Knockback to Knockdown!

Seeds of Confusion can last long enough and recharge fast enough that it can be pretty much perma, not that mobs last that long. It can miss but if it does then those enemies will die pretty soon afterwards anyway. Bonfire is all or nothing. If it's resisted then you're a sitting duck.

That's where I'm putting it. My Energy/Energy blaster duos with a tank and the general rule of thumb is if I knock it away from him I chase it down and kill it. I hover overhead to reduce knockback to knockdown already. This enhancement is going to be helpful for those times I just can't get a good angle for that.

PS: My little blaster has tanked the (old) Positron TF using Energy Torrent because the tank and 2 scrappers on the team were too chicken to do it without a 'healer'. KB can be a very useful and impressive tool used right.

TAoE (Ragnarok) and single target melee (Kinetic Combat); yes. PBAoE, I'm not so sure about?



AoEs: Umbral Torrent, Torrent, Tornado, Lightning Storm, Jolting Chain, Earthquake, Ice Slick, Wormhole, Gale, Gravitic Emanation, Lightning Clap, etc.

Those that don't have overlap can usually have their downtime reduced significantly enough to be spammable or have added effects to go along with the KB/KD...

Well A Plant user is screwed if you fight a mob with tactics...I cry and run for the hills if I see Nemesis :P.

I think the safest and most efficient set is actually Illusion...if PA is perma...yeah...the catch is perma PA isn't easy and Illusion bores many people to tears lol.

I would agree with that for Single Target KB. Not for PBAoE KB. It's very dangerous to use it in that instance unless you take some time to position (more on that later)

PBAoE KD is better for that. Critter stops hitting, your ally can hit back in range and melee.

PBAoE KD is better for that. Almost all exploding critters' explosion power (outside of encounters like the AVs in the Sutter TF) can be interrupted. PBAoE KD does that, then leaves them in range for AoEs, Melee attacks, etc.

This is not a situation where PBAoE KB is better than PBAoE KD. It's an illustration of why PBAoE KD is better. No need to re-position.

PBAoE KD does that better because it leave them better clumped for AoEs and in range of melee damage.

I guess PBAoE KB is better here, but only because it makes it that much harder to kill the rezzer in the first place!

Again, PBAoE KD keeps them in range of AoEs/melee damage making it better. Tried it both ways on my Peacebringer. It's not even a close call. It's safer, quicker and more effective to just twirl them then follow up with another AoE than scattering them to the winds.




In my experience PBAoE KB is never, ever, never more beneficial than PBAoE KD. PBAoE KB is much more visually impressive and it's certainly possible that a player might have more fun using it. But as a tactical decision, scattering critters is not a good idea. If you reposition yourself, you are wasting time better spent killing and the only effective way to position a PBAoE KB power so that it is not detrimental, is to make it into a cone attack as you position all the critters to one side of you. That's a skilled player dealing with the downsides of PBAoE KB, and not in any way evidence that the same power wouldn't be better as KD.

Slotting the IO we're discussing turns powers like Solar Flare, Hand Clap, and Bonfire into top tier powers where before they were seen as skippable or worse.

Those three powers in particular were designed by a dev team that had a very different conception of how the game would be played. They expected a much slower game and a game that more closely resembled comic book fights. That was in no way a bad conception. Just a flawed one. This game rewards you for killing efficiently. It need not be so, and I have begged them over the years to create encounters where that is not so. What I have seen instead is encounters where KB would be a great boon (for example the B.A.F. trial) the relevant foes are resistant to all knock effects. But even if they did (they haven't yet), the majority of the game would still be such that KB and especially PBAoE is a detriment.

Bonfire is really just a standard damage patch when it comes to most procs. They trigger at the start of the power and then every 10 seconds, like they would in Sleet or Rain of Fire. Damage and incarnate procs become more useful than they would normally be only because normal Bonfire throws targets out of its radius, preventing procs from firing, but Bonfire itself isn't a damage monster.

What makes it overpowered with knockdown is that the power's pulse rate matches the animation time for knockdown, and coincides with a period in the animation where the enemy is not able to respond but vulnerable to another knockdown.

[Note: A common question on other powers in the Bonfire family (Repel, Repulsion Field, Whirlwind, etc) is whether to slot the Knockback Chance for +Recharge there. The answer is almost always no. In toggle powers and patches, the proc fires every 10 seconds. Since the toggle is constantly knocking enemies out of its own radius, the only time it could fire is if it happened to pulse the exact moment an enemy entered range. Procs in Bonfire work basically the same way. Procs fire every 10 seconds, not every time the enemy is knocked back/down.]

I didn't think Bonfire would trigger the FF proc anyhow (for the caster) because its a summon power (or for itself - no recharge buffs for pets).


However, enhanced Bonfire seems to become a viable contributor to 100% chance (or close to it) Interfaces like Diamagnetic... easier to achieve AoE stacking.

I think that proc still only triggers every 10 seconds. It's autohit when it does, but not particularly rapid. Certainly better than the base Bonfire power, which would almost never trigger it if enemies keep getting thrown out of it (they'd have to happen to be inside it exactly at the 10 second trigger mark).

Bonfire is basically like Freezing Rain or Sleet in terms of how it does damage, although it does last quite a bit longer.

Actually, it's far more a matter of opinion.
You may be of the opinion that knockback is as useful as knockdown. but my opinion differs. I believe that knockback certainly has its uses but, the majority of the time, knockdown is far better.

You are free to disagree, but that doesn't make you more right than me, and you may find yourself annoying team-mates who agree more with me than with you.

KB is KB even if it's AoE (so long as it's not less than 100% chance). If a player can use an AoE attack on a single target when the situations deems so, the same can be said for various forms of control. Because I can use Gale to occupy a boss despite it being an AoE KB power.



You're making assumptions. 'Getting foes off an ally' is the premise which doesn't directly pertain to using melee or ranged attacks. The ally could be getting mezzed and/or slowed because he's up to his neck in enemies...









Unless you lock foes in place, the game AI provably shows you wrong. Foes move around, mezzes have different reactions on their placement and their pattern of movement is not always direct. If you're faced with a situation where the foes trigger their afraid AI, KD will only keep them in place so long...or if their AI deems they stay away, KD will not move them closer.

The only way to accomplish this is breaking LoS, teleporting them, taunting them (with -range) or tactical KB. KD won't do a damned thing if they aren't already huddled together and most of those choices (outside of taunt) is slower.



More assumptions. No one mentioned damage. If you're trying to stay alive and you're stuck between a rock and a crowd of angry punching mobs, KD will stop the foe momentarily but unless *you* move right after, it will be for naught. And with the prevalent of -movement debuffs, sometimes jumping/running isn't the greatest option.



Apparently PBAoE KB, in any context, is perma. It's always going. Everytime a melee foe is in range *BAM* PBAoE KB. Any time you're ready to use an AoE *BAM* PBAoE KB. Nope, it's not possible to choose when to use it because that time is perpetual.

I guess if PBAoE KB really truly makes killing everything 'much harder' then maybe you're confusing PBAoE KB with 'Perpetual' Based AoE KB.



The only annoying teammates I encounter are the haters that don't have the mad skillz of a proper player that can utilize their given tools properly.

And you're the one bringing in 'right' or 'wrong' opinions. I'm simply stating facts. KB is versatile. You can even change it into KD with but a simple change of position.

ZOMG! Tater Todd disagrees!!

Welp, I guess I'd better pack up and join the bandwagon then

You're worried about fire being outperformed by plant when sets like ice and grav control exist? :S

Granted I haven't actually gotten the proc yet on my fire troller, but i dont see it being as game breaking as many claim on a control AT. The only place I see an issue with the new knockdown bonfire is blasters and MMs having access to it, which clearly offers far more control than intended to non-control ATs.

Actually, it is an opinion. It may be backed up by facts, but what it's better at is opinion. Tornado is a more reliable and statistically better power with KD, but the KB is much more fun.

Fun is subjective, and an opinion, being more fun doesnt make a power better, it might work "better" for your characters' concept but it has no bearing on game balance. KD being better (in actual effectiveness on completing whatever content you are doing) is factual, it's not an opinion.

It's even funnier when people express their opinion on KB as irrevocable fact. It helps identify the players that know what they're doing from the players that are n00bs.

Fun fact, KB is not a 'one sized fits all' tool nor have I ever attributed it as such.

Conversely, attributing KB as a tool best never utilized aptly demonstrates your lack of knowledge and ability.

Lol.

My first toon was an energy/energy blaster, just fyi. KB is a great defensive mechanic, but that does not make it in any way remotely as good as knockdown is.

And again, Lol you.

Energy Blast is the kindergarden of knockback. If you'd have said FF/energy, that's somewhat different.

When did I do that?
As far as I can tell, I voiced my opinion and even clarified that that opinion wasn't always true, and you jumped down my throat for it.