What the "Win" in Pay to Win means to me.

Honestly? No I don't believe you. Why? Because what you're saying is contradictory. You have no logical reason for disliking anything being for sale in the market that doesn't have something to do with another player.

Any item being for sale does NOT affect you in any way beyond it being an option to purchase. In fact items NOT FOR SALE are more likely to diminish the game experience for someone than anything that IS FOR SALE.

If something being in the market bothers you... ask yourself why... really ask. If it does bother you and it ultimately comes down to "I did this to get this. If I can just buy it then it cheapens the experience for me" then ask yourself how exactly this purchasable option cheapens anything you do. You don't HAVE to buy it.

I honestly believe anyone who tries to use that BS excuse against the market is really saying "It cheapens the experience for me knowing that while I may avoid buying this item from the market and earn it in game which is the right way to play... somewhere someone else will buy it which is the wrong way to play and that this somehow in some way diminishes any effort I have made to get it without buying from the market"

How you "feel" about something in game or what your idea of what is the "right way to play" should not impact how another player plays the game.

It's sorta like equality for minorities. Just because someone or a group of someones don't like a specific minority for whatever reason, be it religious, ethnic, orientation, etc, doesn't mean that minorities should be denied equal rights under the law.

THIS.

Get a sub.

That's funny because I still pay a king's ransom for Strangers in Paradise blueline books (signed by Terry Moore) and I've made specific trips to see him in person so I can get sketches, autographs on my issues and even hang out with him. I could go on Ebay and get sketches and autoed items but I'd just rather do it myself and have the satisfaction of knowing I have unique items...like say these French perfect-bound SiPs that came my way because a friend helped him with some translation and I get to keepsake them for a bit while he moves around. Kinda like having the keys to Fort Knox but having to return it in a few weeks, heh.

Strangers in Paradise was a great series. I have the trade paperbacks, I should probably read those again. Thanks, you took me back a few years.

Fundamentally, I think caring too deeply about what other players do in game is setting one's self up for disappointment and stress you just don't need in a past time.

Oh so true my friend. The worse cases are the one's that desire to "control" what you do in the game you pay your 15 bucks a month to play.

Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

I think that relies on a reading of my question out of the context we're discussing.

EDIT: (Not in response to Arcanaville, I just didn't want to make a new post)

What I find absolutely fascinating about this discussion is the complete inability of the participants (on both sides, I count myself), to accept what the other says at face value. I am becoming more convinced by the post that this is exactly like politics or religion. We come at the problem from different starting points, different value systems and so when I say something like, "Some items in the marketplace bother ME irrespective of the actions of others", others who disagree can't even comprehend how that can be true. Many responses to the question I posed are along the lines of "we believe you are not lying, but you're still wrong." Which is amazing to me because I honestly can't see how either side could be wrong here. People can like different things. I see this as little different than saying, "I like the color green but not the color orange." I doubt anyone would feel the need to ascribe motive to that statement. It's just a statement of preference.

Likewise, I don't like certain parts of the game being sold away in the marketplace. I am an attorney and have spent many years arguing both sides of an issue. I fully understand how to tease out biases. I do not care what other players do (in this context Arcana...meanie!). I care, because I think selling certain things make the experience of earning them meaningless. I also realize that no matter how many times I state that, some folks will nonetheless believe that I am trying to control what they do. I can't change that. Nor will I argue against it any longer. I see no point. We have different beliefs. That's not going to change.

Just to let folks know, I don't object to the market or even selling many items in it that affect the game. I have very deep reservations about selling the amplifiers, what goes in the super packs and the purple IOs. Other than that, I use the market often and am quite happy about how it's helped fund such quick expansion of content.

I have some questions for you:

Why do you have reservations about anything being in the store?

How does anything being in the store impact your gameplay?



Your "feelings" are just as valid as anyone elses. With that said, feelings have to be tempered with logic. You don't have to like everything that goes in to the store. But is it logical to deny adding it when it can generate income that will keep the game going?

No one is ever forced to buy any specific thing in the store. If someones values/beliefs tells them "these things are bad for the game" that's fine. They don't have to partake of them. But denying others the opportunity to buy specific things (by lobbying to have stuff kept out of the store or removed from the store) simply because they don't like it, or they think it somehow hurts the game based on their beliefs and values that others may not share, doesn't seem very fair in my opinion.

Everyone should have the opportunity to speak to the devs with their dollars. Some things will sell very well and those dollars tell the devs what many people want. When things don't sell well the devs know what is less appealing to the player base on average. Preventing things from ever being added or removing things from the store only stifles our voices. Now that doesn't mean I advocate putting any and everything in the store. Some things would just either not make sense or fundamentally side-step the game as a whole (like say being able to buy a lvl 50). There's logical reasons to not add some things. When it comes to decision making it's not usually wise to just let feelings (as irrational as they can be) be the guiding factor in determining our conclusions. Tempering those feelings with logic helps to create a balanced outcome.

Interesting. I earned it once and had absolutely no use for it on that character. I looked at it in the costume creator and contemplated various costumes that I might use on a new character incorporating those pieces, but since they weren't available starting out they remained useless and I never bothered chasing them again.

I was happy when it became potentially available for everyone from the start. It didn't kill a piece of the game for me, it brought a dead piece to life.

When you say that it bothers you irrespective of the actions of others, but then outline why it bothers you in a manner that incorporates the actions of others it makes your statement seem self-contradictory. Of course, if you didn't include the potential actions of others you'd just be highlighting your own kooky hang-ups (and I've never met anyone who doesn't have a kooky hang-up or two, so that's not meant to be an insult). Nonsense isn't necessarily sensible, no matter how reasonably we try to present it - so maybe it *is* exactly like religion or politics...

He's really not. Maybe you don't feel the same way, and that's great, but I certainly share EG's sentiment. If, tomorrow, they released a "Badge Pack" on the market, containing every badge in the game, I would lose interest in hunting badges. Even if I never actually bought that pack, I wouldn't care nearly as much about badge hunting, simply because I'd know, in the back of my mind, that I could just buy it with two simple clicks. The effort, to me, would lose meaning.

I don't care whether other people have "bought" or "earned" their builds. The fact that I have the option to buy it, actively detracts from my desire to build anything in the first place.

I think that's what EG was getting at, too.

Now on the surface one could say this is irrational. But there is a very logical reason NOT to add such a "badge pack". Such an item in the store would actually diminish an in game activity. It would rob the buyer of the incentive and opportunity to engage in the badge hunting activity which has its own rewards like xp/inf, accolades and reward merits.

Acquiring IO's in an of itself is not an activity with associated rewards in the traditional sense. I know, some people can look at it like acquiring is an activity and the set bonuses are the reward but that's a bit abstract and not the "traditional" way such things are viewed IMO. IO's are a reward (often random) for engaging in specific activities or through use of various currencies earned through in game play (merits of varying kinds). The store adds a way for real world currency to be used to acquire these things. In most cases however it's far more cost effective to use in game means to get these things at least as far as I have seen. But for the convenience and the real world cost, I don't mind people buying them since it supports the game. It's like the people buying these things are buying me new content for the game.

The amplifiers are nothing more than hour long multi-aspect inspirations when you really stop to think about it. To me they're something I'd never waste money on... but hey for anyone who buys them regularly... more power to ya and thank you for spending money to develop my game ^_^

I personally believe, however, that it is irrational to stop engaging in an activity you enjoy (playing coh) because the market allows people to use their real world money to purchase in game items. There is no logical reason why you should no longer like playing the game just because you have an OPTION to acquire things in a different way than you typically did... especially when that option potentially pays to keep the game alive and growing. The only conclusion I can come to when someone makes such a declaration is that they compare what they do and have to what others do and have regardless of their claims to the contrary. And somehow when someone else gets something they "worked so hard for!" by simply spending real world money, or even if they just have the opportunity to do so but don't exercise it, it inexplicably invalidates everything they accomplished to get or do whatever it was they got or did. There is no logical explanation why an option merely existing has this profound effect on someone's outlook of the game.

Not to nitpick but... doesn't that mean you are letting what others can/might do affect you?

I could care less how much defense Hero X has...and hey if they have more through amplifiers and I am teaming with them...guess maybe my mission/team will do slightly better?

I don't need a defense boost; for example, 8 hours straight. If I find myself in a situation where I do need more... I gots insps

I think this whole argument over what other people are spending their money on is silly; especially when it doesn't affect my xp/inf gain/drops. Like I said before.... I see it as a non-issue when it comes to how I play.

Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

No, the athletically gifted guy still worked for it.

He had to show up for practice and games just like the rest of the team.

The fact that it came more naturally to him isn't particularly relevant. Regardless of the athetic talent involved, that letter was earned for being there and participating.

You couldn't just plunk down $5 at the school store and have the same letter.

That was his point. What the letter meant to the athletically gifted guy isn't particularly relevant either, since Geko was referring to its importance to him.

I somewhat agree with his stance.

Where I differ is that I don't care if someone else purchased a reward that I earned. *I* know I earned it, and that's all I really care about.

To use the same athletics analogy: Sure, maybe that schmuck over there bought his letter to put on his jacket, what difference does it really make though?

The schmuck isn't in any of the team pictures. There's no record of him having played in any of those games. There are no statistics permanently etched into that school's history that were accomplished by him. And most importantly, he did not have the experience of being on that team and playing in those games.

It isn't the letter itself that has meaning, it's the memories associated with the earning of that letter that are what Geko really treasures, whether he realizes it himself of not.

The guy who bought his? He doesn't have those memories. And that is the most important distinction between the two.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

To be clear, your premise is that if something can be both earned and bought, it lessens the value of earning it. Correct?

It doesn't matter if you never buy it yourself, the simple fact that the option exists, lessens the value of earning it. If NO ONE ever buys it and everyone only ever earns it, earning it is still cheapened by the mere possibility of buying it.

It seems a rational, if weird, position. I don't feel that way in general, but it doesn't seem crazy or anything.

Basically the way I view the concept, particularly with a niche product as long in the tooth as this is (yet still lively and fun mind you), I'm not cut to the quick by one monther johnnyhotcakes equaling or surpassing the stats on my toon that may have taken many months acquiring accolades-ios-incarnates to achieve. It can potentially lead to better pugs with fewer deaths and faster progress.

As far as any other ramifications emanating from pay/win I'll leave that to others to ruminate over.

I believe you. But then, I also don't have any trouble with the idea that having the option of buying something at the store makes achieving it in game feel less satisfying to you. It isn't a view I share, but I don't think it's silly, or illogical, or impossible.

I hit 50 on a Dark/Dark Brute before I9 and IO's, foolishly not taking Acrobatics.

I think I've earned the right to feel proud of what that Brute is today, especially since I did things The Really Hard Way.

You have correctly stated how I feel.

No. It it wholly irrelevant what others can do. I recognize that this premise is difficult to wrap ones head around, but it is the truth.

I don't know... For I forget how many years, people have been trying very hard to convince me that the game isn't designed for me, I'm an outlier, what I want isn't good for the game and that the game will never be fair towards me. Hell, the Evil Geko himself once commented that he specifically wanted the game to NOT be designed to appeal to me because of my bad attitude or some such. There's a reason we don't speak to each other.

Somewhere along the line I gave up on arguing with this notion, because it's a rotating cast of ever newer people always giving me the same argument. And besides, the game is always going to be unfair to me if I don't shoot for "the best" but instead only aim for "good enough." It only really bothers me when it gets worse, and niches I thought I had are rendered invalid. You liked Galaxy City and the old missions? Tough, the Atlas Park makeover wasn't aimed at you. It doesn't have to be fair, it has to make money.

That's kind of why I've supported selling power if it's being SOLD as opposed to RENTED out. If we're going to make the game unfair, then at least let's make it consistent in its unfairness and avoid the constant "rental" feel of it.

Yeah, this is one notion I'll never support. Having worked for an item does NOT make it worth more and it most certainly doesn't make me value it any higher. For me, it's actually quite the opposite - the harder I worked for something, the higher its cost is to me thus the lower its overall worth unless it comes with a very high value. The Roman gear... Really doesn't have that high a value to justify its cost. It's only ever worth using if I happen to reach it with a character that didn't really need it but could still probably use it, at which point its value isn't all that higher, it just cost me less since I wanted it less and "earning" it came as part of a different activity done for a different reason.

I operate on the following principle: worth = value - cost. In other words, how much an item earned is worth to me is a function of how much value I put on the item itself irrespective of the circumstances of obtaining it, and how much earning it actually cost me in terms of time, money, opportunity and pain-in-the-***. And yes, it's a very real possibility that earning an item incurs such a cost that the item's actual value can never offset it, and I end up feeling cheated. It doesn't matter how hard I worked for the Inf, I CANNOT spend a billion of it for Excalibur and leave thinking the item was worth getting. Especially since, having seen it in practice, it's not even all that great. What Alex made for Xanta (see my sig) is considerably better, even if it's restricted to that piece of artwork.

This is something that I think people really need to stop and think about, because this emotional response is very real and not something that can just be hand-waved away. I agree with Slaunyeh's sentiment here - when something is made available through "easy" means, then earning it the hard way makes me feel stupid and, more importantly, it makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. When the /auctionhouse command was first introduced, I swore that I'd only ever use it in emergencies and travel to a real Market whenever I wanted to use it. Then I found myself in several situations where I would need to cross three different zones to get to an actual Market. Then I realised it was more convenient to open the Market next to an Invention Table or a Vendor. Then I realised it was more convenient to open the Market remotely period. I haven't visited an actual Market in probably a year, as a result.

For certain things, the process of obtaining them is part of the fun of having them. For instance, I wouldn't want a paid option to start at level 50, because getting there is the majority of the fun. HAVING this option constantly looming over me, however, causes my subconscious to constantly bug me about "You do realise you're wasting your time, right? You know there's an easier way, right?" That's all fine and dandy for as long as I actually enjoy the journey unconditionally, but even for someone as stuck in his old ways as I am, certain things just bug me. Now when that happens, I grumble and muscle through them because, at the end of the day, one stupid mission full of MoG-using Paragon Protectors isn't that bad. It sucks, but it's easy enough to ignore when it's part of the process. But when I have a choice to just skip it all entirely and shoot straight to the end? Yeah, that effort seems all the more wasted and the annoyance of the situation all the more insufferable.

After having considered my options, I don't mind paying to circumvent built-in annoyances the game has to offer, but I'd rather not have the option to skip what's supposed to be the good part and the point of the game. Even if I don't take it, knowing that I could sours the experience.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I understand where you're coming from.

But consider this:

Eventually, the game will shut down forever. We don't get to keep ANY of the stuff we acquired in the game.

Except the memories of having done those things. We get to keep those.

The things you earned, you will remember the fun you had earning them.

The guy who bought those same things? He'll remember typing in his credit card number.

Who wins in the end?

To further your athletic analogy (a rather apt one I think).

Someday, the star quarterback of your football team might recognize you in the grocery store and spend a few minutes reminiscing about the time you won that game by 2 points in the pouring rain and the bus broke downm on your way back.

The guy who bought his letter will never have that happen, because he was not there. The quarterback will remember you as having been a part of something that was important to him in his own life. Whether you even played in the game he remembers is irrelevant, you were there and you were his teammate.

Things like that last forever. The other guy? He has a piece of fabric in a scrapbook, but NONE of the memories and experiences that go with it.

In that sense alone, YOUR letter is worth more than his will ever be. If you were to both lose that letter, you'll still have the memories. The other guy will have nothing.

It's not YOUR experience that is being cheapened by the ability to buy rewards. It's the experience of those buying them that is.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

In other words, to you, the act of building your character is the game unto itself, and you feel that the dev's are belittling that game for you. I can sympathize with that, even if I don't share the feeling. For me (and I imagine the rest of the people that don't share your misgivings), building your character is just an obstacle in the path to having fun playing the game.