What the "Win" in Pay to Win means to me.
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-06-28 11:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
If they start offering incarnate style level shifts on the market, I think that will be a bridge too far.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I realize that you have a really hard time shaking the idea that this is about other people, but it still isn't. Also, no one is demanding that you stop having fun, or even demand that anything is changed.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
The real issue is with the people who've built it up into such a big thing in their heads that they don't want anyone else to play with it or, gods forbid, actually have fun with it.
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No, I'm saying that I like to ride pink bunnies through a sunlit moor on bank holiday while Yankee Doodle plays on a record-player that I have tied to the back of my head with giant zip-ties. No, seriously, re-read my post, I'm sure you'll find a way to claim that, too.|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
So you're saying that you're not happy unless you have something to complain about. That's fair.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
I think this whole "Pay to Win" debacle is a non-issue. The real issue is with the people who've built it up into such a big thing in their heads that they don't want anyone else to play with it or, gods forbid, actually have fun with it.
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The problem isn't "other people," but I guess you know what people are thinking better than people themselves and are capable of reading subtext in their posts that they never intended to put there, so feel free to proceed with your armchair psychology. My pink-bunny-riding self is apparently not smart enough to logically address your baseless straw man and my arguments just serve to give you an excuse to reply with "So you're saying something you're not actually saying? OK."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Honestly, that's a big part of where I think the disconnect lies. You seem to value achievement, and I personally really don't. Not for myself, not for others. I've always treated games more like toys than like a sport. This is my action figure simulator where the bulk of my fun is contained within making cool characters and having them do cool things. The "game" aspect of it, by which I mean the part where I as a player oppose the system, isn't terribly interesting to me. It's useful in the broadest sense, in that it gives me a much-needed direction, but I find no satisfaction in "beating" the system and "winning" the game. I mostly find satisfaction in playing around with the system.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Ideally game achievements should be rewards for game effort and only game effort.
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I don't mind Performance Boosters because they let other people achieve more than I do. That's not even a tangential issue. I mind performance boosters because of what they're likely to do to my own experience. On the one hand, I should really like them since they give me greater control over the game world and my own experience. However, on the other hand, they're clearly meant to be consumables, and I HATE depending on consumables. It's too easy to get used to them and too common to NOT have them when I need them most. I'm already running behind the curve as it is, with my reluctance to use many of the new, better methods for character building and "kitting out." I really don't want more of that.
That said, this iteration of "pay 2 win" is not that bad, and it actually shouldn't be a problem. But that doesn't really justify the greater concept. Provided the development team can resist pushing this too far and designing around it, I don't envision this being a problem. Maybe an annoyance, granted, but not a real problem. But the concept of "pay 2 win" itself is still a very dangerous prospect that has the potential to unravel the entirety of the "game" part of this game. And for as much fun as it is as a dress-up doll, City of Heroes still needs to be a game to have any lasting appeal.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sam and I argued about what he writes above incessantly during Issue 19's timeframe. But what I find intriguing is how he frames it here. While I like games with challenge and achievement, I like playing with digital action figures too. More than half my characters aren't IOed to the gills and don't seek to conquer every challenge in the game.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Honestly, that's a big part of where I think the disconnect lies. You seem to value achievement, and I personally really don't. Not for myself, not for others. I've always treated games more like toys than like a sport. This is my action figure simulator where the bulk of my fun is contained within making cool characters and having them do cool things. The "game" aspect of it, by which I mean the part where I as a player oppose the system, isn't terribly interesting to me. It's useful in the broadest sense, in that it gives me a much-needed direction, but I find no satisfaction in "beating" the system and "winning" the game. I mostly find satisfaction in playing around with the system.
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I think many people believe that my primary goal in this post is to complain about the Marketplace. It isn't. It's just a discussion. What the marketplace does is alter (to use Arcanaville's terminology) how I feel about the game. I don't feel it's a game anymore. It's much more what Sam says above. It's a place to play with toys. You can buy more toys if you want. You can earn some toys, but if you have problems earning those toys, the game will let you buy what you need to earn them. Now, I've not thought of City of Heroes as a particularly challenging game, but the existence of things that allow you to circumvent what challenge is there means that this is no longer a game at all to me. It's a place to create and play with concepts for super heroes. Nothing wrong with that. I can find games elsewhere.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Weirdly, my concern is just the opposite: That the base difficulty of the game is going to go up, either in response to people using the consumables, or (more cynically) as an incentive to get people to buy more of them. And someone like me, who is not a particularly brilliant player in the first place, and who isn't inclined to spend extra money beyond my subscription, is going to get slowly squeezed out.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Now, I've not thought of City of Heroes as a particularly challenging game, but the existence of things that allow you to circumvent what challenge is there means that this is no longer a game at all to me.
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Let's see if I have enough room in my signature for this.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No, I'm saying that I like to ride pink bunnies through a sunlit moor on bank holiday while Yankee Doodle plays on a record-player that I have tied to the back of my head with giant zip-ties. No, seriously, re-read my post, I'm sure you'll find a way to claim that, too.
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Edit: Dammit, I don't.
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It's true. (How dare they.)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The real issue is has always been that other people exist, and they don't think what they're told to.
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I already used 'Stop Liking What I Don't Like' in another thread, someone else will have to post it here.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The real issue is has always been that other people exist, and they don't think what they're told to.
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I'd like to think that the folks in charge are smart enough to realize the difference between "here's a fun game, but it'd be more fun if you put a little money down" and "here's a game that's only fun if you put a little money down".|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
Weirdly, my concern is just the opposite: That the base difficulty of the game is going to go up, either in response to people using the consumables, or (more cynically) as an incentive to get people to buy more of them. And someone like me, who is not a particularly brilliant player in the first place, and who isn't inclined to spend extra money beyond my subscription, is going to get slowly squeezed out.
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Current evidence suggests that the folks in charge do get this, even if they have the occasional implementation hiccup.
--
Pauper
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They won't.|
Originally Posted by JKCarrier
Weirdly, my concern is just the opposite: That the base difficulty of the game is going to go up, either in response to people using the consumables, or (more cynically) as an incentive to get people to buy more of them. And someone like me, who is not a particularly brilliant player in the first place, and who isn't inclined to spend extra money beyond my subscription, is going to get slowly squeezed out.
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The people who get purples and such want to be overpowered. They don't want a challenge. Their goal is to beat the game through exploiting everything they can. Making the game harder would drive them away.
You just need to sell them an iwin button with a 10 minute timer, then every month sell a new one with 10 seconds shorter on the timer. They will pay, farm, or whatever for the tiniest fraction of being more overpowered.
But complaining that such things can be done is silly. I can play solitaire and ignore that others could stack the deck so they always win. What they can do does not affect what I do.
I do see grounds for complaint in temptation. If the game added a defeat all button to my powerbar which made the game boring if I used it, it would be there and not using it would be stupid. It is one thing to not put in a bunch of effort to be uber, it is another to have to deliberately gimp yourself.
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Your generalization is far too broad. I have a Dark/Dark that could be considered a 'purpled out DPS monster' with Hecatomb, Absolute Amazement and some Armageddon slotted, but that level of IO worth came over years of playing him and patiently getting drops. I do enjoy making my builds the best I can but I am by no means a power-mongering minmaxer. I left those days behind in Big Blizzard Fantasy MMO.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
The people who get purples and such want to be overpowered. They don't want a challenge. Their goal is to beat the game through exploiting everything they can. Making the game harder would drive them away.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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So then this entire "pay to win" argument sprang up from the ground all on its own? Is that why threads about it keep coming up? What a notorious subject!|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I realize that you have a really hard time shaking the idea that this is about other people, but it still isn't. Also, no one is demanding that you stop having fun, or even demand that anything is changed.
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Yes yes, I know that just because a few disgruntled forumites keep whining about it doesn't mean they automagically have the devs' ears. That still doesn't mean I might not pipe up when someone says something I don't agree with. They say it's a problem. I say that notion is dumb. There is no "pay to win". There's not even a "pay to play" anymore, unless you absolutely must have all that VIP goodness!
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I've been purpling out all of my Incarnated 50's and sometimes the computer controlled foes still have the audacity to defeat me!* How rude.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Your generalization is far too broad. I have a Dark/Dark that could be considered a 'purpled out DPS monster' with Hecatomb, Absolute Amazement and some Armageddon slotted, but that level of IO worth came over years of playing him and patiently getting drops. I do enjoy making my builds the best I can but I am by no means a power-mongering minmaxer. I left those days behind in Big Blizzard Fantasy MMO.
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*(Well OK, maybe just by the Knives of Vengeance and those level 54 Praetorian Robots in the trials. But still!)
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My favorite are the Talons of Vengeance and their headache-inducing wash-out-your-entire-screen-for-ten-seconds placed AoE sandfall/earthpuke powers. What's that? -Def, -Res, -Rec, -ToHit, -Dam and -Speed all in the same attack INCLUDING the inability to see anything on your screen other than baby-vomit brown and random stones shooting upwards? Sounds great, sign me up two days after NEVER.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
*(Well OK, maybe just by the Knives of Vengeance and those level 54 Praetorian Robots in the trials. But still!)
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Seriously? LOL|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No, I'm saying that I like to ride pink bunnies through a sunlit moor on bank holiday while Yankee Doodle plays on a record-player that I have tied to the back of my head with giant zip-ties. No, seriously, re-read my post, I'm sure you'll find a way to claim that, too.
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| Congratulations on debunking an argument nobody actually made |
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Seriously! What's up with that! They always murder my MMs*. The rest of my purpled out Incarnated 50's, not so much.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
My favorite are the Talons of Vengeance and their headache-inducing wash-out-your-entire-screen-for-ten-seconds placed AoE sandfall/earthpuke powers. What's that? -Def, -Res, -Rec, -ToHit, -Dam and -Speed all in the same attack INCLUDING the inability to see anything on your screen other than baby-vomit brown and random stones shooting upwards? Sounds great, sign me up two days after NEVER.
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*(Well, my MMs get away and my pets manage to kill 'em all just before they themselves eat it, but... you know! Then I have to resummon! -- Actually, my bots are more survivable than my thugs! -- EDIT: My thugs/poison MM isn't as purpled out yet as my bots/traps MM.)
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Or, alternatively, there is no one uniform "Pay-To-Win-Complaint-Conspiracy". The feelings expressed by EG, Sam or even myself may, or may not, accurately reflect previous threads on the subject (or even each other).|
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
So then this entire "pay to win" argument sprang up from the ground all on its own? Is that why threads about it keep coming up? What a notorious subject!
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See, that's where you went wrong. You think you're in a duplicate thread. You're not, and you seem to be having a really hard time coming to terms with this.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
I'd just like to say that other than the hyperbole which sneaks in at times I've found this to be an amazing thread.
EDIT: To state an opinion on the matter:
I've played a few other FTP MMO's, and quite a few of those were blatant Pay to Win games. This is, by far, the most tame free-to-play game I've ever worked with. The *only* thing you can do easily with the market that is virtually impossible otherwise is Enhancement Boosters, because doing it through the game system would be incredibly expensive. Even ATOs are doable in-game; they'd take several weeks of dedicated teaming to fully slot out a character but it's completely doable.
That said, they need to be careful about costumes. They're beginning to overdo it a bit in the Market with the new gear... most players love them some costumes.
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But costumes are one of the things in the Paragon Market that the devs know are pretty safe to charge for. |
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
That said, they need to be careful about costumes. They're beginning to overdo it a bit in the Market with the new gear... most players love them some costumes.
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We're been happily paying a little extra for new costume pieces for a long time now, via super boosters prior to the market. As long as the prices don't get much higher than they are now, we'll remain happy with it. $5 for a costume set is reasonable, when you consider that the Super Boosters were $10 a pop.
There really aren't any pay to win arguments that can be made for costume pieces being purchasable. They do need to release a few new textures and pieces for free too though.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I've always found it interesting that folks who play MMOs and deeply care about customization never pushed back stronger on this point. While in most MMOs putting rare loot in the item shop is a no-no (or at least causes consternation, like here) it's been totally fine with most people to put cosmetic gear in. I know some folks here complain about it, but I hardly see it elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But costumes are one of the things in the Paragon Market that the devs know are pretty safe to charge for.
... There really aren't any pay to win arguments that can be made for costume pieces being purchasable. They do need to release a few new textures and pieces for free too though. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I am really enjoying this thread, and all the thought-provoking comments. I thought it would be another "oh, this is HORRIBLE, you dirty devs!" followed by 37 million replies stating that the OP is jerk. Instead, it's an insightful conversation, with only a minimum of "you jerk" comments, all easily ignored.
I did want to add the comment that some of what I see the dev's doing (and I think it has to be deliberate) is to make some of the "phat lewtz" more accessible to more players. The fact that anyone can go out and buy purples, or other expensive sets, has devalued those sets, making them easier to buy on the market. In addition, they've added catalysts, so no one's saying "yay, I got a purple drop! Oh. Crap. It's a sleep." They've also added alignment merits. And not only can we get one of these every 2 days from tips, they're also the reward for SSA's. That makes ANY desirable IO, even the pvp ones, accessible to anyone with a VIP account. Sure, you still have to work for them. But no one (VIP) considers them unattainable any more, either.
That's huge. I've seen people suddenly start to try to attain these things, and really work for them, and become much more involved in the game.
The store-bought enhancements allow people who generally enjoy the game but really hate marketing, get more involved, too. The fact that store-bought IO's can be slotted early, and level up with the player, means they never, ever have to mess with crafting. Those folks no longer feel that their much-loved characters are gimped because they can't stand the in-game money aspect of the CoH.
The "pay-to-win" option of the game has always been available via RMT's. I know people who have bought influence, and I bet most people reading this have, too. The difference now is that people are buying it from the game, instead of from spammers, which is a good thing on a lot of different levels. There have always been easy ways out of stuff people don't want to do in-game. Before AE exploits, there was PLing, and bridging and a million "pad my team" tells.
My comments are not meant in any way as criticism to other posters, most especially the OP. I think there are very valid points being said. My intent is to point out that there is a non-exploitative side to things available in the market. There is a side to it that is very inclusive and positive.
Are there still people with more money than brains running around? Sure. But my personal experience is that I see more people I know enjoying the game more, because they can focus their interests on the parts of the game they like, and not feel that the game is meant for someone else, not them.
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And I bet you're wrong. |
Originally Posted by _eeek_
I know people who have bought influence, and I bet most people reading this have, too.
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Buying influence from RMTers is an activity that I would not suspect very many of the posters in this thread of doing. If any at all.
If you meant that most of the people reading that know someone who has, you are probably correct in that.
But if you truly meant that most people have bought influence, I would wager you are mistaken in that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If you have to buy Inf, you've failed at this game.
Seriously. Making money is NOT HARD.
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