Who is dead?

A big problem is that you continue to ignore one important difference between reality and fiction. In the real world, we can't really know what people are thinking, because in real life, we do not have magical mind-reading powers. We don't know people's true movies for doing anything. We can't ever really know if someone has turned over a new leaf or is only paying lip-service to the idea.

In fiction, however, thanks to things such as "omniscient third-person narrators" and "Word of God", we can know exactly whether these fictional characters truly regret what they've done, and whether they really want to try to make amends. (That's not even counting the fact that, in the world of CoH, magical mind-reading does actually exist)

So if the author tells us that a character in the author's story has undergone an "internal redemption, a change of heart, a sense of remorse", that's not "denial", that's the author telling us what's actually happening in that character's mind.

Using Dominatrix as an example of a Praetorian character who is now considered a "hero" is ridiculous. She simply makes sure that, every time we meet her, the choice is between going after her, or going after a bigger threat like Mot or Tyrant. She's not a hero, she's just a temporary ally in larger fights. (Just as Blue Steel and Lord Recluse team up for the final mission of the Mot arcs, but that doesn't make Lord Recluse a hero)

We, the players, have heard Dominatrix's thoughts (in her Personal Mission), and we know that she doesn't regret anything she's done, not even killing her own mother. She's a villain. We've heard Cole's thoughts, and know that he also thinks that brainwashing, enslaving, and slaughtering people was the right way to go about things, right up until the end, and he regrets nothing. He's a villain.

The only names suggested who have a chance at any sort of redemption have been Keyes and White, for reasons already stated. (And "a chance" doesn't mean "a certainty", it just means "a chance"). Cole and Duncan are not on that list.

I have to assume that Venture is the only one taking the conversation seriously. I can’t honestly believe that there are people who believe beings that are directly responsible for the murder, kidnapping and torture of hundreds to thousands of people or at the very least have supported the same are redeemable.

The fact that Magneto has tried to kill the X-Men on numerous occasions not to mention all the innocents he’s either killed or put in danger and is now redeemed is poor writing. You can add Angel and Spike to that list too.

I could see Tyrant being useful as a source of info for better understanding the Well - or he might even be able to help us lern something about the mind of the Hamidon that would give us a chance of taking it down.

In a "lock him in a cell in a remote corner of the Negative Zone, five billions years in the future" way, yeah, I could see maybe keeping him alive as a very-carefully-guarded source of information. That's not exactly "redemption", though.

An alternative could be that he was actually able to destroy the Hamidon when he first fought it, but it would have required his death to - like it could only be destroyed by the death of an Íncanrate, and that he'd backed out of the idea and struck a deal with it instead - but now he could decide to sacrifice himself to destroy it, and finally do something heroic at the end of his life.
And as he'd be much weaker now after his defeat, he'd need us to escort him to the Hamidon and keep it distracted while he made his sacrifice.

Frankly, if Keyes is alive and he has any brains, then he'd jump the first portal he could get to a world where nobody knew him, and he'd keep jumping until he got far enough distant in time-space that it wasn't worth chasing him any more.

Let's face it, the whole Going Rogue storyline depends on insanity. You're Emperor Cole and you have this machine fall into your hands that reveals the existence of alternate realities and the ability to travel between them. You surreptiously investigate the source of this machine and discover a world that is not under a single government, that has its own Hamidon but that has managed to contain it.

You could ask for help from your analog in this world, make deal with him and the government(s) that he represents, and work to find a pastoral reality that you could relocate your people to, leaving your current hellhole of a world to the Hamidon.

If you don't trust your analog, you can steal the technology and reality catalog from Portal Corp and do the same sort of relocation on your own.

You could also invade that other reality and attempt to subdue it despite the fact that it has billions of people and the "invaders" were not really representatives of any government in that reality and there are hundreds or even thousands of meta-humans there to defend it, just because the people there are not under your thumb and that just ain't right.

The people running the show in Praetoria make the insane choices over and over, and some like Tilman are not just borderline but are out and out loonies.

There's no room here for redemption unless you come up with some problem that nobody in the multiverse can solve except for the person being redeemed, and that dealing with that problem either causes them to change their ways or expresses the sincerity of their change of heart or it just lets them at least demonstrate that they've changed allegiance and gained a modicum of sanity in the process.

Frankly, I just don't see it and I would look poorly on an attempt to shoehorn the Praetorians into the "main story" in that fashion.

Do I think they could be redeemed? My faith depends on the notion that ANYONE can be redeemed if they choose to be.

BUT...

My faith also teaches that redemption of one's soul is NOT the same thing as temporal forgiveness.

If they are truly redeemed in their hearts then they would be willing to stand trial and accept the just punishment decided by the court (up to and including a death sentence for their crimes). Anything less and they're not REALLY repentant or redeemed, they're just looking for a way to get out of their just punishment.

So yes, if Keyes or the former Praetorian Emperor were to stand trial, not be sentenced to death, and served out his sentence, he could THEN become a hero... though given the likely length of such a sentence, their release date probably wouldn't be until some time AFTER the heat death of the universe.

"On the contrary, sir, I think this project is very important. It is you I take lightly."

And continuing the topic, such as it is:

"'Once ze rockets are up, who cares vere zey come down?
Zat's not my department,' says Wernher von Braun."

Talking about the "threshold of morality," what is it in the "needs of the many" scenario? One for one million? Does that number exist?

Was Superman held culpable for the destruction of Coast City, even though he's saved the entire WORLD's population hundreds of times?

And then, of course, you have the Stanford incident as well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.