knocked down again. The only trick with the KD version is that it ticks so very fast compared to most KD that it will hit them before they can respond, something almost impossible to correctly time every time with click KD powers. In effect, this would align the same 'allowing the enemy to get up' period. Besides, the allies do knock need to knock down enemies already being knocked down by the power.
If the concern is that the power should never step on the toes of any KD power in any situation, then you can still tune the protection to the IO. If I'm not mistaken the IO basically takes the power's current mag and takes it down to by -99%. This means it still has knocks, but incredibly low. so the distance they go is nill. (hence getting knocked down, not back) War mace's crowd control is .67 MAG KB, a knockdown effect. Bonfires' Mag 6.24 KB power, if reduced by 99% is left at .0624 Mag KB. giving bonfire a short-lived mag .1 protection would still add a KD suppression effect even while allowing other KD powers to function. |
This would require more coding for one specific power that was deemed too powerful to be doing this VERY effect in the first place, which it used to do. Either way, I absolutely want this proc cut out from beneath Bonfire until a solution is made.
PS: I do have two Fire Control characters. This is not me being green with envy. This is me being realistic that an already top-control set got even dumber, game-breakingly so.
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That's the beauty of it...the devs could decide/balance the effectiveness of bonfire as a KD patch independently of outside influences just by changing the duration of the KD resistance set to the correct mag. Two second duration after a one second delay? The enemy gets knocked down, but may get knocked down quickly after getting up again. Three seconds? they may have time to fire a shot, or run out. The duration would be tweakable depending on just how good a KD patch it needed to be.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Then how short is short? Should Bonfire still be equal to Ice Slick and Earthquake, ontop of dealing sizeable damage? The change you're proposing (It lacks timers) would at least make it equal to Ice Slick and Earthquake, which deal no damage.
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Of course, they could take the sledgehammer approach and insist bonfire MUST KNOCKBACK, removing the set as a possibility, they could...but that bypasses the purpose of the IO.
If going into the bonfire power to modify it so it disallows the IO is what you are looking foe, why should the devs not instead going into the bonfire power and give it the altered temporary minor KD protection? They then don't have to deal with complaints about builds changing and the IO not doing what it is meant to do. It also fixes the power for the builds that have it already. (Removing the ability to slot it doesn't stop it from working if slotted already) The players get a KD patch power that isn't overpowered, the devs don't have to handle as many complaints or requests.
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Geko, it's 100% mitigation, with no practical AoE cap.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't exactly agree with this. It's not wrong to say that Bonfire is very, very strong now and probably is more effective than the devs would like. But 'game-breaking' seems a bit much to me.
There are Tanker/Brute/Scrapper combos that can do more damage in more safety than a character using Bonfire. My Fire/Shield Scrapper for instance is still SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in most ways to my Fire/Rad Controller with this proc. The proc narrowed the gap. |
It's the definition of game breaking.
I don't want to see the KB return, but this power should be fixed immediately.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Ok, i think we can really bring back the fire/kin farmers. And i mean BEAST FARMERS. If someone has an amazing OP fire/kin farm build, please post it here. I made one but I'm not sure if it's done right. I'm able to farm 4 x 8 on battle maiden farm, but i want to be able to do it on red's smashing and lethal cave farm or something that provides as much XP.
Please guys, if you have a great build (with purples or not) go ahead and post it here. Also if you know of a good fire/kin farm map that gives as much xp as red's farm do, please post it here as well.
One more thing, if you know how to get the most out of that new KB to KD proc please post here as well.
Thanks all! ^_^