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No, that's Flow Lightning.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, he was extremely good at it - that's what made him the most dangeous AV we've met so far.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Well he meant actually ruling people. The act of taking over the world, yeah, he was good at that, though to be fair, he kind of had help.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, he was extremely good at it - that's what made him the most dangeous AV we've met so far.
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And while some might argue he did rule competently, I kind of say you lose enormous points in "competency" as a ruler when you're dependent on thought police, secret police, drugged water to placate citizens, etc. etc.
But he at least supported decent sanitation unlike the Recluse.
But on that note, Paragon and the Isles are MUCH bigger than Praetoria, so it could be argued Cole just had a lot less to clean up.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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That doesn't make him incompetent - it makes him immoral.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
And while some might argue he did rule competently, I kind of say you lose enormous points in "competency" as a ruler when you're dependent on thought police, secret police, drugged water to placate citizens, etc. etc.
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For example, apart from when story requirements came first, the Empire in Star Wars was portrayed as pretty competent - but it was also totally immoral.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Exactly. Vast and corrupt regimes (in fiction and also in real life, unfortunately) can be overwhelmingly competent, which is how they are able to do so much damage before their inevitable defeat. If it weren't for Nazi-Germany, I'm going to go out on a very short limb here and say that we would not have had an Empire in Star Wars or a Fifth Column in City of Heroes. Science fiction often does a worthwhile service in helping us to come to grips with how such an insanely large and evil organization could have come to pass, but it also helps us to imagine other forms of tyrannical corruption that might not be inherently evil, but end up at a similar result anyway through unchecked systemic problems. I've always believed Cole's empire borrows significantly from Philip K. Dick's dystopian futures. Praetoria is in its own way just as chilling, because such an empire could have come to pass slowly and for individually and socially acceptable reasons, as the populace willfully traded individual liberties away (their freedom) in return for increased safety.
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Is there anything in the canon that states the circumstances in which this happened, however? It's never been fleshed out, to my knowledge. Richter's death in the Goatee Universe could easily be written to not be a cold blooded act. |
Originally Posted by Venture
Nooooooo, he started by murdering his best friend to gain power. He was rotten to the core from Step One. He was as much a "hero" as, say, Byrne-era Lex Luthor.
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The POD for the Primal and Praetorian worlds might have been Richter attempting to kill Cole for the power prior to drinking from the Well (or perhaps just after), and Cole killing him in self defence. That would neatly explain his later, more suspicious outlook on the world, for instance.
- Captain_Aegis aka @Captain Valiant EU
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And Chimera? The man teleports off after every other time you fight him, saying he did that one last time would certainly be in the realm of possibilities. Then, hey, the Dream Doctor was willing to have someone as vile as Protean work for him, Chimera isn't that much further of a leap. Plus, with Protean bailing on the Doctor, he is missing a master spy/infiltrator. Just make sure Chimera is given leeway to control every single aspect of his job. If you do (apparently) you can win his steadfast loyalty.
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
But for the rest, there could be some fun. Here's what I'd do if I was asked to write it
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Chimera could be put under the command of Belladonna.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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A surprisingly good point and distinction made there. Randomly, if Sith were only more trusting... or clever enough, they probably could have made a butt load of Siths and then turned them into something like the Seer Network. Then again, it seemed Vader and the Emperor really were all that were needed.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That doesn't make him incompetent - it makes him immoral.
For example, apart from when story requirements came first, the Empire in Star Wars was portrayed as pretty competent - but it was also totally immoral. |
Also, on the note of putting Chimera under Belladdona, that's just being mean. Besides, you know Bella's first order to him would be "kill yourself." right?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Generations of philosophical arguments would suggest your conclusion is not foregone.
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Originally Posted by Venture
But none of them are ever going to get the blood off their hands, either. Morality is not fungible.
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Depends. Will they help us beat the Russians to the moon? |
Originally Posted by Venture
Not all of them deserve life in prison but none of them should ever be put in a position of authority or be made responsible for the safety of others. Not everyone convicted by the Nuremberg trials was sentenced to death but would you have let any of them have their old jobs back after their time was up?
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My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Actually, I would defy you to find a philosopher who a) argues that morality is fungible and b) is taken seriously. I can't think of even one.| Generations of philosophical arguments would suggest your conclusion is not foregone. |
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| Depends. Will they help us beat the Russians to the moon? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I think the point is that they wouldn't even be charged if they were useful - a convenient cover story about them not really knowing what was going on, or that they were working under duress, would suit everyone involved.|
Originally Posted by Venture
To the best of my knowledge, no one convicted of war crimes was given a free pass because of the potential value of their scientific or technical knowledge. Certainly no one convicted at Nuremberg was.
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For example, a rocket scientist working on weapons to cause mass destrution to cities and other civilains areas, and relying on slave labor for his project could be portrayed as unaware of what his work was going to be used for, or that he and his family had been threatened with death if they'd refused to serve the state - that'd allow him to be portrayed as a "victim" being "rescued" - the winnign side would get a useful rocket scientist, and the rocket scientist would avoid any of those annoying war crimes charges.
Something similar could be done with Anti-matter, if some governments on Primal Earth thought that he could be useful - even though he came up with the plan to use the sonic fences to wipe out everything in First Ward, and constructed and maintained the reactors that powered the loyalist war machine and invaison portals - his status as an ex-Praetor could be played up, presenting him as someone out of the loop and not really aware of the full horror of the loyalist dictatorship he was serving.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Indeed. Cole killed Richter, but it may have been self defence, not murder. After all, we know how Richter turned out on Primal Earth. If his best friend's dark side had manifested slightly earlier, it could have sent Cole himself down a more ruthless, bitter and cynical path.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Aegis
Is there anything in the canon that states the circumstances in which this happened, however? It's never been fleshed out, to my knowledge. Richter's death in the Goatee Universe could easily be written to not be a cold blooded act.
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Praetoria is not a mirror universe, where everyone evil is good, and everyone good is evil. It is a divergent timeline, where different decisions made over someone's lifetime can cause them to end up in a very different place.
I really should do something about this signature.
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"Convicted" being not the same as "guilty".|
Originally Posted by Venture
To the best of my knowledge, no one convicted of war crimes was given a free pass because of the potential value of their scientific or technical knowledge. Certainly no one convicted at Nuremberg was.
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They just made sure that certain people where never put on trial...
I really should do something about this signature.
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No one would buy a story like that for any of the Praetors. It would be as if Himmler or Goering got the deals they wanted at the end of WWII.| I think the point is that they wouldn't even be charged if they were useful - a convenient cover story about them not really knowing what was going on, or that they were working under duress, would suit everyone involved. |
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| For example, a rocket scientist working on weapons to cause mass destrution |
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| Something similar could be done with Anti-matter, if some governments on Primal Earth thought that he could be useful - even though he came up with the plan to use the sonic fences to wipe out everything in First Ward, and constructed and maintained the reactors that powered the loyalist war machine and invaison portals - his status as an ex-Praetor could be played up, presenting him as someone out of the loop and not really aware of the full horror of the loyalist dictatorship he was serving. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
... and, again, you're comparing these fictional supervillains to Nazis and other real-world situations rather than to other fictional supervillains.
I point again to Magneto, who was a terrorist, a murderer, and a convicted criminal... and who is now a hero, leading a team of superheroes.
In-game, I point to Frostfire, who is a murderer and a convicted criminal, but who becomes a hero by the time of the 40-50 arcs, and who in the game's future becomes an Incarnate hero of Statesman's stature.
So it doesn't matter what happened in WW2, because this game is not a WW2 simulation. It's a superhero story. And in superhero stories, even the most villainous characters can change sides.
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Because, as I've said before, repeating a mistake doesn't magically make it not a mistake.| ... and, again, you're comparing these fictional supervillains to Nazis and other real-world situations rather than to other fictional supervillains. |
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| I point again to Magneto, who was a terrorist, a murderer, and a convicted criminal... and who is now a hero, leading a team of superheroes. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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But that's the point I'm making. If the above is true and Matt has more or less made it official policy that the above is true, then what's the harm in just giving us the whole backstory instead of hoarding it like a chest of pirate treasure? Why do we have to guess the answers to basic questions like "Who actually founded Freedom Corp. and what was its original mission?" or even "Who currently runs Freedom Corp?" or "What state is it currently in now that its headquarters is so much meteor rubble?"|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
SlickRiptide:
All true, but considering the source material and what the Big Two do on a regular basis, do you really think that having all the lore out there would stop Paragon from contradicting and/or rewriting it at whim anyway? Comic writers and game-lore writers both want the appearance of continuity, the illusion of depth and the gravitas of history, without actually being constrained by it in the slightest when they get a "better" idea. |
Galaxy Girl has the most extensive bio of any hero outside of the Freedom Phalanx, and she'd beat most of them out too if it wasn't for the _Freedom Phalanx_ novel. Even so, that bio amounts to a few paragraphs. The average NPC hero is fortunate to get more than a couple of sentences. We still know zilch-all about Hero Corp. and we only know anything about the Midnight Club because it became integral to the game environment. If you want to know what the background of the Midnight Club would be like (and was like in the earliest issues of the game) if it had not become integral to the game, then just ask yourself what you actually know, and can verify in-game, about the Dawn Patrol?
We have been told multiple times over the years that this world has this rich history and had that history hinted at in dribs and drabs as evidence of this supposed depth. We never get the actual history, though. The zone history plaques and certain exploration badges are the closest we've ever come to realizing most of what we know about the game world (and now Matt has assured us that what we do know doesn't necessarily matter anyway because that's old stuff written by somebody who doesn't work there any more and therefore no longer relevant). We're assured that there's a hearty meal here, but all we're given is snacks.
Basically, it's all frosting and no cake.
I realize that I do not represent the majority in caring about this and so I don't expect things to change. I just wish that the studio would see their way clear to once again hire a story content creator like Arctic Sun who does care about it and wants to put the effort into expanding it and elucidating it.
Venture:
Look, I get what you're saying, but we are talking about a very important rocket program here, and we can't afford a German gap!
(If Nazis offend, would you rather discuss how star athletes are always held to the highest standards of academic excellence and/or personal conduct?)
SlickRiptide:
Whenever someone brings up the story bible these days, I really think that somewhere over the years, they lost it. Literally, in all the regime changes, lost it. They put it down and it vanished or walked away, just like the jokes about Azuria. (And all that semi-documented code from the first few issues.) But they can't exactly admit that, can they?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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How many star athletes are mass murderers?
| If Nazis offend, would you rather discuss how star athletes are always held to the highest standards of academic excellence and/or personal conduct? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Nice caveat B) there; anything you can find, I can gainsay by espousing a universal truth that no one else agrees. |
Originally Posted by Venture
Actually, I would defy you to find a philosopher who a) argues that morality is fungible and b) is taken seriously. I can't think of even one.
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I'll pass. I've had enough exercise in futility for one thread.
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What does that even mean? The only "mistake" I see here is that you're comparing apples to footballs. (Not even oranges, because oranges and apples are at least both fruit. You're comparing a fictional story about people from another universe who can shoot lasers from their hands to a real group of people who did very real things in the real world)|
Originally Posted by Venture
Because, as I've said before, repeating a mistake doesn't magically make it not a mistake.
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And, yes, repeating that mistake over and over doesn't make it not a mistake.
(It is, however, nice to see Godwin's Law is still in full effect)
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| Which is ridiculous. Let's try for something better. |
I repeat: it doesn't matter what happened in WW2, because this game is not a WW2 simulation. It's a superhero story. And in superhero stories, even the most villainous characters can change sides.
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Agreed. For all that I come across as a dev fangirl, this is one of the few things that just drives me mad. I have long since been lobbying for the devs to make this info available to the playerbase (supposedly it's a word document, but now they have an internal wiki - or at least that's what Joe Morrissey told me at one of the HeroCons).|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
But that's the point I'm making. If the above is true and Matt has more or less made it official policy that the above is true, then what's the harm in just giving us the whole backstory instead of hoarding it like a chest of pirate treasure? Why do we have to guess the answers to basic questions like "Who actually founded Freedom Corp. and what was its original mission?" or even "Who currently runs Freedom Corp?" or "What state is it currently in now that its headquarters is so much meteor rubble?"
Galaxy Girl has the most extensive bio of any hero outside of the Freedom Phalanx, and she'd beat most of them out too if it wasn't for the _Freedom Phalanx_ novel. Even so, that bio amounts to a few paragraphs. The average NPC hero is fortunate to get more than a couple of sentences. We still know zilch-all about Hero Corp. and we only know anything about the Midnight Club because it became integral to the game environment. If you want to know what the background of the Midnight Club would be like (and was like in the earliest issues of the game) if it had not become integral to the game, then just ask yourself what you actually know, and can verify in-game, about the Dawn Patrol? We have been told multiple times over the years that this world has this rich history and had that history hinted at in dribs and drabs as evidence of this supposed depth. We never get the actual history, though. The zone history plaques and certain exploration badges are the closest we've ever come to realizing most of what we know about the game world (and now Matt has assured us that what we do know doesn't necessarily matter anyway because that's old stuff written by somebody who doesn't work there any more and therefore no longer relevant). We're assured that there's a hearty meal here, but all we're given is snacks. Basically, it's all frosting and no cake. I realize that I do not represent the majority in caring about this and so I don't expect things to change. I just wish that the studio would see their way clear to once again hire a story content creator like Arctic Sun who does care about it and wants to put the effort into expanding it and elucidating it. |
If it's no longer being used because it's outdated/irrelevant/whatever, let us see it as an example of how a game's canon lore was initially conceived. How much did THEY flesh out certain groups? Why were certain things changed (names, origins, whatever)? Why were certain things brainstormed but NOT developed?
However, I *SUSPECT* that the reason why they don't do it is because a) IF they ever go back and mine it for ideas, there's a major potential for spoilers, b) if they don't do it exactly as they detailed it (especially if the idea was a good one), the players will howl about it/bait and switch/we were lied to/not what was promised/insert other player rant here, or c) the players will immediately point out why they SHOULDN'T have used said idea because of how it breaks SOMETHING (canon lore/their own personal history/whatever).
Still wish they'd release it, though.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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Exhibit A: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Appeasing fascist dictatorships doesn't have a good tack record. |
I swear, at least one of the devs is a history buff.
to 
TO THE END!Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"