Questions of morality and culpability aside, the question that I'm most interested in is this:
How does the game benefit from the "redemption" one or more of the Praetors or Cole himself or even a minor character like the Duray twins? (There were two at last count, I think... I suppose that theoretically you could have an army of them.)
Actually, I could possibly get into a story based around "Duray" waking up with his last memory being the attack on Primal, only to dig his way out of the lab and discover that Nova Praetoria is a nuclear wasteland.
He then goes about prosecuting the war in the best way he can, essentially acting out the same role as the semi-mythical Japanese soldier post-WW2 who is stuck on an island and doesn't know the war is over. Whether he's successful or not, when he's caught, the authorities have to deal with the question as to whether a clone is responsible for the past actions of previous clones, and whether being "programmed" to behave a particular way (due to implanted memories) causes him to be acting under a kind of duress.
Upon learning the truth about the war and its outcome, Duray-double-prime might legitimately decide to start a new life of his own instead of continuing to act on the memories and feelings of a "master copy" who is long dead and, essentially, nothing more than an echo of a memory.
However - this story kernel works for me because "Duray" is not really cupable for past actions, or at least it can be argued that he is a new personality who could make new choices if he was given the opportunity. I don't see how an argument like that could be made for any of the Praetors.
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There are questions of jurisdiction of punishing the Tyrant and Praetors for acts against Praetorians in Praetoria. If a new civilian authority was established in Praetoria, presumably Cole and the Praetors would be put on trial by them, but right now anyone in Praetoria is focused on getting out of Praetoria. If a government of Praetorian ex-pats is created, they might have jurisdiction, but would they be allowed to do so, and would we be sure that the elected government would hold the Resistance line as opposed to Loyalist? Who will the Praetorian civilian blame for the destruction of their reasonably comfortable life and being forced to leave the world they've lived in all their life?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's not the way accountability works
 As the supreme ruler of Praetorian Earth, Tyrant is accountable and responsible for the actions taken by those under him - especially those he has personally appointed to positions of power, and allowed to keep their positions even when he knew they were carrying out crimes against hiumanity. The whole feeble "maybe he didn't know" defense collapses at once when the scale of the crimes committed by his underlings and the length of time they were allowed to go on for becomes clear. All the Paretors are bad people, but Tyrant still gave them all the important roles in his dictatorship - where they kept on being bad people for years and years, while Tyrant did nothing about them. Plus, there's also things like the invasion plans revealing that Tyrant was not only aware of the planned genoice on Primal Earth but had actually given the order for it, along with him telling ex-loyalists escaping to Paragon City that he has blood on his hands. Tyrant is fully aware of, and responsible for, the suffering of the Praetorian people under the loyalist dictatorship, and the planned war crimes against Primal Earth and the rest of the multiverse. |
As for Primal Earth - In most of the battles that take place in Primal Earth, the invading forces are apparently taking more than reasonable care in getting civilians out of the way, a lot more than taken by most real life armies. Yes, they'll blast metahumans with happy abandon, but I'd argue that we're the soldiers in this war, and coming to Primal Earth to attack metahumans is the same as metahumans going to Praetoria and slaughtering the Praetorian combatants there. The Praetorian War, at least as expressed in the Incarnate Trials, is in some ways a throwback to World War I warfare, where two armies fight it out and try to leave the civilians out of it. There are some missions from Maria Jenkins or Tina Macintyre that take place in civilian areas, but even so, they aren't herding the civilians into groups for mass execution or taking them back for experimentation.
Contrast that with the Rikti, which slaughtered civilians by the thousands - and we're busy trying to make peace with them.
All that said, I have my doubts that there would be any legal niceties like a trial involved with Cole or the Praetors. It's not like Wade got a trial. Longbow, Vanguard, Arachnos all show a willingness to do "what it takes" to deal with those they perceive to be threats, regardless of the law. Which dims the line between them and Malta, doesn't it?
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They provide events to weave into arcs. Instead of being sent to mountaintop in the rain where Cimerora once stood, Cole is put to work debriefing Vanguard scientists on what he knows about his Hamidon, learning about Primal Hamidon and how it applies. There are groups that are angry about this, willing to break the law to impose their own justice, you have to stop them. Maybe you get picked as the lucky guy to try Cole's strategy to end Primal Hamidon once and for all.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Questions of morality and culpability aside, the question that I'm most interested in is this:
How does the game benefit from the "redemption" one or more of the Praetors or Cole himself or even a minor character like the Duray twins? (There were two at last count, I think... I suppose that theoretically you could have an army of them.) |
And if the devs need a deus ex machina to finish off a story, Cole busts out and sacrifices himself.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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It's a thin, red one.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
There's a line between Longbow and Malta?
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If nothing else, it could provide inspiration for a great series of Road Picture movies starring Tyrant and Reichsman! |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Questions of morality and culpability aside, the question that I'm most interested in is this:
How does the game benefit from the "redemption" one or more of the Praetors or Cole himself or even a minor character like the Duray twins? |
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"Sometimes... for the greater good, sacrifices must be made."|
Originally Posted by NaoGal
Ah, I loved that episode...
Also, as a slight counter-point to something that was said here... If a man had to sacrifice 50,000 people in order to save 5,000,000, does that make him an irredeemable murderer? Or could the argument be made that... "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?" |
"Sacrifices?!"
"Oh, my son... they were only slaves."
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Sure, one is a group of fanatics who have a really fragmented command structure, generally act outside the law and want to control all Supers for the greater good. And the other is the Malta Group |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
There's a line between Longbow and Malta?
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A line that gets extra Viewer Punch points for being delivered by kindly old Patrick Stewart. |
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
"Sometimes... for the greater good, sacrifices must be made."
"Sacrifices?!" "Oh, my son... they were only slaves." |
(On the other hand, the Lord is just fine with killing lots of innocents (first-born sons and otherwise) for the benefit of His chosen people... it's that kind of story and/or era, plenty of Values Dissonance all around.)
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That's a different kettle of fish, but that sort of writing is why so many players treat Longbow as a quasi-villain organization instead of the heroes that the Devs keep trying to present them as being.
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Originally Posted by GadgetDon
Longbow, Vanguard, Arachnos all show a willingness to do "what it takes" to deal with those they perceive to be threats, regardless of the law. Which dims the line between them and Malta, doesn't it?
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You mean no evidence besides their own freely admitted involvement in the whole thing?|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Assuming I was on the jury stand? On the grounds that I can't link a single piece of evidence directly to him, which fails to meet the requirement of guilt beyond reasonable doubt.
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I think you'll find more then enough witnesses and documentation to send each one to the gallows many times over.
Every time you turn around they tell you where they buried the bodies. The psych hospital and Cole's tower have documents on everything. These people were meticulous record keepers. They will all swing.
On top of that they all think, with maybe the exception of Cole, they were all doing the right thing. They are also all insane. Put them on the stand and I'm sure they will be more than happy to tell you what they did to "protect" Praetoria.
Something witty and profound
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She did not just "sell fixadine". She literally empowered a terrorist organization whose purpose was to attack her own people just so the state would have a tangible enemy to fight for PR purposes. This is a war crime and she is guilty as sin. She was also personally involved in the capture and torture of both Statesman and Positron, though that's just throwing another shrimp on the barbie given the number of people she's doubtlessly done that to.| Was Dominatrix found guilty of any "irredeemable" crime that crossed your alledged moral event-horizon? What exactly are you accusing her off, selling fixadine? Making her mommy look bad in front of grampa? Wearing skimpy clothes? |
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| Venture, at some point you've got to start judging the praetorian antagonists for crimes we can actually prove they committed, which means listening to their defense before reaching a veredict. |
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| And yes, only utterly defeated armies who oppress powerful people ever get to see their officers tried for crimes against humanity. |
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| You say none of the Praetors would walk if it were up to you, and that no reasonable jury would see past their guilt - I say that upon reviewing the evidence presented, I'd be forced to release Cole, Duncan and Keyes (regrettably, this one, but I can't prove he murdered Rusty). |
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| Well, I've written some fan fiction on the redemption of Tom Riddle |
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| In our own world, there are those who have created horrible crimes and found a change of life in prison. |
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| And it's too easy to say "they're a sociopath, might as well throw them against the wall and shoot them." |
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| If they are truly redeemed in their hearts then they would be willing to stand trial and accept the just punishment decided by the court (up to and including a death sentence for their crimes). Anything less and they're not REALLY repentant or redeemed, they're just looking for a way to get out of their just punishment. |
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| Why would anyone take a conversation here seriously is beyond me |
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| If a man had to sacrifice 50,000 people in order to save 5,000,000, does that make him an irredeemable murderer? |
If, to spin a contrived scenario, you have a flood or other imminent natural disaster heading for a city and your choices are to deploy resources to point A which will result in an estimated 50,000 casualties or point B which will result in an estimated 5,000,000 casualties, with no third option, your choice shouldn't be very hard.
If, on the other hand, you have decided to murder 50,000 people in the hopes of finding the cure for a disease that might kill 5,000,000, you're a war criminal and your research, if any, should be destroyed after your trial with no dissemination. (Yes, I know this wasn't done with research from Japanese and Nazi concentration camps. It should have been.)
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| There are questions of jurisdiction of punishing the Tyrant and Praetors for acts against Praetorians in Praetoria. |
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| [Praetorian redemptions] provide events to weave into arcs. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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It's mildly amusing to realize that Going Rogue was, in fact, the very first signature story arc and not an alternate gameplay reality at all. I agree - Let it die now. I certainly don't have any incentive to create or play a yellow character at this point.
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Originally Posted by Venture
We don't need them. We don't have a shortage of plot elements. The best thing to do with Praetoria is to let it die off and return the storyline to the main continuity.
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Originally Posted by Venture
We don't have a shortage of plot elements. The best thing to do with Praetoria is to let it die off and return the storyline to the main continuity.
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As much as I like Gold side I have to agree. If it had been a true expansion to the game and not a hyper story arc then by all means continue to develop it. Unfortunately it's not. The primal side has a deep background that is very rarely explored. I'd like to see more of it. Heck I thought O-Zone was going to offer missions from the games past not arcs I missed.
Think of it... Fighting with the Dawn Patrol or the Phalanx in WWII. Things like that.
Something witty and profound
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Originally Posted by NaoGal
If a man had to sacrifice 50,000 people in order to save 5,000,000, does that make him an irredeemable murderer?"
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Originally Posted by Venture
Define "sacrifice". If, to spin a contrived scenario, you have a flood or other imminent natural disaster heading for a city and your choices are to deploy resources to point A which will result in an estimated 50,000 casualties or point B which will result in an estimated 5,000,000 casualties, with no third option, your choice shouldn't be very hard. If, on the other hand, you have decided to murder 50,000 people in the hopes of finding the cure for a disease that might kill 5,000,000, you're a war criminal and your research, if any, should be destroyed after your trial with no dissemination. (Yes, I know this wasn't done with research from Japanese and Nazi concentration camps. It should have been.) |
Keyes moral compass not withstanding, (and Emperor Cole in this particular instance, since he is the one that ended up making the actual choice, I believe,) he was put in the un-enviable position of making a choice between letting the DE ravage and kill everyone in First Ward (and possibly more, it's never exactly clear on that) or stopping the DE then and there, with the full understanding that some would have to be sacrificed to save others.
Exact numbers (or even vague numbers, as far as I know) aren't ever given to us but it's not beyond reasonable to say that thousands died, so that thousands more may live.
As for the second part of your comment... I find it ironic (and naively foolish) to say that all research should be destroyed in such a scenario. Because, regardless of the questionable ethics involved, many advances in the field of medicine were built off of the research that Nazi's did. How many lives do you suppose were saved because of that?
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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I thought the time acceleration thing was Neuron's doing...|
Originally Posted by Venture
Anti-Matter was ready to deploy a weapon of mass destruction in a civilian area (again, his own) heedless of any potential for civilian casualties. He also personally accellerated the flow of time in two dimensions condemning any inhabitants to violent insanity. Depending on the scope of the phenomenon the casualties in each case would range from thousands to trillions. Again, this is just what he's done in game; it is more than reasonable to assume that he is directly responsible for or complicit in multiple crimes against humanity, many perpetrated against his own people.
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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This. Let's see Recluse, Nemesis, Countess Crey, Requiem and his lieutenants, The Center, Malta, Circle of Thorns, Freakshow, Primal's Devouring Earth, Vanessa DeVore and her Carnival, Clockwork King, the Coralax and their Leviathan, Emil Marcone, King Midas, Rularuu, or the Skulls and Hellions be relevant and at the front of a story again.
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Originally Posted by Venture
We don't have a shortage of plot elements. The best thing to do with Praetoria is to let it die off and return the storyline to the main continuity.
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The revised arc has Anti-Matter doing it to get stuff done faster (perhaps an attempt to keep up with Neuron, it's been a while). The Pre-GR arc did have Neuron doing it.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
I thought the time acceleration thing was Neuron's doing...
Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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Contrived in the sense that such situations are usually not so cut and dried.| The real world is full of scenarios that you would probably consider 'contrived', but none the less viable for making this sort of argument. |
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| But for the sake of this, lets go with the fictional scenario that occurred in First Ward when the Devouring Earth ended up destroying the majority of the place, and many people in it. |
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| As for the second part of your comment... I find it ironic (and naively foolish) to say that all research should be destroyed in such a scenario. Because, regardless of the questionable ethics involved, many advances in the field of medicine were built off of the research that Nazi's did. How many lives do you suppose were saved because of that? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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You might want to start with staying away from anything having to do with satellites then.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Contrived in the sense that such situations are usually not so cut and dried.
We actually have no idea what happened to First Ward. It's highly unlikely that the official state version of events has more than a passing similarity to the truth. As I said, I am aware of that and it was a mistake. The real world does have people in it that would gladly murder people in an attempt to cure (e.g.) cancer. They wouldn't care that they'd be remembered as insane butchers because they'd also be remembered for the cure. It needs to be social policy that in such cases any results will be destroyed without being used or study so there's no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. It doesn't matter how many lives might be saved because human lives are not currency. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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A lot of the Praetorian are Still alive and well, I remember them saying only the Robots and Mother mayhem are dead on the Coffee talk, when they had Doctor Aeon as an Guess. They said most of Villeins are either in Jail or have Escape and ran off. |
Originally Posted by Voyce
Hi everybody,
First of all, this topic is going to contain spoilers so please don't read if you're sensitive to those sorts of things. I've played for a while but never bothered posting and I looked for this topic but couldn't find it. (Sorry if it currently exists) As the title indicates I was wondering which of the Praetorians are actually dead. Dead in this case meaning "not going to make a comeback later on". For the bulk of them we're not given a solid answer but I was wondering if there were canon outcomes that I'd missed. This is what I've taken away from the latest stories so please correct me if I'm wrong: -Tyrant - I haven't had time to play the magisterium yet, does he die or does he just have his powers taken away and throw him in the zig? -Dominatrix - Joined the resistance and primal earth during the Dark Astoria Saga. She's not the nicest person so I assume she'll betray the Hero side as soon as it benefits her, possibly a good rival for Miss Liberty? -Anti-Matter - Defeated during Keyes Island trial, nothing to indicate he's actually dead, possibly had his power suit destroyed. Perhaps he's hiding out on his space station? -Battle Maiden - Defeated during Apex task force, appears to have joined Malta during the DA storyline. -Neuron - Defeated during Tin Mage Mk II Taskforce, during the most recent Praetorian Arc, Belladonna's arc, she states that both Praetor White and Berry are missing or have vanished. That implies to me that while they were defeated that weren't actually killed and may have fled to primal earth or elsewhere. -Bobcat - Defeated during Tin Mage Mk II, I haven't seen her mentioned since. I assume if Neuron is alive Bobcat will be too. -Mother Mayhem - Appears to have died during the MoM trial, the final phase indicates her mind is actually dying. One of the NPCs does say that she may be hiding in some far edge of the Seer network so maybe she could make a comeback. -Malaise - Appears to have been overwhelmed by Mother Mayhems will and then destroyed during the MoM trial. -Siege - "His" body is overpowered during the BaF and taken over by Metronome. One of Maria Jenkins random missions seems to indicate that Siege isn't a robot as much as he is a computer program meaning he could possibly move himself to a new war walker body if he needed to. -Nightstar - Deactivated during the BaF trial, nothing to indicate she still exists. -Chimera - Appears to die during the Magisterium trial, doesn't defeating him trigger a dead mans switch? -Black Swan - Defeated during the Magisterium, possible she's still alive. -Diabolique - Destroyed by Dream Doctor using the Dagger of Jocas, apparently. -Infernal - I think the only mention of the Praetorian Infernal I've seen is during Maria Jenkins arc. I assume he/she is still alive. -Marauder - Defeated during Lamda trial, seems to have recovered from his defeat and fled praetoria. (Belladonna mentions that P. White has vanished, I assume if he died in Lamda they'd mention it) -Maelstrom - Defeated during TPN Campus, could be dead or alive. As a side note, has there ever been mention of a Praetorian Lady Grey? Edit: Also has there ever been a mention of the Praetorian verisons of the arachnos patrons and their henchmen? (excluding Belladonna) |
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You.. mean like they did with Dark Astoria? And the Signature Story Arcs? The game has been pushing along non-Praetorian story elements for a while. Praetoria has been 'the star' with the Incarnate Trials and new zones, but it's hardly the only show in town.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
This. Let's see Recluse, Nemesis, Countess Crey, Requiem and his lieutenants, The Center, Malta, Circle of Thorns, Freakshow, Primal's Devouring Earth, Vanessa DeVore and her Carnival, Clockwork King, the Coralax and their Leviathan, Emil Marcone, King Midas, Rularuu, or the Skulls and Hellions be relevant and at the front of a story again.
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And yet no less valid for this argument...|
Originally Posted by Venture
Contrived in the sense that such situations are usually not so cut and dried.
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Originally Posted by Venture
We actually have no idea what happened to First Ward. It's highly unlikely that the official state version of events has more than a passing similarity to the truth.
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Originally Posted by Venture
As I said, I am aware of that and it was a mistake. The real world does have people in it that would gladly murder people in an attempt to cure (e.g.) cancer. They wouldn't care that they'd be remembered as insane butchers because they'd also be remembered for the cure. It needs to be social policy that in such cases any results will be destroyed without being used or study so there's no pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. It doesn't matter how many lives might be saved because human lives are not currency.
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Also, such a social policy that you are suggesting...
Think about what you are saying for a moment?
If this 'insane butcher' had managed to find such a cure, you would be condemning millions of cancer victims to death...
Not that I'm saying the guy who killed people for that cure should get a free pass, but how is destroying their research morally any better then curing the disease?
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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The first half of Dark Astoria centers around the Talons of Vengeance, a group we first encounter in First Ward. They just hop over into our dimension and decide to become our enemies in a story about Dark Astoria. The second half involves us buddying up with Dominatrix and fighting Diabolique as she plots to use Mot. Mot and the Pantheon don't even really become relevant until the very end. And even then, the finale iTrial is all about Diabolique.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
You.. mean like they did with Dark Astoria? And the Signature Story Arcs? The game has been pushing along non-Praetorian story elements for a while. Praetoria has been 'the star' with the Incarnate Trials and new zones, but it's hardly the only show in town.
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And the Sig Story Arc is nothing but a side adventure. I'll admit, it's nice that it doesn't revolve around anything Praetorian related, but comparing a monthly three mission arc to an entire issue's worth of content won't work.
Like I said, we've got a huge list of villains in our own dimension that haven't been touched in ages. Let's pick one and make an issue about them instead of dedicating resources to things like Night Ward and making even more enemy groups we'll only see once.
It may be instructive to compare Praetoria to Omelas.
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