Knockback to Knockdown!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-30 18:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Explosive arrow doesn't actually deal fire or energy damage so it won't light OSA.
Speaking for myself I don't really have a problem with knockback in those the powers you mention. yes it's a bit random (which is annoying) but it's also relatively low mag and doesn't scatter enemies (the knockback is angled based on your position, not the targets so it isn't actually radial unless you run into melee range). I toyed with adding the enhancement to my Crab's Frag Grenade but I don't see it being worth the slot. |
You're right, its smash/lethal, but at least its worth taking now.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
A lot of non-KB powers can benefit with KD as well. For most of my blasters, I'll be more likely to put this in a non-KB cone or AoE than use it in a KB power. Or add it to Whirling Mace/Hands/Whatever for more mitigation for melee characters.
Global name: @k26dp
The best proc ever!
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Almost, if only it was earnable with merits, empys, astrals, AMs, not unique and could be slotted in non-damage powers.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The best proc ever!
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
All this proc has managed to do, for me anyway, is prove just how detrimental knockback actually is. If I didn't know any better, I'd say adding KB is used to nerf a power, which is why removing it, makes said power almost unskippable.
Had a Super Strength brute on my team the other night that slotted the proc in Handclap...good lord! And yes, we've all seen the absolute MONSTER Bonfire has become. Your opinions may vary of course.
Now I can't even bring myself to play Energy blaster anymore. 
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
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It won't work in Handclap, it only works in damage powers. Its something known by many for a long time.
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Originally Posted by Rowdy
All this proc has managed to do, for me anyway, is prove just how detrimental knockback actually is. If I didn't know any better, I'd say adding KB is used to nerf a power, which is why removing it, makes said power almost unskippable.
Had a Super Strength brute on my team the other night that slotted the proc in Handclap...good lord! And yes, we've all seen the absolute MONSTER Bonfire has become. Your opinions may vary of course. Now I can't even bring myself to play Energy blaster anymore. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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As far as bonfire... it's damage (IIRC) was made that high based on it KB's people out (To represent people RUNNING out of the fire)
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Originally Posted by Rowdy
All this proc has managed to do, for me anyway, is prove just how detrimental knockback actually is. If I didn't know any better, I'd say adding KB is used to nerf a power, which is why removing it, makes said power almost unskippable.
Had a Super Strength brute on my team the other night that slotted the proc in Handclap...good lord! And yes, we've all seen the absolute MONSTER Bonfire has become. Your opinions may vary of course. Now I can't even bring myself to play Energy blaster anymore. |
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Its actually alot less damage than burn.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
As far as bonfire... it's damage (IIRC) was made that high based on it KB's people out (To represent people RUNNING out of the fire)
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BUt it might be a little strong, IM not saying too strong, but its pretty hot... pun intended.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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The proc doesn't remove the KB, it turns it into KD. That's why some powers become overpowered. It's a key distinction.|
Originally Posted by Rowdy
which is why removing it, makes said power almost unskippable.
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If bonfire simply had it's KB removed, it'd become a fairly standard AoE damage power. It only becomes overpowered because of the KD, not because of the lack of KB.
Things aren't becoming more powerful because KB is a nerf to a power, but because, in the vast majorty of situations, KD is better than KB.
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I only mentioned bonfire because I saw it in action. Everyone knocked down for the duration of the power. And it's perma.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
As far as bonfire... it's damage (IIRC) was made that high based on it KB's people out (To represent people RUNNING out of the fire)
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I tried the proc in a damage aura just to see how it would perform. I removed it from mud pots as the immob makes KD impossible. Tried it in lightning field. It did nothing to 3 groups. Meh. It's a great KB -> KD converter, but the 20% chance for KD just didn't seem to work in damage auras unfortunately (small sample size, granted).
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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Sadly the IO is currently not working on that end. It's not making Regular power KD.
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Originally Posted by bpphantom
I only mentioned bonfire because I saw it in action. Everyone knocked down for the duration of the power. And it's perma.
I tried the proc in a damage aura just to see how it would perform. I removed it from mud pots as the immob makes KD impossible. Tried it in lightning field. It did nothing to 3 groups. Meh. It's a great KB -> KD converter, but the 20% chance for KD just didn't seem to work in damage auras unfortunately (small sample size, granted). |
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Originally Posted by bpphantom
I removed it from mud pots as the immob makes KD impossible.
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I didn't think that Mud Pots had a -KB effect to it?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
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Mud Pots has a mag 2 immob in it.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I didn't think that Mud Pots had a -KB effect to it?
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@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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I know but unless its tagged with (which its not):|
Originally Posted by bpphantom
Mud Pots has a mag 2 immob in it.
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+10000% Res(Knockback, Knockup) for 12s
-100 Knockback, Knockup for 12s
I don't believe it should be negatively impacting your chance to KB.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Yes. The confusion comes about because many immobilisation effects are tagged in this way. Which leads some people to think they all are.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I know but unless its tagged with (which its not):
+10000% Res(Knockback, Knockup) for 12s -100 Knockback, Knockup for 12s I don't believe it should be negatively impacting your chance to KB. |
Nother topic:
Are they any powers apart from Bonfire in which this proc becomes overpowered? Because it's just the one power, you could just do a little special case tinkering. For example make Bonfire ineligible for Universal Damage enhancements, or add Repel to the power.
I really should do something about this signature.
This is the best proc ever created in the history of the game.
Now to collect like 200 of them.
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Well once the IO works properly it will make Any PBAOE overpowered really...so nerfing Bonfire is just a start.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Yes. The confusion comes about because many immobilisation effects are tagged in this way. Which leads some people to think they all are.
Nother topic: Are they any powers apart from Bonfire in which this proc becomes overpowered? Because it's just the one power, you could just do a little special case tinkering. For example make Bonfire ineligible for Universal Damage enhancements, or add Repel to the power. |
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So, are you lying or are we just suppose to disregard your opinion on KB being a nerf?|
Originally Posted by Rowdy
All this proc has managed to do, for me anyway, is prove just how detrimental knockback actually is. If I didn't know any better, I'd say adding KB is used to nerf a power, which is why removing it, makes said power almost unskippable.
Had a Super Strength brute on my team the other night that slotted the proc in Handclap...good lord! .... |
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Originally Posted by Mazey
Things aren't becoming more powerful because KB is a nerf to a power, but because, in the vast majorty of situations, KD is better than KB. |
KD may be better for specific flavors of builds and certain player-driven tactics but weather one is better than the other is purely circumstantial. For any situation where you could say KB is worse than KD, I can easily flip the situation the other way.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Well once the IO works properly it will make Any PBAOE overpowered really...so nerfing Bonfire is just a start.
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There is no situation that I am aware of where PBAoE KB is more beneficial than PBAoE KD. Please enlighten me.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hasty conclusion.
KD may be better for specific flavors of builds and certain player-driven tactics but weather one is better than the other is purely circumstantial. For any situation where you could say KB is worse than KD, I can easily flip the situation the other way. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Way to fail to understand why there is an issue with Bonfire...|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Well once the IO works properly it will make Any PBAOE overpowered really...so nerfing Bonfire is just a start.
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The KB in Bonfire is intended to limit the amount of damage the power can do. So KB to KD significantly increases the effective damage of the power.
Simply adding a chance-of-knockdown proc to a generic pbaoe with no inherent KB is insignificant, and can already be achieved with certain powers.
I really should do something about this signature.
Bonfire is really no more overpowered than Seeds of Confusion. One stops enemies from attacking whilst making sure they take lots of damage and being up every mob, the other is Bonfire.
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Are there any other powers that have a 100% chance for KB? Are any of them spammable?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Are they any powers apart from Bonfire in which this proc becomes overpowered? Because it's just the one power, you could just do a little special case tinkering. For example make Bonfire ineligible for Universal Damage enhancements, or add Repel to the power.
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Debuffing foes you can't mez (take your pick of any mezzes or debuffs that are PBAoE usable by foes)|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
There is no situation that I am aware of where PBAoE KB is more beneficial than PBAoE KD. Please enlighten me.
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Getting foes off allies.
Exploding foes.
Repositioning (lol if you say you can't, I'd assume you don't know how to play Storm)
Getting foes off of you.
PBAoE rezzers.
Tactically used while repositioning yourself (can change KB to KD, disable flying targets (KD only twirls foes in the air, KB sends them down)
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
Bonfire is really no more overpowered than Seeds of Confusion. One stops enemies from attacking whilst making sure they take lots of damage and being up every mob, the other is Bonfire.
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Bonfire is pretty good, it's auto-hit (or so I'm told), 100% KB and does significant damage to the particular foes that resist KB. Most foes don't resist KB except for significantly strong targets. The question is, is Bonfire and its ilk overpowered vs those hard targets? Not IMO. All it does is some extra dmg and/or some debuffs and in other circumstances, is purely mitigative.
When this IO is introduced, however, it keeps the mitigative effects of the powers, enhances it and allows them to do what they do to AVs/GMs/KB resisters.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Are there any other powers that have a 100% chance for KB? Are any of them spammable?
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I have been in EVERY KB KD thread claiming how awesome bonfire is...I have been in BETA asking for players who were able to score the proc to test it but they did not...so I tested it as soon as it hit live.
I don't want the Power or the proc to be nerfed I think that Fire Control needs this because frankly even with this change it STILL underperforms compared to Plant.
Sorry for the Yelling but I just feel so strongly about Control and Ranged toons and I feel like the normal mentality of control and ranged players is a bit off. Balance is important yes but almost all the control and ranges sets are lacking...BIG TIME.
I just have given up trying to keep it as is because there are posters on here that are SO dead set on nerfing this IO that there seems no point of even arguing anymore.
Even there are melee sets that can control, kill and destroy 2 or 3 times faster than a Plant/Fire/Fire Dom.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8